Bivy equipment choices for an uncomfortable night

[Boab]

The one thing that has stuck with me from the weekend, was the difference in the amount of kit everyone was carrying. My choices were pretty easy to make, I have one bike, one set of luggage, one mat, etc. I also have a heavy, bulky, sleeping bag, that means I need to fit fork cages, so I'm now a total quilt convert, as my Vesper 32 UL is vaguely exciting and packs really small. My tent is a much nicer experience than the bivy bag I own, and only weights fractionally more. It's all still quite bulky, and I was amazed at how small the size of some riders baggage was.

If push came to shove, and I ended up stopping for the night, I would've had as comfortable a night as I normally do on a BaM ride. Listening to Alexinthepeaks in the pub (can't remember everyone else's names!) and chatting with Dyffers, both before, and during the ride, the reasoning for the apparent lack of kit became clear and then totally obvious. It would appear that my mistake was taking comfortable bivy equipment, and I should've taken only what would have kept me alive. If I was suffering and thinking of stopping, the best way to keep going, evidently, is to realise that you'll have just a sub standard a time stopped in the bivy bag, so the only way to stop the suffering is to continue and finish.

So I've been thinking...

I don't like bivy bags, I tried last year and it's just not for me. This obviously gives me an advantage, as taking practically any bivy bag is going to have the desired effect of keeping me going, as I know I wont get any meaningful sleep. It would appear from that the Adventure Medical Kits SOL Escape Bivy (238g; no idea on packed size) is the thing, or the AlpKit Kloke (285g; 20cm x 12cm packed) as an alternative. Can you fit the mat inside either of those and still loft a down bag/quilt...? Or would I need something slightly bigger, like an Outdoor Research Helium Emergency Bivy (256g; 14cm x 7cm packed)...?

I can't make up my mind on getting a synthetic sleeping bag, or another down quilt. Benefits of a synthetic sleeping bag would be that I can just get into it all covered in crap, downside are that I would never use it as I'm now a quilt convert. Given that the OMM Mountain Core 125 Synthetic Sleeping Bag (388g; 21cm x 13cm packed) and the OMM Mountain Raid 160 Sleeping Bag (414g; 22cm x 15cm packed) straddle the Thermarest Vesper 45 UL Down Quilt (408g; 11cm x 13cm packed) weight wise, are slightly cheaper, but both are much bulkier, it would appear that the easy choice is another quilt. The rational there, is I'd actually use the quilt on high summer BaM rides, as I did find my Thermarest Vesper 32 UL a touch warn at times. I suppose the thought of getting a fancy down quilt wet and muddy, would also be an incentive to continue.

I was planning on going weight weenie on a new mat at some point anyway, as much as I like my Exped DownMat, it's not light. So either an Exped SynMat HL M Regular Sleeping Mat (365g; 19cm x 9cm packed) or a Thermarest NeoAir UberLite Regular Sleeping Mat (264g; 15cm x 9cm packed). Pro's for the Exped, I can pump it up with my Exped pillow on summer BaM rides, it's also cheaper. Pro's for the Thermarest, it's lighter and packs smaller (which is the point of this exercise I suppose).

I'd rather not be that miserable and uncomfortable if I can possibly avoid it, but I totally get the rational behind the thinking. Other than the bivy bag, I'd rather buy a bag/quilt and mat that I would actually use in the summer, rather than something that will only be trotted out, unused, for ITTs.

Can anyone suggest anything else I should look at...?

Especially interested to hear what bag / quilts people were carrying, if any.

[Bearbonesnorm]

With regard to bivvy bag, I'm pretty sure you can get a mat etc inside a Kloke as it's roughly the same size as a Hunka XL.

Obviously there's numerous ways to skin a cat but my 'keep me alive without additional luxury' would likely be:

Hunka XL
Cumulus 150 quilt
An old 3/4 length first generation Neoair

Especially interested to hear what bag / quilts people were carrying, if any.

I hope they were as otherwise it's a DNF.

[whitestone]

For events like the BB2/300 I treat them like Alpine climbing - you are just looking at getting some rest/recovery rather than a good night's sleep. Consequently I take something that will let me get to sleep but isn't good enough for a full night and I'll be woken by being cold after a couple of hours. It's a bit of a fine art - getting wet/cold before bivvying would need more warmth for a given desired length of sleep, etc.

