A Bike Race (around Wales)

Talk about anything.

Moderators: Bearbonesnorm, Taylor, Chew

mattpage
Posts: 327
Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2014 10:35 am

Re: A Bike Race (around Wales)

Post by mattpage »

Supernova wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 10:46 pm Ah, that legislation must be why Man vs Horse vs Bike dropped the bike element in the late 80s.

Don’t know why horses are still allowed to race on bridleways though.
You can also close a footpath and then legally race bikes upon it, but you are not able to close a bridleway to have a race.
I have absolutely no idea why and I have asked council rights of way officers in the past and no one has been able to give a clear answer why.
User avatar
ABikeRace
Posts: 16
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2021 9:45 am

Re: A Bike Race (around Wales)

Post by ABikeRace »

mattpage wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 10:58 pm
Supernova wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 10:46 pm Ah, that legislation must be why Man vs Horse vs Bike dropped the bike element in the late 80s.

Don’t know why horses are still allowed to race on bridleways though.
You can also close a footpath and then legally race bikes upon it, but you are not able to close a bridleway to have a race.
I have absolutely no idea why and I have asked council rights of way officers in the past and no one has been able to give a clear answer why.

We’re not looking to have any roads closed for this event / challenge / race 👀

The staggered start is a suggestion we will certainly put in place.

From the entries we have had so far, feedback from potential entrants and feedback from the sponsors we have had so far is all positive but we do appreciate the critical feedback too and welcome it as we want to have everything perfect for May 20th
User avatar
Cheeky Monkey
Posts: 3915
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2011 1:48 pm
Location: Leeds ish
Contact:

Re: A Bike Race (around Wales)

Post by Cheeky Monkey »

Is there event insurance in place?
User avatar
ABikeRace
Posts: 16
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2021 9:45 am

Re: A Bike Race (around Wales)

Post by ABikeRace »

Cheeky Monkey wrote: Wed Aug 25, 2021 12:41 am Is there event insurance in place?
Currently speaking to some companies about this
lune ranger
Posts: 2380
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:52 pm
Location: Peoples Republic of Devon

Re: A Bike Race (around Wales)

Post by lune ranger »

ABikeRace wrote: Wed Aug 25, 2021 6:09 am
Cheeky Monkey wrote: Wed Aug 25, 2021 12:41 am Is there event insurance in place?
Currently speaking to some companies about this
But you’re already taking peoples money :shock:
If you are going through hell, keep going.
WSC
User avatar
Bearbonesnorm
Posts: 23904
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 8:53 pm
Location: my own little world

Re: A Bike Race (around Wales)

Post by Bearbonesnorm »

We’re not looking to have any roads closed for this event / challenge / race 👀
I think Matt's point was that 'you can't even close a BW to have bikes race on it'. You can race cars, motorbikes, horses and people on them, just not bikes. Open or closed makes no difference to that.
From the entries we have had so far, feedback from potential entrants and feedback from the sponsors we have had so far is all positive
That really doesn't matter. Entrants and sponsors are both unlikely to have little or no idea about the legality of these things or the potential implications of running them.

I appreciate that the word 'race' is quite emotive and let's be honest, a bit sexy even. It attracts riders and sponsors but also outside interest of the unwelcome type. Personally, I'd remove the word 'race' from all publicity. I'd stagger the start times, offer prizes for something other than times (distance travelled, max elevation gain, etc) and place the focus on reliability. Do that and you negate many of the potential problems.
May the bridges you burn light your way
pistonbroke
Posts: 2123
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2012 9:39 am
Location: Southern Cataluña
Contact:

Re: A Bike Race (around Wales)

Post by pistonbroke »

@Abikerace you may think from some of the responses on this thread that we are a bunch of grumpy bastards trying to undermine your event before it's started. Nothing could be further from the truth. We are trying to avoid you going the way of many organisers who believe they have come up with an event format popular in many other parts of the world which might capture the imagination of the large and growing band of riders wanting a long distance race.
Many other "races" have either fizzled out due to organisers not making the money they anticipated, or have disappeared down the rabbit hole of beurocacy that we have highlighted earlier, some have simply gone underground just winging it.
I organised mountainbike orienteering in mid Wales for the best part of 10 years and Stu (Bearbonesnorm) has subsequently run the WRT and BB200 over a similar period. You would do a lot worse than carefully read the BB200 info on the home page here, more for what it doesn't claim than what it does.
Basing the attraction of your event on the chance of winning a large cash prize is, imo, likely to make you a literal hostage to fortune. If riders are motivated by winning a 4 figure sum, you will have to find a way of verifying their honesty and avoid bad feeling from other competitors.
The liability thing is very important, as the organiser you will be PERSONALLY LIABLE for the fuckwittery of competitors.
Charging £150 entry will mean an obligation to provide an good experience for all the riders not just those at the sharp end racing for money. It's slightly saddening that a glossy website and social media exposure is the first (and sometimes only) thing that wouldbe organisers have to get right when putting an event together, but I guess it is 2021.
User avatar
RIP
Posts: 9007
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2014 7:24 pm
Location: Surfing The Shores Of Sanity Since 1959
Contact:

Re: A Bike Race (around Wales)

Post by RIP »

^ good post that. PERSONALLY LIABLE. Tends to concentrate the mind a bit. I've heard that the food in Her Majesty's involuntary residential establishments is not what it used to be so best steer clear of them if possible.

