All points north cycling/BPing event

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fatbikephil
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Re: All points north cycling/BPing event

Post by fatbikephil »

The insurance thing seems a bit draconian as well. It's not a legal requirement and your basically going cycle touring so odd that they are insisting on it - usual crap advice from a lawyer?
Bob tell them you'll expect to knock it off in 3 days and see what the reaction is.
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Re: All points north cycling/BPing event

Post by woodsmith »

Bearbonesnorm wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 7:36 pm
I hope you never want to get a B1/B2 visa for the USA then.
Probably not but it does seem somewhat different to riding a pushbike, no?
No difference at all. It's just a hoop you've got to jump through to enable a leisure pursuit to be followed.
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Re: All points north cycling/BPing event

Post by jameso »

fatbikephil wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 8:00 pm The insurance thing seems a bit draconian as well. It's not a legal requirement and your basically going cycle touring so odd that they are insisting on it - usual crap advice from a lawyer?
If they don't insist riders are insured and a rider takes someone out on a descent, an insurer acting for the injured person might go after the event organiser? The organisers would be unlikely to get insurance themselves if they don't insist on all riders having insurance. Maybe a case of either everyone's insured or no-one is. It seems a bit of a jump to go after the event organiser if a rider has no cover but I've been told an insurer looking to settle for someone might go after anyone with any potential liability to see what sticks. Whether that's true or to what extent I'm not sure. Even defending against a claim might have some costs.
Seems to me that insurance liability is an arms race, as soon as someone has a load of expensive claim lawyers behind them everyone else needs them. Plus, making sure you're not giving them easy pickings.

Read something interesting/worrying a while back on this, that directors of small companies may not be able to use Ltd Company status to limit liability exposure. A case in the last 5 years decided if the company is small enough a director can't claim enough distance from decision-making, personal decisions and company decisions are the same thing in a 1-man band and potentially in a small company. Because of that the director risks becoming personally liable for losses and their personal assets could be at risk.
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Re: All points north cycling/BPing event

Post by Bearbonesnorm »

No difference at all.
No, really there is. One involves travelling 2000 miles to a foreign country which could potentially have national security implications and the other's riding a pushbike a bit. :wink:
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Re: All points north cycling/BPing event

Post by woodsmith »

Bearbonesnorm wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 9:24 pm
No difference at all.
No, really there is.
No, really there isn't. It doesn't matter how serious the hoop is, if someone can't be bothered to jump through it it just means they don't want it enough. Perhaps this is the event organisers way of weeding out some of the dreamers and timewasters.
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Re: All points north cycling/BPing event

Post by fatbikephil »

jameso wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 8:30 pm
fatbikephil wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 8:00 pm The insurance thing seems a bit draconian as well. It's not a legal requirement and your basically going cycle touring so odd that they are insisting on it - usual crap advice from a lawyer?
If they don't insist riders are insured and a rider takes someone out on a descent, an insurer acting for the injured person might go after the event organiser? The organisers would be unlikely to get insurance themselves if they don't insist on all riders having insurance. Maybe a case of either everyone's insured or no-one is. It seems a bit of a jump to go after the event organiser if a rider has no cover but I've been told an insurer looking to settle for someone might go after anyone with any potential liability to see what sticks. Whether that's true or to what extent I'm not sure. Even defending against a claim might have some costs.
Lots of cases of people who sue the cooncil (or whoever) after tripping over their feet and injuring themselves are actually a result of their insurance company, with whom they have life insurance policy, going after somebody to avoid them paying a claim. But it all boils down to negligence so a rider hitting another rider on a public road is unlikely to have done it due to negligence on behalf of the organiser....

Just been through the form and it does have lots of tick boxes where you have to promise to do all sorts of things (in summary don't be a dick) including wearing yer sam brown belt. I wouldn't been seen dead in one :wink: Also amusingly, there are several questions along the lines of 'if you were in this situation what would you do?' obviously meant as a bit of a weeding out exercise but probably not worth anything as someone could easily put the right answers down but still be a dick.....

I would be tempted if it started in Kielder but I'm actually loathe to commit to such an expensive event knowing some part of my aging body will doubtless fall apart the week before resulting in either having to pull out or suffer a lot. That said I still fancy the Rov 300.

We'll look forward to seeing you smash it, Bob and Ian :-bd
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Re: All points north cycling/BPing event

Post by Ian »

The question that covers the reflection harness says: “I understand that I am responsible for keeping my lights charged and will wear the reflective harness provided between dusk and dawn”

So the harness is a night time thing, which although not part of UK Law or in the Highway Code (which is an earlier statement you have to tick to abide by), it might not be a bad idea depending on the type of road / part of the country you’re in.

