Bye bye access rights

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faustus
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Re: Bye bye access rights

Post by faustus »

@JackT a similar right is the premise that begins Jim Crace's Harvest, a good novel with historical commoners rights at its heart...
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JackT
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Re: Bye bye access rights

Post by JackT »

Dave Barter wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 12:26 pm We don’t ban picnics on the beach. Our community feels ownership and we gather to litter pick. Next week I’m doing a harbour clean via kayak. We accept that there will be transgressions but mobilise communities instead of moaning and banning. I’m quite inspired by how it works as locals feel the sea is theirs. That’s what I’m trying and failing to put across. Bans kill this spirit and we can’t retreat into a defeatist attitude that with a will we could change it all for the better.
Good point, well made Dave. Is it exactly because no one owns the beach and the sea that means everybody can feel a sense of common ownership?
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Bearbonesnorm
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Re: Bye bye access rights

Post by Bearbonesnorm »

We don’t ban picnics on the beach. Our community feels ownership and we gather to litter pick. Next week I’m doing a harbour clean via kayak. We accept that there will be transgressions but mobilise communities instead of moaning and banning. I’m quite inspired by how it works as locals feel the sea is theirs. That’s what I’m trying and failing to put across. Bans kill this spirit and we can’t retreat into a defeatist attitude that with a will we could change it all for the better.
I genuinely take my hat off to you and the community Dave but I question what happens on Dartmoor or the slopes of Snowdon where there is no community on hand to pick up the slack?
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Lazarus
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Re: Bye bye access rights

Post by Lazarus »

I think both sides have a point but Tories will always exploit perceived problems to favour the rich ( not least as half the cabinet are big landowners so they know the problems of trespass but not the problem of no space ).
That said it's also clear that many folk don't respect anything ( and it's not just because they don't own it ) and don't know how to act responsibly.
None of this really deals with the issue it just restricts access for the many because of the few.( Landowners and mess makers )
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Piemonster
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Re: Bye bye access rights

Post by Piemonster »

Thanks for this point. I am sometimes surprised at the victim-blaming/self-flagellating narratives about this that come up in outdoor communities
I’m not sure anyone is doing this. Acknowledging anti social behaviour exists is very different to doffing your cap to landowners. I’m not sure dismissing concerns about ASB as playing into the hands of landowners is helpful either.

Is there really anyone here who ‘wants’ access restricted. Or is there a near universal ‘want’ for open access?
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Re: Bye bye access rights

Post by lune ranger »

Bearbonesnorm wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 11:56 am Contrary to how it might appear, I actually agree with most of the comments posted BUT I don't think we should lose sight of the fact that this began as a conversation about the NPA response to the immediate problem of anti-social and blatantly cockish behaviour. Yes, maybe they could take a different approach to deal with the problem but I've not heard any suggestions yet?

Yes, there's very little 'wild' left out there and in many cases land management has been poor over the years but does that mean that we shouldn't do all we can to protect and conserve what's left or care less about it because someone didn't care before? The nice car down the road doesn't belong to me, yet I don't go down there and curl one out on the bonnet because it's not mine.
All the ‘cockish’ behaviour could be dealt with under existing legislation and bylaws.
Lighting fires, leaving rubbish and public intoxication are illegal everywhere in the UK. Camping next to the road, or for more than two night or in large groups is already prohibited on Dartmoor.
If DNP want to crack down of knobbers they already have all the tools they need.
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Bearbonesnorm
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Re: Bye bye access rights

Post by Bearbonesnorm »

All the ‘cockish’ behaviour could be dealt with under existing legislation and bylaws.
Lighting fires, leaving rubbish and public intoxication are illegal everywhere in the UK. Camping next to the road, or for more than two night or in large groups is already prohibited on Dartmoor.
If DNP want to crack down of knobbers they already have all the tools they need.
That's interesting Luke. As I said earlier, if any measures aren't enforced then they're meaningless. If the NP can't curb behaviour with the tools already at their disposal then obviously there's little chance anything new would alter that ... unless the 'news' of what they're planning is simply a ploy to put people off?
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Dave Barter
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Re: Bye bye access rights

Post by Dave Barter »

No person shall play or operate or knowingly cause or permit to be played or operated any musical instrument, radio, television set, record, cassette, CD, DVD player, amplifier, phone or smart speaker using an internet or mobile connection, or similar appliance in such a manner as to give reasonable cause for annoyance to another person on the Access Land.
I can get somebody fined £1000 for daring to listen to Coldplay within my earshot.