I typically take:

Cumulus 150 quilt
Borah Gear bivy bag
Klymit x-frame mat (torso length)
Trekkertent DCF tarp or SMD Gatewood cape (depends on how exposed the route or possible bivy sites are)
Carbon Fibre pole

That lot weighs under 1kg with the tarp and about 1100g with the Gatewood. I'm doing the 300 in November so will probably take the Gatewood. It all fits easily in an 8L drybag.

I ended up with that lot as most of its predecessors were at the end of life at around the time we started bikepacking so I had the "luxury" of being able to get lightweight kit first time round.

[Dyffers]

Boab you've already over thought this.

Firstly, don't take a mat.

Secondly, you seem to be looking to spend some serious money on kit that for the vast majority of events you won't use.

Thirdly, try and carry things that double up on uses. My sillylight bag is augmented by a synthetic jacket if I did need to sleep, but I can also use the jacket as a final extra layer to ride in if I'm freezing or soaked through (hence not a down jacket).

And to Whitestone: I wish I was fast enough to bivy and get round the 300!

Edited to add that the trick is to embrace and enjoy the suffering. It's what makes it fun. No winking smiley.

[Gpl23]

My kloke fitted a thermarest xlite standard and a cumulus 350 quilt fine.

[fatbikephil]

I think its different for an overnighter such as a 200 or 300 to a multi day trip. If you are 'touring' then luxury is part of the equation too.
I'm very much a tarp / bivvy bag type as my lightest set up is only 50g's heavier than my event bivvy bag and able to deal with much worse weather. On the Highland Trail this worked pretty good allowing 5 dry nights sleep. My priority was to get 4-5hrs kip however rather than the fast folk who just want to grab an hour or so. I can't do that little sleep beyond one night....

At the YD300 I stuck my neck out and went with a lightweight bivvy bag (Rab survival zone), an old neoair 2/3rds mat and a base layer. I was vaguely thinking of pushing through but in the event at 2am I felt the sleep monsters descend and also found a large sycamore tree to hide under. I was warm enough (all gear plus base layer) without a sleeping bag and slept for just over an hour.

At the BB200 I took the same but instead of the base layer took my 150 quilt (only a bit heavier) I wasn't planning on stopping but this would allow me to get an hour or so if I needed to. I would have to find a suitable tree however. If the forecast had been really bad I would have chucked the tarp in as well just in case. I'm wholly unconvinced about going without a mat but then I'm 50. The ground is hard and cold.....

For touring it would be tarp and bivvy if OK weather and no midges, Deschutes and bivvy if iffy weather and no midges, Deschutes and mesh inner if midges.

a lot of it is down to personal preference and seeing what does or doesn't work. If you don't like a particular set up you can flog it on here!

[Bearbonesnorm]

the trick is to embrace and enjoy the suffering. It's what makes it fun.

Weird but true.

[whitestone]

My summer "touring" bivy kit is basically the same as listed above but I'll just swap out the mat for a super comfy Exped Synmat. Adds about 300g.

A tarp & bivy combo is very flexible: if you are out in the open and precipitation is expected, use both; if it's going to be fine just use the bivy.

[frogatthefarriers]

….If you don't like a particular set up you can flog it on here!

Ha! If only… I seem to find it impossible to sell anything - that’s why I’ve got sheds full of stuff

[Alpinum]

For events like the BB2/300 I treat them like Alpine climbing - you are just looking at getting some rest/recovery rather than a good night's sleep.

I was going to just write "rope", since coiling it and using it as a mat can make for an uncomfy bivy. Add in a 200 g emergency bivy bag and downjacket and otherwise sleep with the clothing you have been wearing. This is pretty much how I often shivered through nights on long Alpine climbs. For bikepacking... nah.

