The backlash continues?

[Bearbonesnorm]

Never before have I seen the NP state outright that wildcamping is illegal* and that people should use campsites.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wale ... TA2B6qxJbY

*excluding use with LO permission etc. Something we know is virtually impossible to get without much prior planning.

[ScotRoutes]

Oof! I tried to read that but my phone kept scrolling uncontrollably and freezing.

[RIP]

What a blithering idiot. On the summit of Snowdon itself.

As we've said, no doubt we'll continue in our quiet way kipping in old slate mines, in ditches etc and nobody will know or care.

But the spotlight is indeed unwelcome.

[Mariner]

The story appears to based around someone wild camping then sharing the 'wonderful sunrise' on social media.
I couldn't read the whole article because of pop ups and the feeling of indifference once I realised that it was basically a rule 1 infringement.
Moral of the story if you are wild camping don't tell the world a. that you are and b. where you are.

[ScotRoutes]

It's always a shame when someone camps and ruins a pristine and unspoilt wilderness. Like the summit of Snowdon...

[Bearbonesnorm]

It's always a shame when someone camps and ruins a pristine and unspoilt wilderness. Like the summit of Snowdon...

As we've said, no doubt we'll continue in our quiet way kipping in old slate mines, in ditches etc and nobody will know or care.

I'm sure we will but it might become a little harder.

Moral of the story if you are wild camping don't tell the world a. that you are and b. where you are.

I wrote this a while ago. Some people didn't like it but a surprising number (I was surprised) seemed to agree.
https://www.bearbonesbikepacking.co.uk/ ... -you-love/

[ton]

Like the summit of Snowdon...

Leeds bus station is more pristine and unspoilt than the summit of snowdon...........

[RIP]

Er, have you bivvied there then Ton?

[ton]

Er, have you bivvied there then Ton?

err kind of. well i have been known to fall asleep while waiting for the bus on a saturday evening............ hic !!

[RIP]

[psling]

It is so high profile these days; Snowdonia NP (and other NPs) have had a nightmare over the last year or so managing the sheer numbers of tourists to a tourist hotspot and everyone has been told to get out into the countryside for their well-being. Add to that the insta-profile neediness where every trip is a micro-wankventure plus the disposable lifestyle of so many people and we have the perfect storm

Of course, there is also the sense of self-entitlement so prevalent in today's society. We know it is illegal to wild camp but we carry on regardless knowing that if we keep a low profile, arrive late, leave early and leave no trace then it's kinda OK. And mostly it is although it's a bit hypocritical to then point at others and say 'oooh, look at them, they're breaking the law'.
I have the same anxieties that I'm sure a lot of us have that with the current high profile of hordes of irresponsible, uneducated in the ways of LNT, and seemingly uncaring people spreading into the wilds like an invasion of ants is going to affect our hobbies in the future. Hopefully the current clamour will ease and we can quietly continue our ways. There's a certain irony that the medium of social media both causes and attracts (to an extent) the problem and also highlights the problems subsequently caused.

[fatbikephil]

The thing is... is 'wild camping' actually defined? When does stopping for a rest (and a snooze) become 'camping?' Doubtless there will be lots of opinions but I'd say its a very grey area and so it all boils down to it being defined in law through actual cases being brought. I bet all the of the bawbags who do get lifted by the Polis will be done for Anti-social behaviour, criminal damage etc, not 'camping without the owners permission' which is probably civil in any case so reliant on landowners bringing cases up. Landowners will be reluctant to do this to avoid making wild camping legally defined as this will lead to people avoiding prosecution by acting outside the legal definition.

The article is rubbish - some guy has a snooze on the top of Snowdon and takes a photo of the sunrise. Then the NP is bleating about it being illegal. Err, on what basis??

If you do get 'caught' then just say "I'm not camping I'm resting for a while overnight." So the NP ranger says "No your wild camping" To which you reply "prove it"

[Bearbonesnorm]

The thing is... is 'wild camping' actually defined? When does stopping for a rest (and a snooze) become 'camping?' Doubtless there will be lots of opinions but I'd say its a very grey area and so it all boils down to it being defined in law through actual cases being brought. I bet all the of the bawbags who do get lifted by the Polis will be done for Anti-social behaviour, criminal damage etc, not 'camping without the owners permission' which is probably civil in any case so reliant on landowners bringing cases up. Landowners will be reluctant to do this to avoid making wild camping legally defined as this will lead to people avoiding prosecution by acting outside the legal definition.

The article is rubbish - some guy has a snooze on the top of Snowdon and takes a photo of the sunrise. Then the NP is bleating about it being illegal. Err, on what basis??