Maybe there is an upside?
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jobro
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Re: Bye bye access rights

Post by jobro »

I joined this site a year or so ago to try and learn as much as I could about bike packing. Now I've learnt an awful lot about rights of way, land access and what can be done about it. Thank you.
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Re: Bye bye access rights

Post by BigdummySteve »

In Reverse wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 11:37 am I don't see a problem with anything in those amendments tbh - the provisions made are a lot better than I expected when I opened the thread.
Agreed, the camping ones in particular seem to protect what the access rights were for in the first place. We should be be applauding the fact that you now can’t erect a huge family tent and have your COVID summer holiday on Dartmoor, as for the 30 plus bike thing that seems like a sensible approach to limit damage to a sensitive environment.

I’m not seeing limiting access rights, just the abuse of those rights. Given what we saw over lockdown it could have been far worse
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Re: Bye bye access rights

Post by fatbikephil »

Dave Barter wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:49 pm
No person shall play or operate or knowingly cause or permit to be played or operated any musical instrument, radio, television set, record, cassette, CD, DVD player, amplifier, phone or smart speaker using an internet or mobile connection, or similar appliance in such a manner as to give reasonable cause for annoyance to another person on the Access Land.
I can get somebody fined £1000 for daring to listen to Coldplay within my earshot.

Maybe there is an upside?
There was a guy playing the bag pipes (badly) at the side of the road in Glencoe the other day. Wonder if Highland Council could introduce that bit. :-bd
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Re: Bye bye access rights

Post by Cheeky Monkey »

They are *beautifully* written, aren't they :roll: It's a crying shame they can't codify Rule 1 in law :wink:

Basing things on the Summer of 2020 is a flawed approach IMO, it was massively atypical (I wonder why :roll:). Once *normal* travel opportunities open back up pressure in UK will reduce, to what degree I'm not sure, but I suspect a lot.

We had some folks (4 vans at one point I was told) in the car park at Stainburn recently. Living the *van life* with their / some kids. Seems a good thing (I used to hammock with one of mine there years ago although we went a bit further than the edge of the parking area) except they decided to have a fire in a less than appropriate location, cut down masses of live tree growth to make a den (and probably burn), left a full bin bag of rubbish (I guess bagging it was a positive, shame they thought someone else should carry it away rather than one of them in their oh-so-tiny vans :roll:) and then chucked what was assumed to be the sh1t bucket over the ground.

Hey ho :|
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Re: Bye bye access rights

Post by Lazarus »

Having done van life decades ago I can confirm no tip anywhere lets a van in to get rid of rubbish and
It was a massive pain in the arse having to dispose of your own rubbish - which i always did

My point is we often moan at people forpoor decisions but we also give them no opportuinity/make it very difficult for them to do the right thing. Car campers, for example, could be given the odd layby to destroy and have their vehicle seized if doing it elsewhere. I am not defending them but sometimes it better to accept reality and deal with mess makers, who go to the countryside, than implement laws we dont have the ability to enforce and impact on the lawful more than the lawbreaker.

See also travellers parking in the wrong places and councils never providing sites for them [ despite the law requiring it]
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Re: Bye bye access rights

Post by Cheeky Monkey »

I have toss all sympathy re: the rubbish and van/tip issues in this case as you just take it home and put it in your wheelie bin. Even if it was a PITA, tough, your rubbish, you sort it :cool:

Agree - no policing, even if the rules are "good", means there's no point in those or any rules. Plus those breaking good rules out of ignorance / without malice etc *could* be dealt with by better means than plod, fines etc.
Linkpin
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Re: Bye bye access rights

Post by Linkpin »

I work with teenagers, predominantly from big cities, who come to our farm in rural Monmouthshire for a week. Many of them are from deprived backgrounds and some have experienced very little of the world beyond their neighbourhood. They generally turn up with no knowledge of the countryside - which is understandable as many of them have never been there.

I find that as long as it's explained to them clearly why it's beneficial to nature and the local environment to behave in a certain way, they almost always will.

"Don't drop litter" is a fairly arbitrary instruction to many, for example, if it's not accompanied by an explanation of the harm it can do to wildlife. By the end of their stay kids are often found picking up others people's litter of their own accord.