A quilt/bag of 320 - 400 g total weight, a ca. 150 x 250 tarp (or bivy bag, both at 90 - 300 g) and a lightweight air mat (150 - 220 g) is my mostly used 3 season solution for short multi day trips. Often boosted with a 182 g down jumper.
Most of all, especially during bikepacking, where you can usually cover more terrain than when out hiking, I focus on finding a nice spot, eg sheltered from some wind (a little wind may help keep bugs off), soft ground (grass, will help lying more comfy and boost an otherwise poor mat like the Klymit Intertia X Lite), not too close to water (humidity) and a good view.
One could say a good rest doesn't help with a low overall finishing time, but I for one enjoy riding fresh and well rested, being able to push if I want, to be agile on the bike and aware of my surroundings, rather than sneaking along tired af.
If you're thinking about finishing faster just ride longer into the night and have daylight awakening you. Eg if the sun rises at 7, ride until 3, rather than riding till midnight and setting the alarm for 4 and struggling to get moving in the dark. Best of both worlds? Have a good but short rest...

[whitestone]

Pretty much that Gian. That listed bivy kit pretty much matches your list and weights.

Back in the 1980s when I did most of my Alpine climbing I used small sections of Karrimat, usually three, slipped inside a sleeve down the back of my rucksack. Combined with the sack itself for my feet there was just enough length to lay out on but turning round was "interesting". If the rope wasn't being used to belay me it was usually my pillow. Of course the kit back then was somewhat bulkier and heavier than what we have available now.

[Alexinthepeaks]

My biggest weight saving this year over 2019 and 2020 was the 1l water filter i got on amazon on thursday before the ride. Normally i carried a 3l full bladder in my frame bag....not now...500ml, topping up as i go.....i dont really worry about a few kg here and there as my bike weighs so much! Interesting to hear the gram pinching on the sleep systems though, i need one of these quilts you speak of!

[slarge]

For a single night my setup is vey different to a multi night - especially if the weather is looking promising.
For this years BB300 I had my Phd Minim Race bag (2nd hand off here), a Borah bivvy (very not waterproof), a silver blanket (either as groundsheet or top cover), plus spare base layer, socks and buff.

That all fitted into an 8 litre drybag along with leg warmers, waterproof jacket and trousers. It would have been a damp uncomfortable night but it would have been quite a brief sleep...

In the end I rode through the night - which was the plan, but I always think about the "what happens if I can't move" scenario - broken ankle, leg, whatever where you need to get into someplace warm in the early hours when the nearest help might be the farmer in 8 hours time.

Plus I also carried a backpack - Ultimate Direction race vest (really a running pack) that seemed to swallow more than it's size suggested: 2 litre bladder, lots of food (half of which I only remembered I had when emptying it after the ride), plus my valuables.

For multi nights it is essential that the kit doesn't get wet - so a tarp or small tent is added, plus a polycro groundsheet (very crinkly but also very waterproof), and then maybe leggings and insulated jacket or gilet depending on temperature. And probably a warmer bag - my Cumulus 200 is very light, and OK down to 0degC (with base layers).

[ledburner]

….If you don't like a particular set up you can flog it on here!

Ha! If only… I seem to find it impossible to sell anything - that’s why I’ve got sheds full of stuff

try listing it with picture, and a reasons price
what are you offering.

[whitestone]

While the BB2/300 has a mandatory kit list it's probably better to consider what not to take. After all nothing's lighter or more compact than, well, nothing.

It's Stuart's TLS system (see the news and reviews section) turned up to ELEVEN! Just remember that everything is a compromise: not taking any kind of sleeping mat does save weight and bulk but if you do stop then any such rest is likely to be short lived; etc. This needs to be balanced with any knowledge of how you cope with particular conditions, no use skimping on something that you really, really need. On the 2018 BB200 I took a heavyweight waterproof jacket (Endura MT500) because the conditions were truly awful for the first half and I knew that a lightweight one would press against me in the wind and I'd get really cold. Search out that year's thread and there's a video showing what it was like. It turned out I kept warm and reasonably dry (as much as one could in the conditions - waist deep river crossings) so for me I made the right decision.

A lightweight down quilt could be a good purchase, it's partly why I got the Cumulus. I was actually looking for a bag to use for the colder months but got the quilt as I can use it over my summer sleeping bag during the winter months, the combination is good to at least -6C. I actually get a lot of use out of it because of this, 150 or so nights in five years.

As others have noted, ITTs are significantly different to touring and you do need to embrace the discomfort to a certain extent.

[frogatthefarriers]

….If you don't like a particular set up you can flog it on here!

Ha! If only… I seem to find it impossible to sell anything - that’s why I’ve got sheds full of stuff

try listing it with picture, and a reasons price
what are you offering.

