Great British Divide

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Mart
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Great British Divide

Post by Mart »

The riders are a couple of days into it.
Anyone else following?

https://greatbritishdivide2022.maprogress.com/
2924 miles per Gallon
Johnallan
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Re: Great British Divide

Post by Johnallan »

I've no idea what the terrain is like but 600km in the first 2 days seems a strong start :-bd
slarge
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Re: Great British Divide

Post by slarge »

There's a big gap betweenthe front few and the rest - I guess that's the (lack of) sleep strategy coming in to play.

It seems like a race that hasn't caught the imagination yet, whereas the Pan Celtic race has really taken off.
Johnallan
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Re: Great British Divide

Post by Johnallan »

slarge wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 10:35 am
It seems like a race that hasn't caught the imagination yet, whereas the Pan Celtic race has really taken off.
That's social media for you. The Pan Celtic crew (sorry, clan.. ) share more pretty pictures
riderdown
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Re: Great British Divide

Post by riderdown »

They are racing on bridleways in England and Wales?
Lazarus
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Re: Great British Divide

Post by Lazarus »

Of course not it's a timed reliability test or some such
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GregMay
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Re: Great British Divide

Post by GregMay »

riderdown wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 12:12 pm They are racing on bridleways in England and Wales?
It's "not a race"

Don't stress it and move on.
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riderdown
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Re: Great British Divide

Post by riderdown »

Does that mean they are all "winners" not just the ones one get called that......?
Lazarus
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Re: Great British Divide

Post by Lazarus »

Why not make your point explicitly ? its not STW just like that event is not a race
riderdown
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Re: Great British Divide

Post by riderdown »

Why not make your point explicitly ? its not STW just like that event is not a race
Not sure where you are coming from, are we not supposed to ask questions or is there some "in" groupthink I am missing? I am searching for another word for an event that posts "results" said results have "positions" which are ranked based on finishing times.

Just writing that it's "not a race " on the home page doesn't make it so.

I note that the Dales Divide had problems with participants not closing gates and giving farmers an earful when asked to go back and close them. Why would anyone behave like that?
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Bearbonesnorm
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Re: Great British Divide

Post by Bearbonesnorm »

Not sure where you are coming from, are we not supposed to ask questions or is there some "in" groupthink I am missing? I am searching for another word for an event that posts "results" said results have "positions" which are ranked based on finishing times.
Not at all. I think it's just something that's been discussed at some lengths over the years. It's very much a grey area and will likely always remain one. I completely agree that it's very difficult to say something isn't a race then post peoples times and have a 'winner'.
Why would anyone behave like that?
My best guess is that it's because some people are cocks and they take both riding bikes and themselves far too seriously. Obviously, the instances of cockage will only likely increase as the popularity of 'this' does. More people = more cocks.
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Lazarus
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Re: Great British Divide

Post by Lazarus »

Yes free speech is encouraged [thanks for respecting me when i exercised it ] but IMHO its better to say things explicitly , with your free speech and be clear, which you have done , thanks.

What stu sad its a grey area where they try to pretend/ensure/insist [ delete as per your preference] its not a race, so its technically not, even if someone wins- though its obvious to see why someone would shoot down that argument.
Isnt every ITT pretty much run like this and will continue to be done this way - even its just FKT?
Same think happens on roads there is a LEJOG "race" as well - that is definitely termed a timed reliability trial- we also have the fastest LEJOG times so we all know racing goes on on the road and on BW even though its not , technically, allowed.
For me it like cheeky trails or wild camping - whatever we personally think its going to happen so lets try and encourage it to be done responsibly.
As for why folk dont close gates its because they are arses who dont respect the countryside. I very much doubt they are any different when not racing - perhaps they did it because someone else will be along in a minute but its not the correct action
Tomwoodbury
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Re: Great British Divide

Post by Tomwoodbury »

I’m following as I’ve ridden with one of the riders a few times - Craig Bunyan. Super fit and a really nice bloke.
riderdown
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Re: Great British Divide

Post by riderdown »

More people = more cocks
And more nice people,

Those taking part are far fitter than I am, hopefully will close the gates and probably have a great time

I think solo/informal FKTs attempts probably skirt away from being a race as there is no organisation, no broom wagon, no start list, no positions. But rider attitude probably can still suck, or be an inspiration, or somewhere in the middle

Start list, organisation, sponsors, and probably most importantly "position" for finishers, looks like a race to me
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Bearbonesnorm
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Re: Great British Divide

Post by Bearbonesnorm »

And more nice people,
Yeah but in truth I tend to only notice the cocks :wink:
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GregMay
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Re: Great British Divide

Post by GregMay »

Bearbonesnorm wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 8:14 pm
And more nice people,
Yeah but in truth I tend to only notice the cocks :wink:
They often stick out.

