What did I do wrong?

[gairym]

So.....last night I slept out in -9°c (felt colder as I was higher than where the weather report was based) with what I presumed was sufficient cold weather gear only to find that I was absolutely bloody freezing all night long!

Here's what I took:

Tent: Six Moons Designs 'Skyscape Scout'
Mat: Mammut 'Comfort Pump Mat'
Bag: Mountain Hardwear 'Spectre SL 20'

Clothing (worn when going to bed):

Gore windproof bib tights
Smartwool Merino LS baselayer
Sealskinz waterproof socks
Thin Rab beanie thing

Clothing (wearing when I decided to get up and leave as further sleep wasn't an option and hypothermia was looking likely):

The above plus.....
Howies baggy shorts
Pair of ski socks
Rab 'Infinity' jacket
Thick (and usually toasty warm) wooly beanie

Other factors:

- Nice location away from water sources and in the trees protected from wind.
- No fatigue to speak of (only a 3 mile ride from the house).
- Ate well all day and then had sufficient food before going to bed.
- Stayed dry and so no wet down issues.

I'm thinking that (despite the mat being rated R4.1) there simply wasn't enough insulation from the ground to keep the cold at bay but.....

If you got any insights into why I had such a piss poor sleep (I actually had a great time other than the cold!) then I'd love to hear your thoughts as I need to be able to stay warm in these sorts of conditions if I'm to be able to get out for 6 months of the year!!!

I also don't want to buy a crap-load of new gear and so quick and easy fixes are most welcome.

The other thing I've learned is that there is a world of difference between clothing that will keep me warm when leaving the house riding into -9°c (starting warm and fresh) and clothing that will make me warm starting from being bloody freezing and have spent over an hour packing away all of my kit in the snow - an important lesson I think!

Any opinions/thoughts/help appreciate as always.

Cheers, Gairy.

[Bearbonesnorm]

You timed that well, I've just written the first piece of several about trying to stay warm: http://bearbonesbikepacking.blogspot.co.uk/

With regard to 'what did you do wrong' it would seem not much. You might be right about the mat, on frozen ground you're really looking for a mat with an R value as close to 6 as possible and certainly above 5.

Were you warm before you got in your pit?

Had you sweated on the ride in?

Buy a Zippo/Whitby type handwarmer and throw that in your bag.

[Bearbonesnorm]

There's a chance (but couldn't say for sure) that it was cold enough that respiration heat loss might have been a factor ... try breathing through something like a buff, etc. It'll warm the air and increase the humidity before it gets to your lungs.

[Gari]

Having had a quick look at the mat and bag I have a couple of thoughts.
The bag is rated at around -6 yes? so a little colder than that, but you were wearing xtra gear so that shouldn't be too much of an issue. Problem is that sleeping bag ratings are a bit of a murky area. When it say 20f, does it mean "comfort" or "extreme" for example? One means that you will be comfortable at those temps, obviously , the other means that you will survive the night, but you probably won't be comfortable at all. Some people feel the cold more than others, most people conflate "feeling" cold with "being" cold, not always the same thing.
The mat I think is pretty marginal for these conditions, looking at the spec etc. As Stuart points out the R rating is pretty much on the edge of what I would use this time of year. As a general rule I would always look to improve my ground insulation in these type of conditions, better a good mat with an ok bag than great bag with an ok mat IMO.
A distinction; clothing only ever keeps you warm, it doesn't make you warm. If you put cold water into a thermos(sleeping bag, jacket etc), you get cold water out.
Last but not least, I have a Rab bag, rated at around 3deg, that I have slept in down to -6 with just a thin set of thermals, and was fine. I have also used it at around 0/-1 and no matter what I wore I could not get warm enough to nod off. Some nights are worse than others for no apparent reason. worth trying again to be sure?
Gari

[Adrian Brewster]

At the risk of invoking phrases that involve the words "grandmother", "sucking" and "eggs" but guess you have discounted katabatic air. You said that you were pitched above the -9 forecast but if you were in a valley or gulley higher than that then far colder dense air could be sliding off higher altitudes and pooling where you were pitched so it could have really been -15, or causing some extra wind chill. That is part of the reason alpine villages tend to be built slightly higher up valley sides. See Ray Jardine etc on katabatic air. I always take a watch with thermometer in winter and leave it outside the bag for reassurance and a nerdy interest in how well gear is working or not. Apologies if I'm stating the bleedin obvious.

[greenmug]

If you are cold before getting into the bag it will be difficult to get warm unless the temperature factors of the kit are way more than the conditions. I was bivying two nights ago and got into the bag (and slept most of night) in an Alpkit Filo. Even with a good 4 season Rab down bag it was needed until I had warmed up. Temp was just below zero (little bit of ice in puddles).

I used to live/work in the Antarctic and when camping in snow there even at a -10C the kit would consist of a wooden board + sheepskin before starting on the regular bivy kit. (inside tent).

One golden tip I picked up is the standard Nelgene bottles (very wide plastic screw top ones) can cope easily with boiling water. Therefore as well as a water bottle they act as a brilliant hot water bottle. Particularly brilliant at the bottom the bag if feet have frozen. In the morning, it can be the first drink before setting off.

[Bearbonesnorm]

Oh yes, we get plenty of temp inversions living in the bottom of a high, steep sided valley ... you can see that once the valley sides drop it all becomes lovely and green (rather than something from Narnia).

Obviously as Adrian says, you'd be much better perched on the open hill side than you would in the sheltered valley bottom ... I wish they'd realised that in 1568

[Cheeky Monkey]

The improvised hot water bottle us a common hangers tip. Also good next to major, shallow blood vessels e.g. in the groin. Warms the body / blood that then circulates.