You misunderstand me. It’s not that nobody’ll buy my stuff - it’s that I can’t get myself to put it up for sale It’s a sickness, I’m sure it is..

[ledburner]

….If you don't like a particular set up you can flog it on here!

Ha! If only… I seem to find it impossible to sell anything - that’s why I’ve got sheds full of stuff

try listing it with picture, and a reasons price
what are you offering.

You misunderstand me. It’s not that nobody’ll buy my stuff - it’s that I can’t get myself to put it up for sale It’s a sickness, I’m sure it is..

Part of TLS is HLS. ..!
Have Less Stuff.
if you can't part with it, rent or lease it!

Don't get that a friends Wife who still has all the kids clothes, All 3 of them until they started high school.
sh can't give stuff a 2nd life!

[ledburner]

After reading this, I have decided, I must be doing Less Stuff Than Touring (not credit card touring- what sun). my version is Bloat(/bike)packing .
I must embrace Less Is More, less stuff more moles /miles ..

[Boab]

Thanks all, loads of good suggestions etc. I've been pondering them most of the day,while pretending to work. Dyffers, of course I've over thought it, I've got a brand new multi-coloured spreadsheet for this stuff and everything! When I got my Vesper 32 UL quilt, it just highlighted how heavy and bulky all the kit I'd been lugging around was, so I was planning up "upgrading" loads of my stuff anyway. To the point of looking into getting a Zpacks Plexamid, packs down the the same size as my current tent, but is half the weight; six times the price mind, but half the weight. Which I suppose is the driving factor for an ITT, keep the kit to the bare minimum, and as light as possible. I'm not looking for a comfortable and enjoyable experience, I've already got stuff for that, I'm looking to not die.

Let's start with the mat and work our way to the outside, that way it's easier to address a couple of Dyffers points:

Firstly, don't take a mat.

I'm with Phil on this one, I'm 49, the days where I can drop and sleep anywhere on just a Karrimat are long gone. I know the point of knowing you'll be uncomfortable helps you keep going, but I think there are limits to the suffering I'm prepared to endure.

Secondly, you seem to be looking to spend some serious money on kit that for the vast majority of events you won't use.

Of the three things, bivy bag, sleeping bag / quilt and mat, I'd hope that at least the latter two would get used on normal, comfortable and enjoyable BaM rides, for a significant portion of the year. There's tweaks that could be made though, Stu mentions a 3/4 length mat for instance. Swapping the NeoAir UberLite Regular for a NeoAir UberLite Small, saves £30, plus just over 100g, even if it doesn't pack down much smaller. Would I use it on a "normal" BaM ride though? Probably not, as I get cold feet. So while the small fits the criteria better than the regular, it's not something that would get much, if any, actual use. It's not that I want to be frivolous with my money, I'd tried to pick things that I thought would get used for at least four bivies a year, plus taken on all the ITTs.

So as far as mat choices go, it would appear it's a straight fight between the Exped SynMat HL M Regular Sleeping Mat and the Thermarest NeoAir UberLite Regular Sleeping Mat. I think the Thermarest edges it, due the weight and packed size advantages, even if it's got a lower R value.

Thirdly, try and carry things that double up on uses. My sillylight bag is augmented by a synthetic jacket if I did need to sleep, but I can also use the jacket as a final extra layer to ride in if I'm freezing or soaked through (hence not a down jacket).

As far as sleeping bag v quilts goes, it's a quilt all the way. Now, I could save £200 quid and not buy a Thermarest Vesper 45 UL Down Quilt, as it's only 32g lighter than my Vesper 32 UL; it does pack down smaller though. Plus, I very nearly bought the 45 UL, rather than the 32 UL, and I've been too warm on occasion, so it would definitely get used. Augmenting it with a jacket is a good point though, and something that isn't on my spreadsheet. I do have a primaloft jacket that I got off here, it's not the lightest, nor does it pack down particularly small, but it does the job. I didn't take it at the weekend, and I hummed and hawed about that decision for ages. It would've been the safer option to take it, but at the expense of extra weight and bulk for something that I probably wouldn't have worn. I had my lightweight waterproof jacket to put on if I got cold, but I did have Steve's comment about what happens if... running through my head. Might have to go back and think about this one a bit more.


