New Alpkit Bikepacking Bags

[whitestone]

The Taiwanese copy (whether the Alpkit Fu Man Chu or the PX Geoff bar) isn't absolutely identical to the Jones bar. The bends on the front loop are slightly different, it's a bit squarer for want of a better term, only really obvious when you see the two together. I think it's also plain gauge as the Jones double butted aluminium bar is 525g and the copy is 590g, the Jones SG bar is 625g.

Some copies are definitely "cheap" but others are very close in quality to that of the original - I read a review of the Trailstar copy and the reviewer (who also had a genuine Trailstar) reckoned it was very close and with no branding on either you'd be hard pushed to differentiate.

I read a piece on an American backpacking blog that made the case that cottage or small scale manufacturers were basically stuffed in regards to the copyright of their designs. They basically had the choice of getting it made in China at which point the design is out of your hands and another production line can be started next to "yours" or they see the product buy one and set up the production line.

Most products have a retail "lead time" before the imitators (copycats/rip-offs - take your pick) catch up. The trick is to try and maximise that and build a customer following in that time.

[Lazarus]

I am not sure its always a lost customer either - probably is for the tents though.
For example i own some Confucius bars -there is no way i am spending what Jones charges for bars - its just not going to happen so he /they did not lose a customer.

[Bearbonesnorm]

For example i own some Confucius bars -there is no way i am spending what Jones charges for bars - its just not going to happen so he /they did not lose a customer.

No but the perception of the company can change from one of thinking the company sell high quality products at a price that reflects that, to one of a company who charges way over the odds for a product which is none too different from something else. I realise that's quite obvious but that shift can have a longterm effect on future sales.

[stevenshand]

I think a trap that a lot of us fall into is assuming that the consumer is educated and knows the difference between a cheaper copy of something and the original that perhaps is made of better quality materials and/or has better backup. I think the Alpkit loop style or H-style bars are a good example of this. I'd wager that a lot of customers buying these bars are not aware of Jones and where those bars originated.

I'm not sure I totally agree with James's stance that there's a potential opening for a lower price version of a product if the original/higher price vendor hasn't offered that as an option. For a small business, they may have taken the view that they'd rather reach a smaller audience with a higher priced/higher margin product than chase volume. There could be many reasons for this, a desire to keep the business smaller (lower volume will help this), a desire to make the product 'appear' to be more niche/desirable/exclusive, a desire to keep manufacturing local even if a similar quality can be achieved by going overseas, a desire to achieve a margin that enables much better customer service, a desire to achieve a margin that allows profit to be sunk back into the brand to develop more products..... I think all of these are valid reasons for a business to price a product as they see fit. I don't think it's fair game for a brand to come along and undercut those values with product that has clearly benefitted from initial development by someone else if the only differentiator is price. I know that's not what you said James but your comment got me thinking!

[Bearbonesnorm]

I'd wager that a lot of customers buying these bars are not aware of Jones and where those bars originated

I think this is true knowing how many people now believe the loop to be a glorified hanging bracket, with the idea of multiple hand positions not having entered their heads

[Lazarus]

fair points stu /steve and the average non cycing obsessed punter is probably unaware that the Jones bar is the original and it will look overpriced rather than high quality

[stevenshand]

I'd wager that a lot of customers buying these bars are not aware of Jones and where those bars originated

I think this is true knowing how many people now believe the loop to be a glorified hanging bracket, with the idea of multiple hand positions not having entered their heads

At Shand, we used to spec a Jones bar on one of our models. It was listed as a 'Jones Loop Bar' or words to that effect. It was amazing the amount of people that would ask to swap that bar out to an AK Jeff or Fu Manchu saying they'd be happy to pay any upgrade cost

[thenorthwind]

I'd wager that a lot of customers buying these bars are not aware of Jones and where those bars originated

I think this is true knowing how many people now believe the loop to be a glorified hanging bracket, with the idea of multiple hand positions not having entered their heads

I know that's it's original purpose but I didn't find it particularly useful for that, possibly because the frame I had it on is quite different from the frame it's designed to be used with. But I found the loop really useful for strapping a bag to sans harness, which is the main reason I sold it and bought the Alpkit Confucius (basically a riser bar with a loop).