I'm just gearing up to do a bit more Bikeability and coaching this Autumn to keep my hand in (*). I'd forgotten that the size of all the RA manuals, notes, procedures, paperwork etc far outweigh the size of the actual fun bits of the courses themselves!

(*) first booking is in at the deep end - balance bikes with the tiny tots in Year R. Herding felines doesn't even come close. Hell of a lot of fun balanced (ho ho) by the nerve-wracking aspects :wink:
"My God, Ponsonby, I'm two-thirds of the way to the grave and what have I done?" - RIP

The sign outside the asylum is the wrong way round.....

"At least you got some stories" - James Acaster
User avatar
ABikeRace
Posts: 16
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2021 9:45 am

Re: A Bike Race (around Wales)

Post by ABikeRace »

lune ranger wrote: Wed Aug 25, 2021 7:12 am
ABikeRace wrote: Wed Aug 25, 2021 6:09 am
Cheeky Monkey wrote: Wed Aug 25, 2021 12:41 am Is there event insurance in place?
Currently speaking to some companies about this
But you’re already taking peoples money :shock:
If the event couldn’t take place they would be refunded
User avatar
GregMay
Posts: 3806
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2015 12:57 pm
Location: Calderdale
Contact:

Re: A Bike Race (around Wales)

Post by GregMay »

Image
Image
lune ranger
Posts: 2380
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:52 pm
Location: Peoples Republic of Devon

Re: A Bike Race (around Wales)

Post by lune ranger »

ABikeRace wrote: Wed Aug 25, 2021 3:55 pm
lune ranger wrote: Wed Aug 25, 2021 7:12 am
ABikeRace wrote: Wed Aug 25, 2021 6:09 am
Cheeky Monkey wrote: Wed Aug 25, 2021 12:41 am Is there event insurance in place?
Currently speaking to some companies about this
But you’re already taking peoples money :shock:
If the event couldn’t take place they would be refunded
Is this a case of… ‘make a website first, ask questions after?’
If you are going through hell, keep going.
WSC
User avatar
ABikeRace
Posts: 16
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2021 9:45 am

Re: A Bike Race (around Wales)

Post by ABikeRace »

pistonbroke wrote: Wed Aug 25, 2021 9:06 am @Abikerace you may think from some of the responses on this thread that we are a bunch of grumpy bastards trying to undermine your event before it's started. Nothing could be further from the truth. We are trying to avoid you going the way of many organisers who believe they have come up with an event format popular in many other parts of the world which might capture the imagination of the large and growing band of riders wanting a long distance race.
Many other "races" have either fizzled out due to organisers not making the money they anticipated, or have disappeared down the rabbit hole of beurocacy that we have highlighted earlier, some have simply gone underground just winging it.
I organised mountainbike orienteering in mid Wales for the best part of 10 years and Stu (Bearbonesnorm) has subsequently run the WRT and BB200 over a similar period. You would do a lot worse than carefully read the BB200 info on the home page here, more for what it doesn't claim than what it does.
Basing the attraction of your event on the chance of winning a large cash prize is, imo, likely to make you a literal hostage to fortune. If riders are motivated by winning a 4 figure sum, you will have to find a way of verifying their honesty and avoid bad feeling from other competitors.
The liability thing is very important, as the organiser you will be PERSONALLY LIABLE for the fuckwittery of competitors.
Charging £150 entry will mean an obligation to provide an good experience for all the riders not just those at the sharp end racing for money. It's slightly saddening that a glossy website and social media exposure is the first (and sometimes only) thing that wouldbe organisers have to get right when putting an event together, but I guess it is 2021.
I'll take a good look at BB200 thank you. Don't think you're grumpy bastards, happy for the feedback as i said before. thanks
pistonbroke
Posts: 2123
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2012 9:39 am
Location: Southern Cataluña
Contact:

Re: A Bike Race (around Wales)

Post by pistonbroke »

Having just returned from a 1,000km round trip to the Rioja region which was a complete waste of time due the the event (L'Eroica Hispania) being cancelled with 2 hours to go before registration opened, my thoughts when driving back turned to this event. L'Eroica events attract riders from all over the world and this edition had limited entries to 650. The cancellation was ordered by the ministry of traffic due to the regional cycle federation having failed to adhere to the 30 day notice of it's taking place and pay a €20 admin fee!
When this came onto the Bearbones radar in August, several of us made cautionary comments about promoting it as a race with the arcane laws preventing racing on bridleways and it possibly falling foul of other Road Traffic Act laws, rendering insurance (is there any yet?) invalid. The organiser contributed to the thread, promising to take on board the "Race" aspect of the event but in the 2 months since the last post, nothing seems to have been modified on the website, it refers to being a race every other line of the text, you don't have to look far to find reference to a £1,500 prize fund. Seems that the entries are being invited without much interest in dotting the i's.
boxelder
Posts: 1525
Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2014 8:05 pm

