Bike Fit
Moderators: Bearbonesnorm, Taylor, Chew
- mountainbaker
- Posts: 1161
- Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2013 1:34 pm
- Location: Devon
Bike Fit
On Monday past, I rode up to The Bicycle Academy to do the Bike Fitting and Design Masterclass. It was just a one day overview of bike design and custom fitting. We spent the day, one to one, doing a fitting/measurement setup for myself for both a road setup (which I had with me) and for a frame for Tour Divide next year.
Tony had heaps of great advice, which I'm not sure most people are aware of. I had no idea that saddle setback can have such a big effect on your comfort, my saddle was way too far forward, and too high, causing my knees to over-extend.
He also told me about mid-foot cleat positioning, something a lot of RAAM racers go for, as it reduces fatige. I'm not prepared to take a drill to my brand new disco slippers, so we moved my cleats as far back as they can go, which is about 30mm back from where I had them before. This, plus better saddle placement, an insole shim in my right shoe for a twisted pelvis, and correct bar height/reach, makes a massive difference. Riding back from Frome to mine in the evening (about 60 miles) I noticed straight away that I could climb in the saddle much more than before, and fatigue took a lot longer to set in. Also spending less time out of the saddle climbing meant I wasn't so wasted at the top of a climb. My cadence is buttery smooth too. Today went out on the MTB with tweaks from the measurement, and wow, less fatigue, two KOMs and way more comfort.
If you're having little issues with when riding, it's probably because of your setup, get someone to help you out with it!
Off the back of this, I have sent final geometry off to my favourite russian titanium framebuilder to make me a bike for tour divide. Sweet!
I'm guessing other people have experience of bike fits, I'd be interested to hear about them...
Tony had heaps of great advice, which I'm not sure most people are aware of. I had no idea that saddle setback can have such a big effect on your comfort, my saddle was way too far forward, and too high, causing my knees to over-extend.
He also told me about mid-foot cleat positioning, something a lot of RAAM racers go for, as it reduces fatige. I'm not prepared to take a drill to my brand new disco slippers, so we moved my cleats as far back as they can go, which is about 30mm back from where I had them before. This, plus better saddle placement, an insole shim in my right shoe for a twisted pelvis, and correct bar height/reach, makes a massive difference. Riding back from Frome to mine in the evening (about 60 miles) I noticed straight away that I could climb in the saddle much more than before, and fatigue took a lot longer to set in. Also spending less time out of the saddle climbing meant I wasn't so wasted at the top of a climb. My cadence is buttery smooth too. Today went out on the MTB with tweaks from the measurement, and wow, less fatigue, two KOMs and way more comfort.
If you're having little issues with when riding, it's probably because of your setup, get someone to help you out with it!
Off the back of this, I have sent final geometry off to my favourite russian titanium framebuilder to make me a bike for tour divide. Sweet!
I'm guessing other people have experience of bike fits, I'd be interested to hear about them...
Re: Bike Fit
I'm a bit of a bike-fitting sceptic but it sounds like they know what they're doing there and you had a good result. Formulas and 'fit systems' can be a load of data-averaging rubbish that works by chance for road bikes, but advice such as you seem to have had eg
I've had a fairly poor experience with a bike fitting service as well as meeting a few people in that area who seem to echo a lot of what I've learned from ergonomics relating to bike frame designs, so it can vary.
can really help. Understanding the details of cleat fit / footbeds etc is way beyond my experience but the simple principles of balancing a rider on a bike -and correct saddle setback is key for long distance bikes- can make so much difference.I had no idea that saddle setback can have such a big effect on your comfort
I've had a fairly poor experience with a bike fitting service as well as meeting a few people in that area who seem to echo a lot of what I've learned from ergonomics relating to bike frame designs, so it can vary.
- mountainbaker
- Posts: 1161
- Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2013 1:34 pm
- Location: Devon
Re: Bike Fit
Oh yeah, first thing he did was draw a stick man on a bike, with all the angle ranges that most bike fit "experts" look for. Then he told me it's a load or rubbish. Like you said, it's about balancing someone on the bike, starting with saddle height and setback, then bar height/reach. We also look at crank length too. Tony has vast experience, having worked all over the world doing bike fit/physio work, and it really shows. My local physio offers a bike fit service, and from what I can deduce, he just gets you on a bike, and uses an ipad app to get all the angles of your joints. Which is basically missing the point.
Re: Bike Fit
So generally you are further back than you were currently riding? How far behind the BB are you now?
Not being awkward, just asking.