I'm all for protecting the rights of designers who are genuinely innovating from being ripped off by having their designs immediately copying verbatim at much lower cost and quality... but I think you have to accept that if something's a genuinely good idea with wider appeal, you have a limited amount of time to either a) find a way of getting that product to that market at a price it's will to pay (ethics of manufacturing notwithstanding, which is a whole other can of worms), or b) let someone else get on with it. If it's really that useful, you can't expect to be able to sit on that idea forever, but be unwilling to fully commercialise it yourself.

[Lazarus]

the amount of people that would ask to swap that bar out to an AK Jeff or Fu Manchu saying they'd be happy to pay any upgrade cost

SHould have charged them and considered it an idiot tax

[Bearbonesnorm]

If it's really that useful, you can't expect to be able to sit on that idea forever, but be unwilling to fully commercialise it yourself.

You're right Dave but I think when someone is in the business of designing and selling something, having someone else come along and steal (because that's really what it is) the idea and then knock out copies while heavily undercutting the original is wrong.

BTW, when Volvo designed the 3 point seat belt in the 50's they didn't patent the idea but instead made the design freely available to all car manufacturers.

[fatbikephil]

a desire to make the product 'appear' to be more niche/desirable/exclusive,

Only certain people are allowed into the Jones club

[Bearlegged]

[thenorthwind]

If it's really that useful, you can't expect to be able to sit on that idea forever, but be unwilling to fully commercialise it yourself.

You're right Dave but I think when someone is in the business of designing and selling something, having someone else come along and steal (because that's really what it is) the idea and then knock out copies while heavily undercutting the original is wrong.

Absolutely. It's not 100% clear where you draw that line though. I'm sure we could both point to examples where we think someone's been ripped off, and where we think it's just the natural progression of things, and there wouldn't necessarily be anything definitive to tell them apart.

BTW, when Volvo designed the 3 point seat belt in the 50's they didn't patent the idea but instead made the design freely available to all car manufacturers.

See also waiving of IP rights on Covid vaccines. I don't think we could argue that bikepacking bags and bicycle handlebars are quite so important though

[Karl]

Slightly different view from a design perspective (so for anyone who's ever had their designs copied this is for you).

I use to design and sell motorsport setup products. One design got copied by a very large motorsport company. Initially I was a wee bit miffed! Pondered sending letters, speaking to them direct but knowing how small I was and how big they were it was going to be a waste of time and money. When I did sit back what did put a smile on my face was the fact the design they copied I was already changing as it needed improvement and it was below par for what I was aiming for. Stupidly If customers looked around before buying from said motorsport company they'd also see that the original from me was a fair bit cheaper

The lesson I learned is that if an idea is good it will be copied. Keep in mind that someone copying your idea is the greatest form of flattery - especially when you feel it isn't quite right. And most importantly it shows that you're ahead of the curve so keep doing what you're doing...but faster

[jameso]

I think a trap that a lot of us fall into is assuming that the consumer is educated and knows the difference between a cheaper copy of something and the original that perhaps is made of better quality materials and/or has better backup. I think the Alpkit loop style or H-style bars are a good example of this. I'd wager that a lot of customers buying these bars are not aware of Jones and where those bars originated.

True..

I'm not sure I totally agree with James's stance that there's a potential opening for a lower price version of a product if the original/higher price vendor hasn't offered that as an option. ....
I know that's not what you said James but your comment got me thinking!

I don't agree with myself either :) I do wonder if Jeff left the door open on the bars though, if they're pricier than they could be. I wonder if he could do ok on those bars at a lower cost if they were distributed differently. Narrow the gap and there's less interest in the copies.
But back to your first point, all these ideas need people to be reminded of how/why. Marketing counts, ideas give you something to market?