Lael Wilcox AZT FKT controversy.

[Lazarus]

If ITTs are just "riding a bike "why do they have a set of rules?
Even BB2/300 has a set of rules
Imagine someone does one with food drops, riders pacing them, drafting, swapping bikes for road section etc would that be ok as well?

[lune ranger]

Sounds pretty close to heresy - burn them all.

[firedfromthecircus]

If ITTs are just "riding a bike "why do they have a set of rules?
Even BB2/300 has a set of rules
Imagine someone does one with food drops, riders pacing them, drafting, swapping bikes for road section etc would that be ok as well?

When do you start measuring sock height?

[Bearbonesnorm]

When do you start measuring sock height?

Weirdly, I've decided to implement strict sock rules for the BB200 this year and shorts ... the waste band must be just below your nipples.

[riderdown]

Having a concept such as FKT inevitably leads to

This sounds like the long descent into UCI levels of madness!

which in turn leads to

When do you start measuring sock height?

We live in a world which since before Shackleton etc has been about making money out of being first/youngest/oldest/insert own special category
FKT is just an extension of this

[Cheeky Monkey]

I can’t understand why these super duper racers can’t just swear into a camera that’s pointing up their nose? It’s not hard.

I do not believe this has been given the kudos it deserves.

If I wore one of those wanky little roadie caps I would doff it to Dave and say something naff like "chapeau".



Hard to get too upset about it all. As soon as you prescribe a route and folks talk about who's done it fastest there commences, IMO, an ever-elaborating provess of attempting to codify Rule No.1.

Nice little bit of fuss as well to stir up some interest. As Stu mentioned and if you are of a cynical bent.

[riderdown]

I can’t understand why these super duper racers can’t just swear into a camera that’s pointing up their nose? It’s not hard.

You should offer your directorial skills to these young influencers so they can increase their audience

Can you get nose hair wigs for the folically challenged?

[thenorthwind]

I can’t understand why these super duper racers can’t just swear into a camera that’s pointing up their nose? It’s not hard.

I do not believe this has been given the kudos it deserves.

If I wore one of those wanky little roadie caps I would doff it to Dave and say something naff like "chapeau".



Hard to get too upset about it all. As soon as you prescribe a route and folks talk about who's done it fastest there commences, IMO, an ever-elaborating provess of attempting to codify Rule No.1.

Nice little bit of fuss as well to stir up some interest. As Stu mentioned and if you are of a cynical bent.

Good point, I gave a little snort when I read Dave's post
I've been known to wear one of those wanky little roadie caps though, so now I'm conflicted, but will doff it to Dave anyway.

[Cheeky Monkey]

They just put me in mind of this chap:

[Cheeky Monkey]

Back on track - I wonder if Lael wears one?

[FLV]

. does she really care what the "die hards" think?

Clearly she does not care about the origins, ethics or ethos of the "sport"

It's all 'Ride the divide's" fault

Bastards

[johnnystorm]

. does she really care what the "die hards" think?

Clearly she does not care about the origins, ethics or ethos of the "sport"

At the risk of appearing like I have skin in the game or like arguing that's totally overblown.

Sticky bottle up a big climb, ebike with cached batteries along the route, cutting off the corners, all obvious cheating. Seeing your other half with a camera for a potential and at best unquantifiable benefit? Maybe.

If she'd jumped straight into this from the pro road scene to bending the rules that'd be one thing but with what she's already proved she's capable of I just can't see that picking up a pitchfork is worth it.

[jameso]

Clearly she does not care about the origins, ethics or ethos of the "sport"

I don't think that's the case, I think it's more about the grey area caused by the value of promoting and documenting what she does Vs the sense of race / ITT rules. I expect she understands the rules and ethics as well as anyone and she has little to prove there. In what she does now, the impact she has on women's cycling is way more important than ITT purity imo and I'd be hugely suprised if there was a claim on the within-rules FKT here. I might be wrong, I haven't read the reports and was only aware of the race organiser's statement.