The wider point I'm feeding into here is to agree with those who've expressed discomfort at an exclusionary attitude to the countryside. I'm another Book of Trespass convert and the passage in the opening chapter where a landowner asks the author, "Are you lost?" really chimes with me as I have seen those same exchanges in person when taking the kids I work with for a walk. Although most people are very nice, somes folks' response to seeing 12 black boys from London climbing the Skirrid can be fairly eye-opening.

Most people are polite but their interactions often make it clear that they feel the kids have come into 'their' domain and sometimes openly express doubt that they will care for it in the proper manner. Sadly, these doubts often seem to subside somewhat when they spot that I, a white man dressed in 'outdoorsy' clothes, am the responsible adult.

Of course rules need to be enforced to ensure that the countryside is cared for and treated respectfully, but that should be with the aim to welcome and include everyone who wants to enjoy it.
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Re: Bye bye access rights

Post by Bearbonesnorm »

but that should be with the aim to welcome and include everyone who wants to enjoy it.
... in a responsible and respectful manner. Lots of people want to enjoy it but for some, their enjoyment appears to rank above anything else.
"Are you lost?"
I say that to people who turn up in the yard. I don't say it because they're in my yard, I say it because (a) they look lost and (b) because I know they are lost - otherwise they wouldn't be here. In truth, I wouldn't really know what else to say. I then usually ask where they want to be and where they're hoping to go. I then offer directions and any advice that seems appropriate. There's no malice, it's simply a case of that seeming like the best question.
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RIP
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Re: Bye bye access rights

Post by RIP »

Fair enough Stu re "lost?" but you must admit that tone of voice and expression can load that question in different ways, and it is a reasonably common substitute for "git orf moi lahnd"...
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Bearbonesnorm
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Re: Bye bye access rights

Post by Bearbonesnorm »

True, are you lost?' and 'are you lost?' can sound very different depending on tone and delivery. I suppose that I was just trying to make the point that sometimes it can be a genuine question meant with good intent.
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Re: Bye bye access rights

Post by Lazarus »

The point is have you ever said are you lost to a black person just because they were in the countryside doing what white folk do. ( Or to a woman on a bike etc)

It's fair enough to say to someone obviously lost.

Re vans above I lived in mine and being in a strange area with no access to dumps removing your rubbish appropriately is not easy and requires efforts. Society may be cleaner if it removes these barriers ( not that dumping is ever excusable)
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Re: Bye bye access rights

Post by Bearbonesnorm »

The point is have you ever said are you lost to a black person just because they were in the countryside doing what white folk do. ( Or to a woman on a bike etc)
I don't distinguish John - sex, colour or creed means nowt to me. However, I did once ask Ronnie Corbett if he was lost when I stumbled across him on the slopes of Plynlimon some years ago. :-bd
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Re: Bye bye access rights

Post by Richard G »

In Reverse wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 11:37 am I don't see a problem with anything in those amendments tbh - the provisions made are a lot better than I expected when I opened the thread.
To be honest, that was largely how I felt about it.

No question it may be the thin end of the wedge, but as stands there's a good amount of common sense in there. I can't speak for the areas where camping has been fully banned though, I don't know the area well enough.
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Dave Barter
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Re: Bye bye access rights

Post by Dave Barter »

Richard G wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 1:58 pm
In Reverse wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 11:37 am I don't see a problem with anything in those amendments tbh - the provisions made are a lot better than I expected when I opened the thread.
To be honest, that was largely how I felt about it.

No question it may be the thin end of the wedge, but as stands there's a good amount of common sense in there. I can't speak for the areas where camping has been fully banned though, I don't know the area well enough.
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Re: Bye bye access rights

Post by redefined_cycles »

Well done linkpin and thanks :-bd
Last edited by redefined_cycles on Thu Sep 16, 2021 2:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bye bye access rights

Post by RIP »

Bearbonesnorm wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 1:19 pm I did once ask Ronnie Corbett if he was lost when I stumbled across him on the slopes of Plynlimon some years ago. :-bd
Surprised you could see him above the height of the tussocks :smile:
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Re: Bye bye access rights

Post by redefined_cycles »

:lol:
RIP wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 2:42 pm
Bearbonesnorm wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 1:19 pm I did once ask Ronnie Corbett if he was lost when I stumbled across him on the slopes of Plynlimon some years ago. :-bd
Surprised you could see him above the height of the tussocks :smile:
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