Re: A Bike Race (around Wales)

Post by boxelder »

Thanks for the heads up. I'll add it to the rules that BW etc are illegal to race on and that we do not advise doing so... think that will work?
No, unless you have marshals making sure this is adhered to. Take the example of old quarries - they can put 'No Climbing' signs up everywhere, but would still be liable if they couldn't show that they had taken measures to prevent someone from trying to climb.
Komoot will be your friend for planning your route before and during the race
- from the website.....

If I, or a family member were injured in this as or by a 'racer' I might be inclined to pursue the organiser for reparation/compensation, along with Komoot, if the app was proved to have recommended the route to 'race' on, given the legislation outlined above.

I can't see any insurer giving any degree of public liability cover for this.

As above, not meaning to sound grumpy, but I'd be really concerned for you personally as the organiser, and for the 'shitstorm' that could result from a serious incident/costly legal action. Have a look at what happened with enduro/DH events after the spectator tragically died in Wales a few years ago - and that was someone who had chosen to go and stand nearby to watch at an event which was found to be well risk assessed and managed.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-48776346

You could be seen to be encouraging riders to race for over 24 hours, without rest, across any public ways, without any real control of them. Why offer a cash prize anyway?
Last edited by boxelder on Mon Oct 18, 2021 2:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
boxelder
Posts: 1525
Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2014 8:05 pm

Re: A Bike Race (around Wales)

Post by boxelder »

Don’t know why horses are still allowed to race on bridleways though.
You can also close a footpath and then legally race bikes upon it, but you are not able to close a bridleway to have a race.
I suspect this is very much down to the lobbying/influence of the well organised and influential 'horsey' community - they are bridleways after all.
User avatar
ABikeRace
Posts: 16
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2021 9:45 am

Re: A Bike Race (around Wales)

Post by ABikeRace »

pistonbroke wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 9:35 am Having just returned from a 1,000km round trip to the Rioja region which was a complete waste of time due the the event (L'Eroica Hispania) being cancelled with 2 hours to go before registration opened, my thoughts when driving back turned to this event. L'Eroica events attract riders from all over the world and this edition had limited entries to 650. The cancellation was ordered by the ministry of traffic due to the regional cycle federation having failed to adhere to the 30 day notice of it's taking place and pay a €20 admin fee!
When this came onto the Bearbones radar in August, several of us made cautionary comments about promoting it as a race with the arcane laws preventing racing on bridleways and it possibly falling foul of other Road Traffic Act laws, rendering insurance (is there any yet?) invalid. The organiser contributed to the thread, promising to take on board the "Race" aspect of the event but in the 2 months since the last post, nothing seems to have been modified on the website, it refers to being a race every other line of the text, you don't have to look far to find reference to a £1,500 prize fund. Seems that the entries are being invited without much interest in dotting the i's.
Yeah we're taking all the feedback on board from this forum / other forums and from others who message us direct about the event, we are currently talking to two insurance companies who are looking to offer us insurance for the event. We have looked at other events similar to this and how they carefully word their rules and T&C's. One that we found where they stress the importance of riders having their own insurance is the Pan Celtic Race - https://www.pancelticrace.com/race-rules/ Looks like an amazing event too, one I looked at entering myself this year but didn't have the time and was training to attempt the GB Divide / GB Duro route at the time for charity too (i failed that btw having got to North Wales, injury had the better of me, better luck for the 2023 attempt :lol: )

The reason we want to offer prize money is to give a bit back to the riders who enter and who do well as well as adding an incentive to enter too. We aren't due to make any profit on the event (not the reason we created the event), we are putting our own money in to it to get the event started and any profits from the 2022 edition will then allow us to run another in 2023 and beyond if people enjoy the first edition and want more. Hope they do of course.

Our next idea is another checkpoint 'race' / ride where each checkpoint will be at certain climbs going through Wales... but one event at a time eh.

Thanks again for your feedback, it is much appreciated you giving your time to offer open and honest feedback. All the best
redefined_cycles
Posts: 9282
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2016 8:19 am
Location: Dewsbury, West Yorkshire

Re: A Bike Race (around Wales)

Post by redefined_cycles »

@abikerace you sound like a good bunch... Hope it goes well and you manage to pull it off ethically and safely...
User avatar
ABikeRace
Posts: 16
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2021 9:45 am

Re: A Bike Race (around Wales)

Post by ABikeRace »

Hey all. We had a great event, thank you all for your feedback pre event. Planning 2023 already. Can not wait.
Post Reply