A Bike Race (around Wales)

[Bearbonesnorm]

Strava and similar tools have no way to prevent trail use being logged in an area

There is a simple solution James. It just requires people to take some personal responsibility

[ABikeRace]

Hey all. Love the feedback on the event thanks.

With the checkpoints and potentially boring roads in-between, we hope the waypoint locations will take riders off the boring roads to find their way. The waypoints are made public up to 48 hours before the race so riders could plan the route on their pc or laptop pre race. We just wanted it to be more last minute to maybe add some excitement to it. Who knows??

Anyway. Love the feedback so far and hopefully see some of you enter. Happy to offer a small discount to BEAR BONES forum users. Enjoy

[Cheeky Monkey]

In advocacy situations I've had Strava mapping thrown at me to make the case against riding. One in particular was the speed that was recorded , not just the location.

Another time was because the route name was "Harde'n Fast". Because it contained the word "fast". I sub standard you not

[jameso]

Strava and similar tools have no way to prevent trail use being logged in an area

There is a simple solution James. It just requires people to take some personal responsibility

Errr. Yeah... Problem solved

[ABikeRace]

The waypoints are what make this route, you'll know the checkpoints but won't have a clue where you have to go in-between until the waypoint locations are revealed the day before the event.

To be given checkpoints last minute would be me swearing at a Garmin on a regular basis but it's good that a smart navigator could have a big advantage. Favours tech on the bike though which is a shame for this luddite : ) I'd prefer time to plan my route in advance, TCR style. Main route, conditions options, notes etc all planned in advance to reward experience as well as fitness - TCR format appeals more in that respect.

Still, for me the classic set route races have a lot more appeal and interest than the TCR approach where the faster road options are usually less pleasant roads (though I'm sure the TCR put a lot of time and smart into checkpoint placement and roads into them to bias the routes well). I suppose I'm not that interested in a rider's navigation ability now it's all down to GPS and how good your tech is, more interested in how a set routes simplifies racing to the ability and strategy of the rider. If I want to see great navigation I can follow tourers like Ryan Wilson, you probably find the best routes when there's no time pressure.

Very much agree with you on this. If you look at Start to CP1, near Swansea, that is just the A48 all the way. No joy, no reward. If the checkpoint had been at the top of one of the S.Wales peaks like Bwlch or Maerdy mountains that would have made route choice more interesting, the riding far better and more enjoyable.
CP2, Pembroke again lots of busy dual carriageway and overall I think every single road will be an A road.

The checkpoints are sent out and made public as soon as we confirm venues. The Waypoints will be made public roughly 48 hours before the event, plenty of time to plan. The Waypoints will take you close to the coast so with around four Waypoints in-between each checkpoint you won't be spending much time on busy roads. We have had a mix of entries so far from road racers, bike packers and gravel riders, we even have an MTB club who are interested. Be great to see the mix of riders and bikes on the start line.

[Bearbonesnorm]

Purely out of interest - how are you skirting the issue of 'racing'? Obviously there's no set or defined route but if riders choose to use BW to link checkpoints then technically, they're racing a bike on a BW.

[ABikeRace]

By the seat of our pants!!!

Based on the current route we have sort of laid out connecting the dots, it won't be quicker going that way.

Obvs this is the first time we have run an event, any advice is gladly welcome.

[Bearbonesnorm]

Obvs this is the first time we have run an event, any advice is gladly welcome.

Genuinely, I think the worst thing anyone can do is use the word 'race'. In my experience (and I may just be unlucky), it's like a red rag to a bull.

[ABikeRace]

Our plan is for the this to be one of many races we hold every year, some will be set route races, others using checkpoints but we thought we would start with this in 2022 and build from there.

What's wrong with a 'race', genuine question? Who are the bulls in this?

[Bearbonesnorm]

What's wrong with a 'race', genuine question? Who are the bulls in this?

It's illegal to race a bicycle on a bridleway (old law but one that's still very much in force). 'Race' also includes 'speed trial' so any form of timing is a no no.

The bull in question ranges from informed members of the public to national park authorities, NRW and really anyone with an axe they'd like to put an edge on. The word 'race' is an open invite for them to take a closer look and potentially make life very difficult indeed.

[ABikeRace]

Thanks for the heads up. I'll add it to the rules that BW etc are illegal to race on and that we do not advise doing so... think that will work?