I have just bought a new frame as I felt I had too much weight on my hands, and I was too far forward with the seat; the plan being to raise the bar height and try a slightly more aft position a la Jones etc.
do you have any before/after pics to give us an idea? Might save me the cost of a Jones frame as I fear that may well be the inevitable "end point" for a solution
Not being awkward, just asking.
I have just bought a new frame as I felt I had too much weight on my hands, and I was too far forward with the seat; the plan being to raise the bar height and try a slightly more aft position a la Jones etc.
do you have any before/after pics to give us an idea? Might save me the cost of a Jones frame as I fear that may well be the inevitable "end point" for a solution
Re: Bike Fit
'Makes note to do frame building course at TBA if I ever do one' : )Then he told me it's a load or rubbish.
Edit, Tony you say, was it Tony Corke?
Last edited by jameso on Sat Jul 05, 2014 9:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Bike Fit
Gari, fwiw my Jones has about a 72 degree seat angle I think, so it's nothing unusual that you couldn't get with a longer layback post on many bikes (10mm more or less setback = about a degree on the seat angle for average saddle height)
- mountainbaker
- Posts: 1161
- Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2013 1:34 pm
- Location: Devon
Re: Bike Fit
Yes, Tony Corke. Top chap.
Re: Bike Fit
Cheers James, the KM came with a layback post hence the WTD ad for a shorter matching stem, hoping that helps a bit. Looking back at the pictures of my Singular the seat was well behind the BB, and apart from being a little stretched(which could have been sorted with a shorter stem obviously!) it was great for my legs and knees. I don't recall ever getting cramp in my hamstrings or sore/stiff knees.
Re: Bike Fit
Agreed - a very experienced guy.mountainbaker wrote:Yes, Tony Corke. Top chap.
- mountainbaker
- Posts: 1161
- Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2013 1:34 pm
- Location: Devon
Re: Bike Fit
Something else that occurred to me today, a lot of Triathletes (especially Ironman competitors) are going for mid-sole cleat position, the justification being that this position puts less stress on your achilles and also uses the calf muscles significantly less, so when they finish their 110 mile ride and start a marathon, the running components of their legs are relatively fresh. I wonder if this would help for the mountains of hike-a-bike on races like the HTR550. Sounds like a few people had foot/ankle problems, maybe something like this could be useful...
Re: Bike Fit
During my strained Achilles recovery, I rode the bike with flats on for a while, and placing the axle mid foot was the only way to relieve the discomfort. Since getting some new shoes, I've set the cleats back a bit compared to my previous ones, but will probably move them back further.
Joe Friel has written a bit about cleat position, and greater power resulting from a mid-sole mouted cleat
Joe Friel has written a bit about cleat position, and greater power resulting from a mid-sole mouted cleat
Re: Bike Fit
If you climb steep rocky stuff on foot you can't do it for long on 'tip toes' and you need to get more of your foot engaged to prevent fatigue. And the best bit of advice I had for the TD was not to 'ankle' as I pedaled, no supple roadie pedaling and all flat-foot novice style to reduce stress on the achilles. It worked, when I felt twinges I pedaled more flat-footed than ever and seemed to keep any real pain at bay. So maybe there's wisdom in rearward-fitted cleats. Maybe need the saddle position and crank length to take it into account?
- mountainbaker
- Posts: 1161
- Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2013 1:34 pm
- Location: Devon
Re: Bike Fit
Yeah, the further back your cleats, the lower your saddle goes. Tony also advised me to go for 165 cranks for TD, as they reduce knee/achilles stress significantly, whilst studies have shown that shorter cranks make almost no difference to power delivery! So I'll be getting some shorter cranks for the new build for sure, especially as I have one bad knee with some ACL damage and frayed meniscus.
Went for another ride today, on the road bike, with shorter stem as prescribed from the fit on Monday, basically, lots of power, virtually all my climbs were in the saddle, and PRs. And at the end of 50+ miles, I feel like I've done 20 miles on my old setup. I'm still pretty amazed how much difference all this has made. 200 mile week, and I'm pretty fresh.
Went for another ride today, on the road bike, with shorter stem as prescribed from the fit on Monday, basically, lots of power, virtually all my climbs were in the saddle, and PRs. And at the end of 50+ miles, I feel like I've done 20 miles on my old setup. I'm still pretty amazed how much difference all this has made. 200 mile week, and I'm pretty fresh.