*I'll get my coat*
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labrat
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Re: Great British Divide

Post by labrat »

Let's be clear. ITT's & FKT's are still illegal on Bridleways in England and Wales

S31 Road Traffic Act 1988 specifically outlaws any form of race or trial of speed on a public way (any highway), unless done according to regulations. Those regulations identify two types of event - cycle racing and time trials - and the method and means by which they can be authorised (although those regulations can still not authorise either racing or time trials on bridleways).

If its a competitive event between one or more people seeking to beat each other or beat the clock, even if they are not competing at the same time, then it is a trial of speed its covered by the legislation. simple as that, and all the sophistry in the world doesn't get away from that.

It's great for a minority of the cycling community to pretend to themselves that they are cleverer than the law - but they simply aren't, and sooner or later someone is going to come a cropper. Audaxes and reliability trials are very clear, and run under careful rules that ensure that anyone seeking to 'beat the clock' is unable to do so. These riders are not doing an audit, they are embarking on a trial of speed (and as we have seen, certain FKT devotees have videos their efforts, published times and invited/egged on others to try and beat them). The evidence is all out there to see.

I predict that the way that is going to happen will involve an inquest, and an event organiser having to stand in front of a barrister trying to justify his decision to organise an event which was not only illegal, but that sought to push riders to the literal point of exhaustion, and pertinent questions being asked about why they thought that was appropriate on the public highway, putting both the riders (for whom the organiser has a duty of care) and other highway users at risk.

Uncomfortable truth - these are the questions that should have been asked in the aftermath of Mike Hall's death (and I say that having known Mike since he was at school)
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Bearbonesnorm
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Re: Great British Divide

Post by Bearbonesnorm »

While I agree that 'the day in court' may come, if the letter of the law is strictly followed, then I'd estimate that about 80% of cycling events that take place off-road are technically illegal. That would include some big well know events that have major backing and even some supported by UK cycling organisations.. It would also effectively make a criminal of anyone who has or even simply tried to gain a Strava KOM.
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Lazarus
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Re: Great British Divide

Post by Lazarus »

You just have to deal with the world as it is rather than wanting " no races "
Clearly illegality is not preventing them and I cannot see them being a policing priority anytime soon with plod dot watching to arrest folk

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* I say all when I should say both !
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Bearbonesnorm
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Re: Great British Divide

Post by Bearbonesnorm »

All * my KOMa were accidental
But can you prove that in court :wink:
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Lazarus
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Re: Great British Divide

Post by Lazarus »

As hard for me to prove in court as you to prove a BB200 is suitable for a bike :lol:
labrat
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Re: Great British Divide

Post by labrat »

Lazarus wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 9:35 pm You just have to deal with the world as it is rather than wanting " no races "
Clearly illegality is not preventing them and I cannot see them being a policing priority anytime soon with plod dot watching to arrest folk

All * my KOMa were accidental

* I say all when I should say both !
Yeah, illegality doesn't prevent car drivers speeding or going through red lights either - I guess we should probably just shrug our shoulders and deal with the world as it is rather than thinking these things matter.
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RIP
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Re: Great British Divide

Post by RIP »

labrat wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 12:18 pm
Lazarus wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 9:35 pm You just have to deal with the world as it is rather than wanting " no races "
Clearly illegality is not preventing them and I cannot see them being a policing priority anytime soon with plod dot watching to arrest folk

All * my KOMa were accidental

* I say all when I should say both !
Yeah, illegality doesn't prevent car drivers speeding or going through red lights either - I guess we should probably just shrug our shoulders and deal with the world as it is rather than thinking these things matter.
Aye, and of course the problem isn't the constabulary 'watching and waiting to nick someone', it's when something bad actually happens which cannot be covered up and will be pounced upon immediately (and make front page news - look at the recent velodrome shennanigans).

Having mentioned individual 'K[Q! :smile: ]OM'/'FKM' above, an interesting question to me is is an individual racing 'against themselves' breaking the law? By that I mean "I want to do this particular 'route' in less than 12 hours".

My previous example is a lone person not comparing themselves to anyone else, but they are arguably still 'racing'. Now what if they are not riding with anyone else but "want to ride 'route x' faster than someone who did it last year". That's a competition to me :smile: .

Where exactly is the line drawn I wonder? Is it the gap of time between the 'competitors'? What point is it at, between 'both started at exactly the same moment' and 'one did it last year and I'm trying to beat their time', via 'many competitors with one-hour staggered starts'.