Thanks again

[whitestone]

I don't think it's that old TBH Stu, 1988 - https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/19 ... view=plain Section 31 pt2 - Regulation of cycle racing on public ways:

The Secretary of State may by regulations authorise, or provide for authorising, for the purposes of subsection (1) above, the holding on a public way other than a bridleway

[Bearbonesnorm]

Thanks for the heads up. I'll add it to the rules that BW etc are illegal to race on and that we do not advise doing so... think that will work?

It's worth a go and certainly wouldn't do any harm but 'challenge' would still be much better than 'race' IMO.

I don't think it's that old TBH Stu, 1988 - https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/19 ... view=plain Section 31 pt2 - Regulation of cycle racing on public ways:

Ooh I thought it was much older Bob and something to do with 'frantic cycling'. I'll do some more looking up. Maybe '88 was a revision or update perhaps?

[Lazarus]

i thought you could not race on open roads either hence why the time trial was invented as- its technically not a race- IANAL and i am not that informed either. Is there a way of letting them all go at 1 min intervals and calling it a time trial so its therefore not strictly a race?

[ABikeRace]

i thought you could not race on open roads either hence why the time trial was invented as- its technically not a race- IANAL and i am not that informed either. Is there a way of letting them all go at 1 min intervals and calling it a time trial so its therefore not strictly a race?

Nice idea.

[ABikeRace]

i thought you could not race on open roads either hence why the time trial was invented as- its technically not a race- IANAL and i am not that informed either. Is there a way of letting them all go at 1 min intervals and calling it a time trial so its therefore not strictly a race?

Nice idea.

Actually this is a great idea.... with it being a free route event if one or two riders went off every 2 minutes there would be less chance of everyone just following the person in front of them. Maybe. Interesting.

[whitestone]

i thought you could not race on open roads either hence why the time trial was invented as- its technically not a race- IANAL and i am not that informed either. Is there a way of letting them all go at 1 min intervals and calling it a time trial so its therefore not strictly a race?

Nice idea.

Actually this is a great idea.... with it being a free route event if one or two riders went off every 2 minutes there would be less chance of everyone just following the person in front of them. Maybe. Interesting.

It's the way the BB200 now starts - you can start at any time within a two hour window. Stuart just chats to you to make sure you don't start too close to the rider in front

[fatbikephil]

It's the way the BB200 now starts - you can start at any time within a two hour window. Stuart just chats to you to make sure you don't start too close to the rider in front

The Highland Trail was a staggered start this year for covid stuff but it's quite a nice way of doing it as there is less chance of going to hard at the start chasing other riders, then blowing up..... (which I did anyway)

[jameso]

The Waypoints will be made public roughly 48 hours before the event, plenty of time to plan.

Could more than 48hrs mean you'd be able to claim riders have enough time to be sure they're taking routes that are within whatever guidelines you put in place? You can't control where they go but it might be more realistic to expect certain things if there's a bit more time.
The ITT thing vs the mass start seems sensible. We all like to go as fast as we can on a bridleway at times but more daft things seem to happen between riders or other road/trail users when riders starts at the same time and sees everyone as a competitor / every overtake is a place won. I don't think that happens in Bikepacking events, numbers are far lower too, saw enough of it in sportives though. It may help with perception of an event.

[Bearbonesnorm]

While things like a staggered or free start and guidance regarding RoW will certainly help shape perception, it may only help once people dig a little deeper. I do think there's a rather large elephant in the room which may reduce the effectiveness of anything else.

[pistonbroke]

Road Traffic Act 1988 Section 31

31Regulation of cycle racing on public ways.
(1)A person who promotes or takes part in a race or trial of speed on a public way between cycles is guilty of an offence, unless the race or trial—
(a)is authorised, and
(b)is conducted in accordance with any conditions imposed,by or under regulations under this section.
(2)The Secretary of State may by regulations authorise, or provide for authorising, for the purposes of subsection (1) above, the holding on a public way other than a bridleway—
(a)of races or trials of speed of any class or description, or
(b)of a particular race or trial of speed,in such cases as may be prescribed and subject to such conditions as may be imposed by or under the regulations.
(3)Regulations under this section may—
(a)prescribe the procedure to be followed, and the particulars to be given, in connection with applications for authorisation under the regulations, and
(b)make different provision for different classes or descriptions of race or trial.
(4)Without prejudice to any other powers exercisable in that behalf, the chief officer of police may give directions with respect to the movement of, or the route to be followed by, vehicular traffic during any period, being directions which it is necessary or expedient to give in relation to that period to prevent or mitigate—
(a)congestion or obstruction of traffic, or
(b)danger to or from traffic,in consequence of the holding of a race or trial of speed authorised by or under regulations under this section.
(5)Directions under subsection (4) above may include a direction that any road or part of a road specified in the direction shall be closed during the period to vehicles or to vehicles of a class so specified.
[F1(6)In this section “public way” means, in England and Wales, a highway, and in Scotland, a public road but does not include a footpath.]