Pedants might argue it doesn’t say you have to wear it on the outside of your clothing :lol:
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Re: All points north cycling/BPing event

Post by Boab »

Bearbonesnorm wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 7:02 pm Is it really 15 pages long? Want do they want to know? If I saw a 15 page 'application' I simply CBA and walk away but maybe that's the reasoning behind it? :wink:
To be fair, quite a few of the pages have one question, with a single checkbox on them.

A selection of the questions I've encountered so far:
  • Do you have any allergies? *
  • I understand that I am responsible for managing my own time (when and where to rest, sleep, eat). *
  • I understand that I am responsible for keeping my lights charged and will wear the reflective harness provided between dusk and dawn. *
  • Please give us details of any previous outdoor experience, either in similar endurance events or solo expeditions, where self-reliance has been an important factor. *
  • You're on an exposed moorland, the temperature drops and there's a flurry of snow (yes, in June, it happens up north!) Visibilty is poor and you start to get quite cold. What are your options? *
  • As you're riding along, a twig flicks up and gets jammed in your rear mech, you manage to remove it but in the process your mech becomes bent. What issues might arise from this and what can you do to fix it? *
  • You stop at a cafe for some food and get chatting to the cafe owner about what you're doing. They're very impressed and offer you the meal on the house. Do you accept? *
  • Your powerbank has got wet and when you plug in your phone and GPS unit to charge them up nothing happens. You're running very low on power and the nearest town is at least 50km away. What do you do next? *
  • A friend who lives along the route has been following your dot online and can see that you're close by. The weather is lousy and it's getting late. They send a text to offer you some food and a place to have a rest. Do you accept? *
  • Are you absolutely sure you want to do this?! *
    • 100% sure! Get me to that startline.
    • About 75% sure - I'm not ready yet but I will be by June.
    • I am terrified but I really want to give it a go.
    • No, I'm not sure at all - depends which day you ask me!
    • Other:
There are theories at the bottom of my jargon.
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Re: All points north cycling/BPing event

Post by jameso »

But it all boils down to negligence so a rider hitting another rider on a public road is unlikely to have done it due to negligence on behalf of the organiser....
Agreed I don't see how the organiser would be negligent in that situ (rider hitting a pedestrian, or another rider - unsure how/if that differs) if they'd advised riders well, hadn't told them to race somewhere unsuitable etc but not ensuring all the riders were insured could leave them with the claim if the link to the rider was clear? The rider could also have a claim against them, insured or not.
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Re: All points north cycling/BPing event

Post by pistonbroke »

Some of those questions above are amazing! Surely a budding thread topic on what questions to ask an aspiring competitor? I'd add a question along the lines of "which brand of beard wax do you use?" Any response would result in exclusion :wink: Can't imagine a similar interrogation here in Spain, maybe the only question relevant to last year's Badlands would be "have you €200 in your bank account that you can send us?"
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Re: All points north cycling/BPing event

Post by Bearbonesnorm »

No, really there isn't. It doesn't matter how serious the hoop is, if someone can't be bothered to jump through it it just means they don't want it enough. Perhaps this is the event organisers way of weeding out some of the dreamers and timewasters.
Sorry, with you now. Yes, you're right - a series of hoops to jump through and yes, most likely designed to discourage some candidates. I suppose my point was whether they're really required in this instance.

Asking someone what they'd do while they're sat at home warm and comfortable may have little bearing on what the same person might do at 3am when they're cold, wet, anxious and tired. The only question I can foresee providing a clue as to how people will behave is to ask about their prior experiences (I appreciate that question is asked).
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Re: All points north cycling/BPing event

Post by Ian »

Regarding insurance and negligence, I would imagine if there was an accident and a claim was lodged by a third party, lawyers could argue that the organisers are encouraging riders to cycle over 1000km in 72 hours, by means of setting up an event specifically for the purpose, and that puts riders at greater risk to the general public from sleep deprivation, being on potentially risky roads at times of the night when cars aren’t expecting to see cyclists* and all manner of other stuff that lawyers are good at levering out of nowhere. Would the distance and time limit riders are “subjected to” be seen as reasonable in court? I doubt it.

If I’m riding purely for myself, outside of an event, then all the responsibilities are with me. If I’m partaking in an event, some of the liability must be attributed to the organiser (especially if they are charging a fee)?
If I’ve ticked a waiver box, that might get them off the hook, but I don’t know if that’s been fully tested in court yet.