- mountainbaker
- Posts: 1161
- Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2013 1:34 pm
- Location: Devon
Re: Bike Fit
Ian, slam your cleats right back, drop the saddle a fair bit, and raise it 2mm at a time until you can tell one or both your knees are over-extending, then drop is 2mm again, that was basically the process I went through with Tony.
Hope the achilles is recovering well.
Hope the achilles is recovering well.
- ZeroDarkBivi
- Posts: 1267
- Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2014 9:18 am
- Location: Somerset
Re: Bike Fit
My experience of bike fits was not great, and as the process becomes more automated with systems like Retul, many so-called fitters have become less knowledgable, relying on what 'computer says', which is just averaging the numbers rather than focussing on an individuals needs. I am lucky enough to live a short drive away from TBA, and will be booking a visit soon.
Who are you getting the new Ti frame from?
Who are you getting the new Ti frame from?
- mountainbaker
- Posts: 1161
- Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2013 1:34 pm
- Location: Devon
Re: Bike Fit
Yeah, we talked about reliance on Retül, and how it affects the quality of the bikefit. Definitely worth visiting TBA, it's not a 'bike fit' as such, more a one day class about bike fitting and frame design, but you can do it specific to you and your requirements.
I'm getting my frame made by Triton in Moscow, this'll be my third frame from Dmitry, super high quality, and build exactly to my geometry/details spec. Also a great guy to deal with.
http://tritonbikes.com/
I'm getting my frame made by Triton in Moscow, this'll be my third frame from Dmitry, super high quality, and build exactly to my geometry/details spec. Also a great guy to deal with.
http://tritonbikes.com/
Re: Bike Fit
Interesting stuff, I enjoy reading and taking in lots of different thoughts and opinions on bike fitting.
I first read about this in passing, looked a bit more into it and found a whole can of worms for arguments going full spectrum for and against on this matter.mountainbaker wrote: He also told me about mid-foot cleat positioning, something a lot of RAAM racers go for, as it reduces fatige.
- mountainbaker
- Posts: 1161
- Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2013 1:34 pm
- Location: Devon
Re: Bike Fit
Yeah, I'm sure there's loads of for and against crap on the interwebs. I guess it's one of those things, you need to try it for yourself, ride for a while and see if you get on with it. I've not gone fully mid-foot, as that requires drilling shoes, but slamming the cleats back is better than before for certain.
Re: Bike Fit
Cleats back 15mm, saddle dropped 8mm. Feels ok down the road. Proper test this evening.mountainbaker wrote:Ian, slam your cleats right back, drop the saddle a fair bit, and raise it 2mm at a time until you can tell one or both your knees are over-extending, then drop is 2mm again, that was basically the process I went through with Tony.
Hope the achilles is recovering well.
What was the rationale for you having your saddle further back? Was it to put the knee in a particular place relative to the pedal axle?
- mountainbaker
- Posts: 1161
- Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2013 1:34 pm
- Location: Devon
Re: Bike Fit
From what I remember, as it was a lot to take in in a day, it's about your 'balance' when not holding onto the bars, hard to explain, but as we fiddled with things, when the saddle was further back, my centre of gravity moved back too, so I was less inclined to lean on my hands so heavily, which is important for all day riding of course.
I guess it also has an effect on your knee position over the pedal axle, but we've also changed that by moving the shoe forward (cleat backwards).
I guess it also has an effect on your knee position over the pedal axle, but we've also changed that by moving the shoe forward (cleat backwards).
Re: Bike Fit
Thanks. Reason I asked was if anything I felt my saddle could come forward a touch. Will leave as it is for now, to save changing too many things at once.
Re: Bike Fit
OK, so there might be something in this: http://www.strava.com/activities/163812195
Pointed the bike up some of the steepest hills round here and rode them much more comfortably (in terms of effort) than ever before. 1 KOM, 3 PR's.
Back home now & feeling fairly fresh
Will give it another go on a longer/ hillier ride at the weekend and see how we go.
Pointed the bike up some of the steepest hills round here and rode them much more comfortably (in terms of effort) than ever before. 1 KOM, 3 PR's.
Back home now & feeling fairly fresh
Will give it another go on a longer/ hillier ride at the weekend and see how we go.
- mountainbaker
- Posts: 1161
- Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2013 1:34 pm
- Location: Devon
Re: Bike Fit
Ian, just saw your ride on strava, then came here. Good work! Glad it seems to make a difference.
- mountainbaker
- Posts: 1161
- Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2013 1:34 pm
- Location: Devon
Re: Bike Fit
Crazyness, just did a relatively gentle 40 miles on the mtb. 5 top 10 placings, and 5 other PRs. Bike. Fit. Counts.