If you do get 'caught' then just say "I'm not camping I'm resting for a while overnight." So the NP ranger says "No your wild camping" To which you reply "prove it"

Good point Phil. It's something I wrote about a few years ago (I'm like a bad prophet) and I tend to believe that the erecting of what people would view as a 'tent' can be a potential trigger because it seems to instill a sense of semi-permanence ... rightly or wrongly. Here's the general gist.



Aside from Dartmoor, wild camping in England and Wales is illegal, it’s against the law, it’s naughty. If you can be bothered to look up the word ‘camp’ or ‘camping’ in the dictionary, it’s almost certain there’ll be mention of tents or temporary structures … so what if there are no ‘structures’?

Imagine you’re strolling across the beach of some south coast seaside town. It’s a pleasantly warm afternoon, the sun is out and all is well with the world. You spot an old dear, relaxing in a deck chair … no, hang on, forget the deck chair, it could be viewed as a structure, we’ll start again. This time you spy a middle aged chap lay down on the sand, his hands behind his head, hat pulled down over his eyes and he’s emitting a walrus like noise that lets you know he’s sound asleep. I think it would be pretty obvious to all that he’s not camping, he’s simply fallen asleep while relaxing on the beach.

Would peoples opinion change if our snoozing day tripper pulled a picnic blanket over himself? I don’t think it would, I imagine most people would just think he was a little chilly. How about if he had something on the floor to lie on? No, I think the majority of other beach goers wouldn’t think that was anything unusual. The only thing I can think of that would alter peoples perception of the situation would be the time of day … once the shadows lengthen, the beach starts to empty as people head for home or wonder off in search of food. So, what would people think if you swam against the tide and arrived as they were leaving?

Your behaviour would be no different to that of anyone else on the beach that day. You’re simply planning to lie down and go to sleep, the only difference is that when you do it, it’ll be dark. I hate to be the one to break this to the general populace but the night time world is the same as the daytime one, it’s just that you can’t see so well. Nothing else happens, things don’t alter … it just goes dark.

It seems odd that because you’ve chosen moon-bathing to sun-bathing, many people will deem what you’re doing as wrong when in reality, it’s exactly the same as they’ve spent the day doing.

If we finish our ice cream, remove ourselves from the beach and head for the hills, then the issue of land ownership may become an issue … or does it? You’re riding along and you spot a nice flat spot in the corner of a field, it’s perfect over-night accommodation and too tempting to pass up, so you blow your mat up, roll out your bivvy bag and settle down for the night. The reality is that, in 99% of cases no one will ever know you’ve been there and life will carry on as though you never were. However, the land you slept on belongs to someone and that someone didn’t give you permission to be on their land … you are trespassing, you’re a bad person.

How would things be if you didn’t spend the night in the corner of the field? What if you found a nice dry, flat bit on the bridleway? After all, you have a legal entitlement to be there, the countryside doesn’t close at 6pm and there are no time restraints … it’s a bridleway, not a pay and display car park. You haven’t erected any type of structure, you’ve simply laid down to rest and if you happen to fall asleep, then you must have been really, really tired.

[psling]

The thing is... is 'wild camping' actually defined? When does stopping for a rest (and a snooze) become 'camping?' Doubtless there will be lots of opinions but I'd say its a very grey area and so it all boils down to it being defined in law through actual cases being brought. I bet all the of the bawbags who do get lifted by the Polis will be done for Anti-social behaviour, criminal damage etc, not 'camping without the owners permission' which is probably civil in any case so reliant on landowners bringing cases up. Landowners will be reluctant to do this to avoid making wild camping legally defined as this will lead to people avoiding prosecution by acting outside the legal definition.

The article is rubbish - some guy has a snooze on the top of Snowdon and takes a photo of the sunrise. Then the NP is bleating about it being illegal. Err, on what basis??

If you do get 'caught' then just say "I'm not camping I'm resting for a while overnight." So the NP ranger says "No your wild camping" To which you reply "prove it"

IANAL
It would currently be trespass to camp on private land so therefore CURRENTLY a civil offence rather than a criminal offence so the likelihood is that you would be asked to move on and leave by the most direct route. If you resisted then the situation could develop to involve the police. You are allowed to rest on a PROW but not set up accommodation so a bivvy bag could be argued to be 'resting' but a tarp or tent 'setting up accommodation'.
It all changes in National Parks though where certain activities can be prohibited by Bylaws which may be more enforcible.
As I mentioned before, we all have a sense of entitlement when we think we know better that the law but that probably just makes us dicks

p.s. And, of course, I'm talking England and Wales before you guys north of the border remind us

[ScotRoutes]

We had the picnicking/bivvying convo last year when the rules around here changed to allow you to stop during your daily exercise, to sit down and relax. I simply chose to stop during the night rather than the day but that seemed to upset a few folk, as if Covid was more dangerous after dark. Draculovid?