Obviously you know I have zero interest in times/routes/speeds/etc so perhaps I've no right to pass comment, then again Friday is always philosophical day on Here so sod it :smile:
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fatbikephil
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Re: Great British Divide

Post by fatbikephil »

It would boil down to liability and negligence. So if there is a collision and injuries which could be proven to be entirely down to a person / organisation promoting a route to be ridden as fast as possible then they could be liable, depending on the circumstances. That's a lot of ifs, coulds and probably a fairly remote likelihood. Bear in mind that people have been doing this kind of thing for many, many years and there isn't a huge number of injuries that take place in such undertakings that could be directly attributable to trying to go as fast as you can. If a fatal occurred then the investigation would focus on the immediate circumstances. For a road crash it wouldn't be interested in why a person was on the road, just what they were doing. Given that someone could be severely sleep deprived and trying to go fast could apply to an early morning commuter as much as an ultra racer this wouldn't specifically have a bearing on the crash circumstances. If an incident happened off road then again, the investigation would focus on the direct circumstances rather than why a person was there in the first place. Riding a bike on a bridleway is not going to be materially different to riding a bike on a bridleway as part of a set route that you are trying to get round as quickly as possible.

The 'no racing on ROW's' is aimed squarely at preventing massed starts and massed groups of riders charging around a place at break neck speed to the annoyance of other users. A large group of people setting off on a bike ride at once may also cause annoyance to other trail users and lead to complaints to the relevant Council or NP. They may then try to get in touch with the organisers to ensure they put in place proper measures to manage this, i.e staggered starts etc. They aren't likely to take the organiser to court for holding a race. Stuart Ryder (YD300 person) was contacted by the YDNP who were grumbling about him holding a race but it was just that - grumbling. Stuart was able to deflect them by directing them to his website where no mention of race was made. The hoo ha over the Polaris tested this as no racing was being done, it was just an event where a large group of people rode round looking for GR's in a fixed time. If you took a worst case scenario of a cyclist doing an off road ITT, individually or as part of a group start, colliding with a pedestrian on a BW and injuring them, then the pedestrian's life insurance company may go after an event organiser if they felt that their negligence had been a significant factor in the collision. But they would be on a pretty sticky wicket as the chances are such a collision will be entirely down to the actions of the people directly involved. In all honesty, a cyclist who crashes into a dog walker doing an ITT isn't going to say "It's not my fault, it's the guy who made me do this route's fault"

PF's aren't scouring the land looking for illegality, they rely on reports from the Police. The Police would only be interested if they had received lots of complaints or there had been lots of injuries and their first tack would be to contact an organiser and deal with the issue 'softly'. The Police otherwise won't be remotely interested. The road traffic example that Labrat notes - speeding and running red lights - directly results in road casualties so the Police do take an interest and enforce (however minimally...)

So this ramble is me trying to say that none of this is ever likely to be an issue that is going to lead to any form of prosecution or country wide witch hunt of ITT organisers. There is always trial by the Daily Express et al which might make a few organisers nervous but ensuring the language used to describe their events is correct - i.e. it's a social / challenge ride, not a race - will deflect any accusation that they are encouraging widespread law breaking. Timing it is no different to someone timing their own ride for whatever reason - it's not going to lead to people behaving any differently to what they would do if just doing a bike ride, so won't materially alter circumstances if there is a collision or a complaint.

Sorry, Never mind the bollocks, on with the tussocks.
labrat
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Re: Great British Divide

Post by labrat »

RIP wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 12:35 pm
Having mentioned individual 'K[Q! :smile: ]OM'/'FKM' above, an interesting question to me is is an individual racing 'against themselves' breaking the law? By that I mean "I want to do this particular 'route' in less than 12 hours".

My previous example is a lone person not comparing themselves to anyone else, but they are arguably still 'racing'. Now what if they are not riding with anyone else but "want to ride 'route x' faster than someone who did it last year". That's a competition to me :smile: .

Where exactly is the line drawn I wonder? Is it the gap of time between the 'competitors'? What point is it at, between 'both started at exactly the same moment' and 'one did it last year and I'm trying to beat their time', via 'many competitors with one-hour staggered starts'.

Obviously you know I have zero interest in times/routes/speeds/etc so perhaps I've no right to pass comment, then again Friday is always philosophical day on Here so sod it :smile:

"if a tree falls in the forest, does it make a sound?"

Personal challenges are just that, while they remain personal - broadcasting them to others in the knowledge or intent that they will seek to beat it, or postulating a challenge of 'in a day' introduces a level of competition that would create a trial of speed.
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