I'd love to see the risk assesment of this event.
During my several years on the Governing Body of Trailquest we were constantly having to negotiate the law relating to competing on bicycles on public highways where there was no fixed route. The events were "score" based rather than based on the fastest time, even the tie break procedure was non time related. Whilst anyone who has the dedication and commitment to organise bike events has my admiration, the implications of running what could be consrued as an illegal event are that the organiser could be held personally liable for damages arising from injury both to competitors and third parties which could run into thousands of pounds. Any requirement for personal insurance or disclaimers about not using bridleways are worthless in a court of law.
Also, my personal opinion is that more emphasis on the quality of the event and less on the size of the prize fund is needed.

[ABikeRace]

Road Traffic Act 1988 Section 31

31Regulation of cycle racing on public ways.
(1)A person who promotes or takes part in a race or trial of speed on a public way between cycles is guilty of an offence, unless the race or trial—
(a)is authorised, and
(b)is conducted in accordance with any conditions imposed,by or under regulations under this section.
(2)The Secretary of State may by regulations authorise, or provide for authorising, for the purposes of subsection (1) above, the holding on a public way other than a bridleway—
(a)of races or trials of speed of any class or description, or
(b)of a particular race or trial of speed,in such cases as may be prescribed and subject to such conditions as may be imposed by or under the regulations.
(3)Regulations under this section may—
(a)prescribe the procedure to be followed, and the particulars to be given, in connection with applications for authorisation under the regulations, and
(b)make different provision for different classes or descriptions of race or trial.
(4)Without prejudice to any other powers exercisable in that behalf, the chief officer of police may give directions with respect to the movement of, or the route to be followed by, vehicular traffic during any period, being directions which it is necessary or expedient to give in relation to that period to prevent or mitigate—
(a)congestion or obstruction of traffic, or
(b)danger to or from traffic,in consequence of the holding of a race or trial of speed authorised by or under regulations under this section.
(5)Directions under subsection (4) above may include a direction that any road or part of a road specified in the direction shall be closed during the period to vehicles or to vehicles of a class so specified.
[F1(6)In this section “public way” means, in England and Wales, a highway, and in Scotland, a public road but does not include a footpath.]

I'd love to see the risk assesment of this event.
During my several years on the Governing Body of Trailquest we were constantly having to negotiate the law relating to competing on bicycles on public highways where there was no fixed route. The events were "score" based rather than based on the fastest time, even the tie break procedure was non time related. Whilst anyone who has the dedication and commitment to organise bike events has my admiration, the implications of running what could be consrued as an illegal event are that the organiser could be held personally liable for damages arising from injury both to competitors and third parties which could run into thousands of pounds. Any requirement for personal insurance or disclaimers about not using bridleways are worthless in a court of law.
Also, my personal opinion is that more emphasis on the quality of the event and less on the size of the prize fund is needed.

Yeah I have mentioned the prize fund but tried not to over egg it... or i hope I have. Initially I didn't want to say how much the prize pot would be but then thought leaving it as TBC people may think they could only win £20 or something.

Massive thank you for all the feedback so far and it's being taken on board and I will be updating the site this week with more info. Thanks

[mattpage]

If you saw the huge, in-depth risk assessments that genuine, certified British Cycling road races have to go through and the staffing and marshalling that is needed, such as motorcycle NEG who have powers to stop traffic, perhaps then you might see why classing it as a race is so difficult.

If a rider has an accident during your event, would your events insurance cover a legal challenge?

I think this is a huge, risky undertaking for an inexperienced events company and some of that is very evident from this thread.

[Supernova]

Ah, that legislation must be why Man vs Horse vs Bike dropped the bike element in the late 80s.

Don’t know why horses are still allowed to race on bridleways though.

[ABikeRace]

If you saw the huge, in-depth risk assessments that genuine, certified British Cycling road races have to go through and the staffing and marshalling that is needed, such as motorcycle NEG who have powers to stop traffic, perhaps then you might see why classing it as a race is so difficult.

If a rider has an accident during your event, would your events insurance cover a legal challenge?

I think this is a huge, risky undertaking for an inexperienced events company and some of that is very evident from this thread.

Take the feedback. We're just a group of riders trying to put on an event we thought would be something different. We classed it as a race as we want to see which who is the fastest in covering our course and think it's the best way to describe it.

All food for thought though, again thank you for the feedback