And, of course, I'm talking England and Wales before you guys north of the border remind us

No congratulations on my restraint?

[psling]

We had the picnicking/bivvying convo last year when the rules around here changed to allow you to stop during your daily exercise, to sit down and relax. I simply chose to stop during the night rather than the day but that seemed to upset a few folk, as if Covid was more dangerous after dark. Draculovid?

And, of course, I'm talking England and Wales before you guys north of the border remind us

No congratulations on my restraint?

You have done remarkably well (mind you, you're probably sick of reminding us by now )

[Bearbonesnorm]

Here's a thought - what if the bloke who posted his summit pictures had decided to embark on a walk up setting off at 2am in order to reach the summit in time for dawn? I'm thinking that no one would bat an eyelid, inc the NP authority.

I think the whole thing simply comes down to trying to control the masses (maybe even educate to some degree) and as Peter said, trying to prevent the perfect storm from sinking the ship.

PS; Yes, well done Colin.

[Lazarus]

that seemed to upset a few folk, as if Covid was more dangerous after dark

Perhaps they were upset because you were taking the piss out of the rules and not really following them?

As for the Snowden thing Mleh its hardly untarnished but all groups like to find fault in other groups where as we never break the rules here hence why BAM was so dormant when it was not allowed and we would never ever attempt to justify us ignoring the rules[ so no one will reply except to agree ]

This post is meant to be taken as sarcasm but wth a dollop of truth in it.

[summittoppler]

The way I see it is the NP are trying to do their bit to put off folk from trying wild camping. Snowdonia has had a mahoosive influx of visitors in the last couple of years and this is probably a tactic of theirs to say its a no no to wild camp. It was only a few months back they said they did not mind it as long as people were sensible. When I reported the fly campers the other month on Snowdon to the park wardens they did not bat an eyelid when I said I had also been wild camping. The NP probably don't want dozens of people up there through the night as it poses a risk and the fallout is MR.
I'll carry on doing my thing, taking photos and videos of where I camp and will not be put off by this lame bit of reporting.

[Bearbonesnorm]

As for the Snowden thing Mleh its hardly untarnished but all groups like to find fault in other groups where as we never break the rules here hence why BAM was so dormant when it was not allowed and we would never ever attempt to justify us ignoring the rules[ so no one will reply except to agree ]

Yep, we're all law breakers (unless we choose to only spend our nights in a bothy of course) ... I don't think this 'story' is really about the legal issues regarding wildcamping but an attempt to curb enthusiasm for it by highlighting those issues. The act of wildcamping isn't really a problem, the problem is how those partaking decide to conduct themselves. I believe and hope that 99% of folk here arrive late, leave early, take all their crap out with them and generally try to fly below the radar as much as they can. Potential problems arise when people are unable - actually, that's bollox, I should say unwilling, to do that.

[slarge]

To be honest I do get worried by the backlash, but probably more worried about social media. As Stu predicted all those years ago, if you tell everyone what a great time you're having and where you are - guess what: everyone wants a slice.

And we're all a bit guilty - we post lots of pics of our bivvies and bikes equipped for a bivvy. Just maybe not the location. And in our defence we don't often describe much type 1 fun......

Maybe the real answer is to come off social media and stop reading the news.

In a few years I suspect we'll be back to somewhere close to where we were 2 years ago. But there will be collateral damage along the way with bannings and bylaws and the odd example being made. Let's hope the blind eye continues for the ditch sleepers though (although a farmer I met when in mid Wales a few months ago who "caught" us bivvied in his field was only too happy for us to be there. His main concern was rubbish - but I think we could tell that we were travelling light and didn't have deckchairs, beer and music).

[Shewie]

I removed trip reports and the places and planning stuff from public view on trek-lite after it all kicked off last year, not sure if that would work here?
It’s not paywalled, you just need to be a registered member to see the content

[redefined_cycles]

Very well done Colin

[ScotRoutes]

[Bearbonesnorm]

I removed trip reports and the places and planning stuff from public view on trek-lite after it all kicked off last year, not sure if that would work here?
It’s not paywalled, you just need to be a registered member to see the content

I'm not sure that trip reports or photographs in general are really the problem. I tend to think it's more those instances where reports are highly detailed and provide exact locations, maps, names etc. A post that contains a picture with the caption, 'on the Shropshire hills last night' seems much less of a problem than 'last nights pitch on Wart Hill. I parked in the NT carpark and rode up the track until I reached a flat spot amongst the trees at SO766507'