Raising body temp before bed with hot food / drink and/or some exercise before jumping in the pit might help.

As others have mentioned a weather forecast might not reflect actual temps at your bivi.

If you can bare the weight/bulk a section of decent closed cell foam mat could cheaply and easily supplement the mat.

[voodoo_simon]

If i'm right, this is the spec for the bag
Comfort Temp: -1°C
Limit Temp: -7°C
Extreme Temp: -25°C

For customers to my store, I would say the -1c is for people who feel the cold and women (they generally feel the cold more), whilst the -7c is ok for someone who sleeps warm (and those people who insist on wearing shorts and t shirts in December!). The -25c is the extreme rating, you'll have the most miserable night of your life and will get no sleep. Basic guide but not too far off. For me, with those temperatures, I'd be reckoning -4c would be about right for me.

The ratings are also based on a warm body getting into the bag, well hydrated and fed. Its also based on the user wearing clothes (think powerstretch top and tights), something that most people don't realise!

I've also been told that placing your down coat over the bag and not sleeping in it is warmer but its not always easy to do that in a bivy bag.

As the others have said, better insulation from the mats would make imrovements to your system and maybe facing to the east would help to warm up in the morning :D

[TheBrownDog]

This happened to me on a quick overnighter in the woods two weeks ago. It was -2 and I was using kit Ive used in far colder weather but was I was freezing. I'd had no booze and was properly hydrated, was wearing what has been more than adequate clothes etc etc etc. I'm putting it down to getting older and softer and using it as leverage to get an Exped Downmat. Yes, more kit. That's got to be the solution … :)

[Bearbonesnorm]

I've also been told that placing your down coat over the bag and not sleeping in it is warmer but its not always easy to do that in a bivy bag.

I'd suggest placing a jacket over you (rather than wearing it) but inside the sleeping bag rather than on top of it ... stops the jacket compressing your bag.

[voodoo_simon]

I'd suggest placing a jacket over you (rather than wearing it) but inside the sleeping bag rather than on top of it ... stops the jacket compressing your bag.

Now, why have I never thought of that That's a much better solution (mines fallen off in the past, so gave up and sleep in mine). Cheers :D

[Ray Young]

I sometimes find my top half is warm but my legs are cold, I zip up my down jacket and slid the bottom of my sleeping bag into it. Works a treat.

[slarge]

When did you last eat? I find that eating helps keep me warm, at the el n back last year I kept getting cold (it was about -5) and I kept waking up, having a piece of chocolate, that generated heat for an hour then I was cold again. Going to bed with a full stomach will help keep you warm.

[gairym]

WOW - lots of ideas and advice. Thanks folks!

Ok, where to start.....

Stuart, I was plenty warm from the ride there but not sweaty when getting into the tent/bag. Also, I don't think it was 'respiration heat loss' as I had my head stuck in the bag and so was breathing relatively warm air.

I think that the mat is a big part of the problem but an easily solvable part as I've got a 2/3 length Thermarest 'Ridgerest' (R rating of 2.8) which I'll try next time (will give a total R rating of a whopping 6.9!!!).

Gari, after doing some further reading it would seem that Mountain Hardwear's ratings do state the 'limit' temperature in their name (e.g. Spectre SL 20) which is a bit misleading!

Every single time I've used the bag before I've been way too hot and so presumed that I had it right thinking that it's comfort rating (not limit) was -7°c - bugger!

Adrian, oooh, I like the idea of being able to blame 'katabatic air' instead of having to admit to being a bit of a pussy! Having looked into this further it seems that there may be some of this going on in the Chamonix valley but I've no idea of how to tell if this was the case or not in this particular instance???

Greenmug, nope - plenty warm enough when getting into the tent/bag. I like the idea of a Nalgene bottle filled with water but I didn't have any cooking/heating kit with me yesterday as I only left the house after dinner (good tip for the future though!).

Cheeky Monkey, yeah the Ridgerest will be packed next time for sure!

voodoo_simon, thanks - those spec's look about right with what I researched today but I've got no memory of that being the case when I bought the thing a year or so ago??? I was sure it was comfort rated down to -7°c but it appears I was wrong!

TheBrownDog, too right! I hadn't considered the 'old git' factor as this could quite easily the problem.

Ray, I've had that too but last night is was all of me and I decided to use the down jacket on my body to maximise general internal heat (to no avail!).

slarge, I'd eaten just before getting into bed (as well as having eaten normally/well all day before hand and so it shouldn't have been that???

All,

After reading all of the above and doing my own research it doesn't seem surprising that I was cold seeing as:

- My mat was on the lower end of being suitable for the conditions.
- The sleeping bag is rated worse than I realised and so was also a little lacking.
- I may well have been a victim of a serious 'katabatic air' incident!
- I'm getting old, fat(ter) and more of a jessie each and every day.

On top of which I've been without a decent nights sleep for the last month or so since our new little lad was born and I reckon this might be a factor too!

So.....my plan for next time is to try it with the closed-cell mat underneath the main mat and to find a spot further up the mountain (not much just off the valley floor).

If this fails then I've already done a sniff of research into new (4 season bags).

Anyone got anything better/cheaper to suggest than a Mammut 'Montona 4' for the price/weight/warmth ratio?????

Thanks again for taking the time/effort to help!

Cheers, Gairy.

[Eoghan]

Outstanding knowledge from people there. Some of it familiar, loads of it not, so this is bookmarked. Not sure I have anything to add.

[Zoglug]

It has been a very interesting read, though has made me a little nervous about my solstice plans in the Peaks! Granted i dont expect the weather to hit -9, but i also dont have the gear others do.