* I realise you can cycle whenever you want, but cars aren’t expecting to encounter bikes on roads much after last orders at the bar…
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Re: All points north cycling/BPing event

Post by Bearbonesnorm »

If I’ve ticked a waiver box, that might get them off the hook, but I don’t know if that’s been fully tested in court yet.
My understanding is that a waiver or disclaimer is only of value if the organiser accepts that they are responsible for any claims directly resulting from their negligence. Simply trying to wash your hands of all liability is no use. However, in many cases it would be very difficult to actually prove that an organiser was negligent and that their negligence directly caused the accident / incident / injury etc.
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Re: All points north cycling/BPing event

Post by RIP »

Fascinating thread this is. The absolute minutae of the paperwork is amazing for 'a bike ride'. 15 pages? I've read house surveys and wills shorter than that.

I have little (actually, make that 'no') interest in events or Events (however I am a big fan of eVent - superb fabric :wink: ), but all I will contribute is that we should be damn grateful for Stu and his simple (*) gatherings (whatever they are, they are not events; as we know). In fact they are the only ones in which I will participate (**). I can't remember any rules or questions or signatures anywhere. Oh no, I tell a lie. I do vaguely remember scribbling my name on a ragged sheet of tea-stained paper at the meeting place, presumably to confirm that I'd misguidedly bothered to turn up.

Thank you Stu.

(*) Easily misunderstood. Bizarrely some people think it takes great skill and ingenuity to make complicated things or things complicated. Astute persons will realise immediately that quite the opposite pertains, as exemplified by the BBB case.

(**) as far as it is possible to 'participate'. There's a much much looser word for it but for the moment it escapes me.
Last edited by RIP on Mon Nov 29, 2021 2:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: All points north cycling/BPing event

Post by slarge »

For what it's worth I think that the All Points North and Pan Celtic Race are both great format events - and by the (over) subscription it is clear that they have an increasing following every year. They're a challenge of a different type to what the vast majority of riders are used to. They almost certainly appeal to the Sportive rider who wants to push a bit further, plus the "new" breed of bikepackers who maybe want something less wild than ditch sleeping and tussock hopping and a little more refinment. It's a way of trying to bring the RAAM and TCR type races to the UK.

The cost is a lot - however there is a massive market out there of people who are more than happy to spend £'00's or '000's on a cycling holiday every year, or looking for an excuse to buy more gear. I am still amazed how many people take their bike to their LBS to get a chain replaced or puncture fixed, but many many people do.... I suspect that to many people the costs of events like these are relatively low compared to what they just spent on a bike or the latest laptop/phone/games console or whatever.

I did look at these last year/2019, but didn't get accepted. But I also look at BB events and sportives and CX races and ultimately, like many, I just want to ride my bike and am happy to pay (a little) for the privilege.

Like many on here there is a worry that these events are going to get tested in court at some point. It will take a really unfortunate accident or something, but in many ways they are just like the organisers running the "supported LeJog" or "C2C in a day". As an aside (and maybe not a welcome one) - did the organiser(s) of the TCR or Pacific Way race ever get embroiled in the courts for the accidents that have happened on their events? I know they are run in different countries with different legal systems, but my limited understanding of those events was that the organisers may have had to demonstrate something, but the fingers of guilt did not point at them.

Ultimately more events = more choice and more events = more people on bikes. Both are good things!
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Re: All points north cycling/BPing event

Post by Lazarus »

Do £500 events really mean more folk start cycling ?
Is it not just more events for folk who already cycle?
I doubt a newbie is signing up for either
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Re: All points north cycling/BPing event

Post by jameso »

Can't imagine a similar interrogation here in Spain
"nobody expects the... ...ah forget it" :smile:
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Re: All points north cycling/BPing event

Post by jameso »

Bearbonesnorm wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 8:57 am
No, really there isn't. It doesn't matter how serious the hoop is, if someone can't be bothered to jump through it it just means they don't want it enough. Perhaps this is the event organisers way of weeding out some of the dreamers and timewasters.
Sorry, with you now. Yes, you're right - a series of hoops to jump through and yes, most likely designed to discourage some candidates. I suppose my point was whether they're really required in this instance.