I think ITTs should be 100% solo efforts in intent, as far as is reasonable and within a rider's control. Perhaps that limits these efforts to a certain rider mentality. Some might find a visit hugely valuable, others may not. Rules are rules though, respect the race organiser's take on it. I also think we'd do well to respect the traditions in the same way climbers aim to respect the means of the original ascent. The problem with ITT rules is it becomes a purity spiral (thanks Scotroutes for that highlighting that term in a covid thread ages ago, it's a good one). By some people's take on the rules a fair number of finishers in these races and ITTs should self DQ yet race organisers wouldn't have a problem with the same points.

[Bearbonesnorm]

I'm thinking out loud here but could meeting up / documenting / etc actually have a negative impact on the goal of setting a fast time? We all know that one of the keys is to limit stoppage time and I can't help thinking that would be hindered?

I think James makes a good point about respecting the organisers wishes. As far as I'm aware, there would be nothing to stop someone attempting the route outside of the 'official' event window. That would leave them free to do whatever they chose to. The result with regard to promotional material would still be largely the same and it would save all this 'Pearl Clutching' as Andy described it ... a lovely term, that I will continue to use from this day forth

[Shewie]

I wonder if they'll ban phone calls to loved ones, I can imagine a video call gives as much pep as a face to face encounter.

[Boab]

I wonder if they'll ban phone calls to loved ones, I can imagine a video call gives as much pep as a face to face encounter.

If you watch some of the YouTube videos of previous BB200 rides, then for some people, you are probably correct with that statement.

[Dave Barter]

I wonder if they'll ban phone calls to loved ones, I can imagine a video call gives as much pep as a face to face encounter.

If you watch some of the YouTube videos of previous BB200 rides, then for some people, you are probably correct with that statement.

I need to see a video of someone phoning home from the BB200 ....

[jameso]

I wonder if they'll ban phone calls to loved ones, I can imagine a video call gives as much pep as a face to face encounter.

No matter what I think oc but I'm not too bothered by people phoning home mid ITT. If you call home every night you're still alone on the trail. Some people will get support from it, others might find they have to be in a certain mental place to push on and not being able to call home / removing that temptation both ways helps their focus.

The Great Divide Race rules said no phone use, you could carry one in a sealed bag but using it equalled a DNF / DQ. I've bored on about it before but I do see the GDR as representing a lot of the ethics that could still be relevant in distance racing, in that 'first ascent style' way of looking at things. No smartphones for dot watching others while racing, no phones to get weather info and emotional support etc. GDR was pre GPS but you could use GPS for navigation now and have a smartphone ban (phones ICE only). You could still race the TDR on cues and odometer as they did in the GDR but there's not many routes that have cue notes, or where they're even practical. Whether all that's supported or valued is another matter and I suspect where races are able to raise entry fees the interest in restricting contact and social media content reduces.

[Lazarus]

When do you start measuring sock height?

When it has any relevance to the debate I assume
Did you consider addressing what i said ?

I think it's more about the grey area caused by the value of promoting and documenting what she does Vs the sense of race / ITT rules.

Yes fair point i dont think she would ever do what she considers to be cheating but she certainly thinks film crews and ITT can and do go hand in hand without any advantage - even when the organisers disagree.
When this conflict happens, as far as i am aware, she always films
This may be ethics it may just be the need for sponsorship , who knows

[techno]

rue and lael give their side on this pod: https://bikesordeath.com/podcast/
and sofiane sehil chipps in on the next episode.

[voodoo_simon]

The Great Divide Race rules said no phone use, you could carry one in a sealed bag but using it equalled a DNF / DQ. I've bored on about it before but I do see the GDR as representing a lot of the ethics that could still be relevant in distance racing, in that 'first ascent style' way of looking at things. No smartphones for dot watching others while racing, no phones to get weather info and emotional support etc. GDR was pre GPS but you could use GPS for navigation now and have a smartphone ban (phones ICE only). You could still race the TDR on cues and odometer as they did in the GDR but there's not many routes that have cue notes, or where they're even practical. Whether all that's supported or valued is another matter and I suspect where races are able to raise entry fees the interest in restricting contact and social media content reduces.

