Bike insights comparison, are they really so similar (Ramin vs rocky road)

[firestarter]

I was looking at the on one rocky road as it looked a bit of a deal but upon comparing on this Website it looks remarkably similar to my ramin plus with 29er wheels on ,in fact using a stem calculator thing is I stick a 15mm spacer in it reduces my reach to the bars by 6mm, ive also got the ebb version so can move that about a bit, to my know naff all eyes they seem on paper very very similar
Any thoughts
https://bikeinsights.com/compare?geomet ... 002299c413

[johnnystorm]

Yep, look pretty darn similar to me too.

How much do you want shiny Ti, boost and so on?

[Lazarus]

I cannot believe that a company, with their reputation, would simply plagarise other bike manufacturers

[stevenshand]

My experience is that there are a ton of inaccuracies on bikeinsights. So much of it is just user generated so I'd double check that it's all as it should be. I think it's a great resource and if you can get the brands verified and locked then it would be a great tool. As far as bikes being really similar? No surprise there.

[Alpinum]

I was looking at the on one rocky road as it looked a bit of a deal

If you're thinking of getting a new bike here's what I think;

I like numbers and love to put them into the correct context, which is the tricky part.
Only big difference I see is the CS length. For me the Ramin wins. I love short CS. Yet I never rode mentioned bikes... so this is purely based on numbers without (much) context.
Then there's all the feeling you can only get when riding a bike. Frame material, build type (of a given material resulting in a certain stiffness/comfort/compliance), components down to even grips or a degree or two more/ less rise (eg flat bars) or a few mm longer reach on a drop bar - all these things add up and may give a bike with similar numbers a totally different riding sensation.

I tested and still test the same frames with different components back to back, sometimes wheelsets, or just tyres, even rotors and brake pads. Or test bars on the same bike. It's quite astounding how much of a difference details can make.

If you indeed feel you'd like something 'new', why not add eg a component you've been quietly dreaming of to your existing bike and give it some hours of good care. In my experience this has always paid back well and came with new found love for the 'old' bike.

I cannot believe that a company, with their reputation, would simply plagarise other bike manufacturers

I'm convinced some do, especially when it comed to carbon frames. They claim an own and unique design, special don't know what, but in the end it's just an overpriced open mould frame (in the case of carbon frames).

[firestarter]

All valid points , I'll dig a bit more but I think they appear similar enough to not need a new one at present tbh

[jameso]

You need to be sure the rocky road has the geometry expressed at the same fork length for the comparison to mean anything.

[jameso]

I cannot believe that a company, with their reputation, would simply plagarise other bike manufacturers

I doubt they would bother. Bikes are so often within +/-10mm and half a degree etc. Added up a few of those changes can change ride feel but whether one works better for you or not, hard to day.
Funny how old school the Ramin geo looks now, yet I still have one that rides great for the intended use.

Edit to add I'd agree with Alpinum on carbon frame geo, seems common for open mold frames to be an average of a few big brand's numbers or very similar to a market leader of the previous year.

[johnnystorm]

I cannot believe that a company, with their reputation, would simply plagarise other bike manufacturers

Not sure if this is missing a or not but Planet X did have three frames on sale that were identical to Alpkit/Sonder offerings. So much so they even used the Alpkit website images as silhouettes with the Sonder logos on them.

[Bearbonesnorm]

Only so many ways to weld two triangles together into something workable.

[firestarter]

There is mate but it seems so close as to not be really any difference if you know what I mean, obviously it will be different, just not a great deal
That said apart from the fantastic forks and flexible rear the Jones spaceframe I had wasn't all that different to the ramin if I'm honest, which is why when one had to go it was the jones as the money bought me some new wheels and some new ink lol

[Bearbonesnorm]

What a lovely bike the Ramin is. I told James they'd have sold more if they'd put the price up

[Alpinum]

I cannot believe that a company, with their reputation, would simply plagarise other bike manufacturers

Not sure if this is missing a or not but Planet X did have three frames on sale that were identical to Alpkit/Sonder offerings. So much so they even used the Alpkit website images as silhouettes with the Sonder logos on them.

Also Alpkit/Sonder had at least one frame model from the KHS factory and some nice marketing bs to go along with it. Must say the price was absolutely fair though.

[firestarter]

They certainly would have sold more if it were priced higher, its way more than the sum of its parts and the low price definitely put some snobs off
I tried to flog it initially before I decided to sell the jones and it was mint upgraded drive train and other bits and bats and I didn't get one bite priced about 450
Glad I kept it tbh ive a set of standard 650+ wheels a set of 29er wheels and a set of wide 29er wheels with 2.4 rear and 3.0 front too very versatile hopefully I'll get another rohloff at some point too oh and maybe a dynamo again

[firestarter]

Out of curiosity I looked at the whippet too , it's literally the ramin in a different material if the figures are correct, I guess there are only so many different numbers that work
Glad I like the orange beast

[jameso]

But are the numbers the same at the same fork length?
It's critical.. ie I wouldn't bother starting a frame layout until the fork spec is known.
The Ramin numbers are at 470mm fork length which was the rigid fork spec. 470mm is approx working mean average length of a 100mm 29er fork.
The Whippet geo chart doesn't seem to state fork length or whether it's static numbers so it's basically useless imho :)
If it's a static geo it's going to ride fairly similarly. Neither bike is a LLS type of geometry, both are a bit more compact/shorter reach, shorter wheelbase, agile steering etc. Fast flowy singletrack in the woods sort of thing.

I think a wide range of numbers can work but fork spec for MTBs dictates a common starting point for all brands (maybe less so now with offset choices) so for an XC 29er that isn't trad XC race you're going to end up +/- not a lot.
TBH I think a lot of what made the Ramin work was the tubing. Tubeset suited the use and geometry, it avoided using much stiffer but techie/cool looking hydroformed tubes. For anything not at Cannondale volumes you can be pickier with butting and wall thickness with round tubes, tapering them or pressing oval sections is also pretty simple stuff.

[firestarter]

Tubing is not something I've even considered tbh all interting stuff

[Lazarus]

Not sure if this is missing a

It was tongue in cheek as there practices are well know and not even thinly veiled anymore .

The Ti alpkit broken road* is just an off the shelf walty frame. I am not sure if they design any of their bikes either

* I have one and it's lovely