Asking someone what they'd do while they're sat at home warm and comfortable may have little bearing on what the same person might do at 3am when they're cold, wet, anxious and tired. The only question I can foresee providing a clue as to how people will behave is to ask about their prior experiences (I appreciate that question is asked).
A vetting process somehow seems to be a standard thing insurers want for something like this. Had a similar discussion about the TNR, I'd just previously spelt out what a rider could expect and the main risks and left it to them to decide whether they were up to it.
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Re: All points north cycling/BPing event

Post by Bearbonesnorm »

A vetting process somehow seems to be a standard thing insurers want for something like this. Had a similar discussion about the TNR, I'd just previously spelt out what a rider could expect and the main risks and left it to them to decide whether they were up to it.
Most probably but I believe there is no blanket cover provided in this case and it's down to each individual to provide their own third party cover ... I think?

Also, I wonder whether any vetting process may have the potential to backfire - as an organiser, you may have given someone a spot based on their answers to your questions. Should something unfortunate then befall the rider, could they not argue that by accepting their entry, you said 'they'd be alright' ... or words to that effect?
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Re: All points north cycling/BPing event

Post by RIP »

jameso wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 2:40 pm
Can't imagine a similar interrogation here in Spain
"nobody expects the... ...ah forget it" :smile:
:lol: Excellent!
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Re: All points north cycling/BPing event

Post by Dyffers »

Back to the original point (sorry). I've had my eye on Normadicat 900km for the last couple of years which is pretty much the same thing but in Normandy (easier for me to get to than Sheffield! :roll: )

https://normandicat.com/normandicat-2022/

This year, if it had run, it was 56 euros an entry (bring your own florescent idiot belt for dusk to dawn riding thanks to French law).

From the site: "Registration includes: the logistical cost of the event (insurance, room rental, banners & various purchases, etc.), the carbon offset of the event, goodies (Welcom Bag), gps tracking of each participant, a meal at the end of the event (except for the 200 km which will be entitled to a refreshment)."

What other things are included in the APN entry?
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Re: All points north cycling/BPing event

Post by jameso »

Bearbonesnorm wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 3:13 pm
A vetting process somehow seems to be a standard thing insurers want for something like this. Had a similar discussion about the TNR, I'd just previously spelt out what a rider could expect and the main risks and left it to them to decide whether they were up to it.
Most probably but I believe there is no blanket cover provided in this case and it's down to each individual to provide their own third party cover ... I think?

Also, I wonder whether any vetting process may have the potential to backfire - as an organiser, you may have given someone a spot based on their answers to your questions. Should something unfortunate then befall the rider, could they not argue that by accepting their entry, you said 'they'd be alright' ... or words to that effect?
Sorry, meant the vetting process helps get the organiser insured, plus the organiser needs to insist on riders having their own insurance.

Fair point on vetting being a possible vote of confidence - that's why I went for the warnings and explanation of basic risks and let the rider decide. A few Qs came up from the insurers the TNR may get cover from and they didn't seem to make practical sense to me. eg, on-course support / check points. Same thing, if you provide some checks are you open to a lack of care where it's not realistic to offer the support? Dunno. Insurers just have a list of things they need to tick off.
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Re: All points north cycling/BPing event

Post by jameso »

a meal at the end of the event (except for the 200 km which will be entitled to a refreshment)
Brilliant. "200km? You can't be hungry yet? You've only just earned a cold drink.. "
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Re: All points north cycling/BPing event

Post by redefined_cycles »

Dyffers wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 3:32 pm Back to the original point (sorry). I've had my eye on Normadicat 900km for the last couple of years which is pretty much the same thing but in Normandy (easier for me to get to than Sheffield! :roll: )

https://normandicat.com/normandicat-2022/

This year, if it had run, it was 56 euros an entry (bring your own florescent idiot belt for dusk to dawn riding thanks to French law).

From the site: "Registration includes: the logistical cost of the event (insurance, room rental, banners & various purchases, etc.), the carbon offset of the event, goodies (Welcom Bag), gps tracking of each participant, a meal at the end of the event (except for the 200 km which will be entitled to a refreshment)."

What other things are included in the APN entry?
The tracker, idiot - I'm not wearing any lights - belt, meal... erm, think thats about it. :grin:
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Re: All points north cycling/BPing event

Post by thenorthwind »

redefined_cycles wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 12:40 am
Dyffers wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 3:32 pm What other things are included in the APN entry?
The tracker, idiot-I'm-not-wearing-any-lights-belt, meal... erm, think thats about it. :grin:
FTFY Shaf, because I think that's what you meant, and the first few times I read it I thought you were calling Dyffers an idiot, which seemed out of character :lol:
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