Didn’t realise you weren’t allowed to phone people!

I assume updating so is media etc is also banned?

I’ll be honest but I couldn’t go 20-30 days without calling mrs and mini voodoo

[firedfromthecircus]

When do you start measuring sock height?

When it has any relevance to the debate I assume
Did you consider addressing what i said ?

I was specifically addressing what you said. Given that measuring sock height is part of the insanity involved with UCI sanctioned events, then it is relevant.

My understanding of the history of this 'sport' is that it was always meant to be far removed from the more traditional cycle racing scene. Minimal rules, no support, just ride. This kind of malarkey where folk are arguing about rules is indicative of the descent into madness. It's a shame, but it's also human nature I suppose.

Anyway, I'll just round out by saying that I think Lael is awe*some. I love what she is doing getting women and girls involved in cycling, and she can only do it to the level she is because of her profile and her sponsors. She is also genuinely nails! She can do whatever the hell she wants to IMHO.


* got to get round the filter somehow!

[jameso]

When this conflict happens, as far as i am aware, she always films

She had a conditional ok from Matt Lee in advance to document her TDR. She hasn't actually disputed the AZT organiser's statement either, seems a bit of to-fro beforehand may have cleared some things up in advance but wouldn't have changed anyone's plans or position. It's the FKT on the trail, it's an amazing ride even if not the same as the fastest AZTR win or the fastest self-supported ITT.

This kind of malarkey where folk are arguing about rules is indicative of the descent into madness. It's a shame, but it's also human nature I suppose.

The Purity Spiral ; )
We get online debate with no answers... or we get the UCI involved and a slightly different online debate...

Anyway, I'll just round out by saying that I think Lael is awe*some. I love what she is doing getting women and girls involved in cycling, and she can only do it to the level she is because of her profile and her sponsors. She is also genuinely nails! She can do whatever the hell she wants to IMHO.

Exactly. I think a tricky line is being steered well by her and Rue. I had my thoughts on the TDR film but who gives a hoot what I think when you look at what she's achieving overall - which is more important, event purity to the point of restriction or wider exposure and greater inspiration? I was more on the purism/traditions side a handful of years ago and she's one of the riders or people in general who've changed how I see a lot of this. Gatekeeping vs enabling. Recognising that times are changing, self-supported racing is changing via technology, variety of races and increasing participation levels.

[Lazarus]

I never argued for nor even mentioned UCI rules [ or socks]

Imagine someone does one with food drops, riders pacing them, drafting, swapping bikes for road section etc would that be ok as well?

These are against current rules would " we" accept this as FKT or as cheating?

IMHO, though we may debate what the rules* are, we need something or else you could just have someone on a e-bike with multiple batteries , a supply crew perhaps even bikes and food drops claiming FKT
i doubt many would accept them as " real"

As stated at the start she is peerless and an absolutely astounding, inspirational rider who can do things that seem inhuman on a bike.



* it may well be worth changing them to the more modern world but we still need a level playing field or i could claim them all with enough e bikes and team support.

[jameso]

Didn’t realise you weren’t allowed to phone people!

I assume updating so is media etc is also banned?

I’ll be honest but I couldn’t go 20-30 days without calling mrs and mini voodoo

You weren't allowed to in the original GDR but they did have rider call-ins for race updates. I wonder if it was about limiting racer knowledge of other rider's positions and weather etc to make it as true an on sight / solo / self-supported race as it could be. But it all seemed to be done on trust and self-policing. I don't know if other races have had the same rules, this was pre Tour Divide so before 2010? Not sure what the rules in this area were for the 1st TDR either, or going OT what the TDR was aiming to do by being an alternative to the GDR (apart from use the full length of the route).