Which brings us to the bivy bag. Phil mentioning midges makes me realise that I've forgotten all about those wee blighters, as we don't get many round these parts. None of the options I listed had a built in midge net, and I suppose that's the only downside to something like the AlpKit Kloke. Things like to Borah seem to require the use of a tarp if the weather is inclement, if I start to need a tarp and bivy bag, then I'm into similar weight territory as a Plexamid. The aim isn't to think, I may as well just have a nice comfortable night sleep then, so anything that also needs a tarp is out. Has anyone actually used a Adventure Medical Kits SOL Escape Bivy...? Are there other bivy bags, just like the Kloke, but with an inbuilt midge net...? The Sierra Designs Backcountry Bivy maybe, although some of the reviews are pretty terrible.

Edited to add that the trick is to embrace and enjoy the suffering. It's what makes it fun. No winking smiley.

I thought that doing the cycling was the suffering...

[sean_iow]

I think you need to decide what type of racer you are/want to be. If we go back to your original comment

If push came to shove, and I ended up stopping for the night

The BB200/BB300 is an outlier as there's a minimum kit requirement, but for other events with no required kit you need to decide beforehand if you're going to stop or not. If you are thinking about riding through then commit to it, don't pack kit that makes it easier to talk yourself into stopping.

For events up to 300km I would always choose to ride through and therefore I'd not take any sleeping kit. I carry a SOL Emergency bivi (99g) in case of actual emergencies. I have my lightweight synthetic smock and full waterproofs and that's about it. If I got injured or had a mechanical I couldn't fix I could survive the night until help arrived or I could extract myself.

If you are going to stop on an event, then if it's an ITT you want to minimise the stopped time, perhaps only 4 or 5 hours at most*. This is not enough time recover physically so you are basically just giving the contact points a rest and the mind a chance to reset. You don't need to be too comfortable and chances are you'll be so fired up by the event you wont sleep anyway.

To help with your kit choices, on an events where I needed to stop, I've used a Cumulus 150 quilt, Thermarest X-Lite and a Borah Bivi. If the forecast is wet I'll take the lightweight tarp. On the Dales Divide the forecast for the weekend was dry (2019) so I left the tarp out of the bags. The weights for those on my scales are

Cumulus 150 quilt and dry bag - 414g
X-Lite** mat - 360g
Borah bivi - 182g
Tarp/Poles/Pegs - 444g

And don't worry too much about packed size. On an ITT if you can't fit your kit in you've got too much with you

* I'm terrible at getting up, one of the reasons I ride through, so the only way I can limit my stopped time to 5 hours is to ride until 1am so it's light by the time I should be getting up as it's easier than stopping at 11pm and expecting to get up and 4 am.
** I now have an Uberlite Small mat which is listed as 158g so I'd take that.

[ScotRoutes]

Jacket - I take a Primaloft jacket on every bivvy trip. Usually a Montane Prism, though I do have an Endura one too. I almost always put it on as soon as I stop pedalling and often have it on for the first few km in the mornings too.

Bivvy bag - I have a TiGoat Kestrel. Not waterproof so usually requires a tarp. Has a bug net. I also have an Event Rab with bug net. Fully waterproof but getting to the heavy side of things. I'm awaiting a prototype of a light, waterproof bag with bug net. I'll likely do a review on here.

SOL Escape - I bought one of these for those trips where I might not want to stop but might need to. Used it once and it worked well. I also carry it as part of my winter hillwalking kit now.

Mats - there's a Sea to Summit model that might be worth considering along with the other two. Can't recall the model name, sorry.

[Boab]

Thanks both, very helpful.

I think you need to decide what type of racer you are/want to be. If we go back to your original comment

If push came to shove, and I ended up stopping for the night

The BB200/BB300 is an outlier as there's a minimum kit requirement, but for other events with no required kit you need to decide beforehand if you're going to stop or not. If you are thinking about riding through then commit to it, don't pack kit that makes it easier to talk yourself into stopping.

This is the tricky bit that I suppose I'm trying to answer. Dyffers point about looking to spend ludicrous money on stuff I hope I never use, is also pertinent at this point. Do I commit to building up an really minimalist ITT setup, or do I look to lighten my existing kit and just use that. I think I might need to do some more pondering...

For events up to 300km I would always choose to ride through and therefore I'd not take any sleeping kit. I carry a SOL Emergency bivi (99g) in case of actual emergencies. I have my lightweight synthetic smock and full waterproofs and that's about it. If I got injured or had a mechanical I couldn't fix I could survive the night until help arrived or I could extract myself.

I suppose I assumed most of these ITT events would have a minimum kit list.

If you are going to stop on an event, then if it's an ITT you want to minimise the stopped time, perhaps only 4 or 5 hours at most*. This is not enough time recover physically so you are basically just giving the contact points a rest and the mind a chance to reset. You don't need to be too comfortable and chances are you'll be so fired up by the event you wont sleep anyway.

To help with your kit choices, on an events where I needed to stop, I've used a Cumulus 150 quilt, Thermarest X-Lite and a Borah Bivi. If the forecast is wet I'll take the lightweight tarp. On the Dales Divide the forecast for the weekend was dry (2019) so I left the tarp out of the bags. The weights for those on my scales are

Cumulus 150 quilt and dry bag - 414g
X-Lite** mat - 360g
Borah bivi - 182g
Tarp/Poles/Pegs - 444g

And don't worry too much about packed size. On an ITT if you can't fit your kit in you've got too much with you

I keep looking at these bivy bag / tarp combos and thinking that I should just save up and buy the Plexamid, but that would go against the "don't pack kit that makes it easier to talk yourself into stopping" thing. It would probably also mean having to use a front roll though, rather than being able to fit it into a frame bag...

Jacket - I take a Primaloft jacket on every bivvy trip. Usually a Montane Prism, though I do have an Endura one too. I almost always put it on as soon as I stop pedalling and often have it on for the first few km in the mornings too.

I was looking at some jackets yesterday evening. That Montane, a Patagonia one plus a very light OMM one. How small does the Montane pack down to...?

Bivvy bag - I have a TiGoat Kestrel. Not waterproof so usually requires a tarp. Has a bug net. I also have an Event Rab with bug net. Fully waterproof but getting to the heavy side of things. I'm awaiting a prototype of a light, waterproof bag with bug net. I'll likely do a review on here.

SOL Escape - I bought one of these for those trips where I might not want to stop but might need to. Used it once and it worked well. I also carry it as part of my winter hillwalking kit now.

Did you also use a mat...? Do you think you could fit a mat inside it as well, or is it too small for that kind of thing? The Lightwave Cloudburst Bivi looks ideal, but [insert deity here] it's spendy...

Mats - there's a Sea to Summit model that might be worth considering along with the other two. Can't recall the model name, sorry.

Maybe the Sea to Summit Ether Light XT Sleeping Mat...? It's got an R value of 1.2 though, so I'd discounted it as it's heavier than the full length Thermarest.

[Bearbonesnorm]

Something I'd consider is, just how much easier / better is swapping your kit going to make in reality? Obviously the weight we carry does make a difference to how hard things are but a kilo (for example) is likely to make very little difference to average speed over a few hundred km.

However, stopping less, walking faster, improving technical skills will all make a noticeable difference.

[Boab]

Something I'd consider is, just how much easier / better is swapping your kit going to make in reality? Obviously the weight we carry does make a difference to how hard things are but a kilo (for example) is likely to make very little difference to average speed over a few hundred km.

However, stopping less, walking faster, improving technical skills will all make a noticeable difference.

I think I'm going to have to plan a long bivy ride for next month, where I can really think about this stuff while actually doing it. I keep looking at it like it's two side to the same coin, maybe it's not. Maybe BaM rides and ITTs are too different in approach. I've been trying to stop less, but I do like to take a photograph or ten, especially when I've never been somewhere before. As for improving technical skills, that is somewhere that I could make up a whole chunk of time, maybe it's finally time to go on a skills course...

[Bearlegged]

What do you actually want to achieve? Is it a case of aiming for "a fast time", or just completing the challenge?

My one and only BB200 attempt was last year, and I wanted to get round in time for a badge. TBH, I wasn't sure I'd manage the first part when I set out, but it all came good in the end. According to Strava, my moving time was over 21 hours - it seems there are plenty of others who manage the whole thing in less than this. In total, I took just over 34 hours, including 6-7 hours kip overnight.
In retrospect, I probably went pretty belt and braces, but I doubt I'd have gone much faster or stopped for less sleep, even with minimal kit.

I guess there's a large helping of HYOH to be had with this!