Clothes layering advice: what under softshell or what on top of merino?

[nagasaki45]

Hi all, here's yet another newbie question.

Until recently I've only wear some cheap-ish 100% polyester short and long sleeve shirts for riding. A warmer layer (anything from buttoned cotton shirt to a down jacket) was added on top if needed. I do sweat a lot and these synthetics eventually wet out. The worse bit is that when wet they chafe my nipples. Is it only me?

To get a bit more comfortable while riding I've got these in the past two months:
- Long sleeve merino base layer (decathlon)
- Fleece mid layer (alpkit griffon)
- Softshell (rab borealis)

My experience with these is based on five rides of 2-4 days each in the South East. The weather was usually 10-20c and anything between grey and light rain to sunny, with quite windy days as well.

The merino base layer + the fleece feel really nice, until there's wind or a long descent. This is why I've followed the advice on this recent thread and got the softshell. The merino + the softshell feel really nice again and stop the wind well enough for my needs, until there's a climb, or the sun goes out. Then I sweat faster than the the merino wicks and get completely wet. I think the fleece helps the merino in wicking, but the softshell doesn't. Generally it feels that the merino and the softshell don't play very well together moisture wise, or maybe they are just too warm together for anything above 10c.

Willing to get away with minimal cost and maximum versatility, what will be your advice?
- Getting a lighter base layer. Then, it's either some mesh-like cycling specific thing like discussed in the recent lightweight base layers thread, or a more general hiking long sleeve. I usually gravitate away from cycling specific clothing, as I hope to wear this for other activities (climbing / hiking) as well. Also, a hiking long sleeve can be wear with nothing on top, all year long, and does not look ridiculous. On the other hand I worry that it will be too similar to the synthetics I already have, meaning not wicking well enough and chafing.
- Stay with the merino, add the fleece if it's cold, and get a windproof vest. Maybe a vest with mesh back so wind protection only where needed. The borealis will be very sad.
- Other suggestions?

Cheers,
Tom

[Cheeky Monkey]

IME merino is rubbish at dealing with sweat - it doesn't stink sure, but it stays wet and does not shift moisture like a good synthetic or (personally) bamboo top.

Merino can be very comfy and warm so makes an ideal base layer for sleeping or camp but then you have to balance the amount of gear / spare clothes etc you are carrying.

[benp1]

Lose the merino top for any sweaty riding

Pound for pound, a cycling windproof (gilet or jacket) is one of the best value and lightest items you can get. It's absolutely worth the weight and cost, they're so versatile

[sean_iow]

I've never found a clothing combination that's right for both long descents and climbs. You're going to have to be either to cold on the downs or too hot on the ups, or, adjust your clothing to suit.

I wear a short sleeve base layer, long sleeve full zip jersey and windproof most of the time. All zipped up for the downs, unzip the windproof most of the way on the ups and unzip the jersey as well if necessary. If it's warm then I'll take off the windproof and just accept being a bit colder on easy bits.

[Richpips]

Aldi do a poyester mesh base layer which is close fitting and dries quickly for under £10

Then layer up or down depending on the weather. Currently on top of the baselayer I'll have a LS sportwool top, and then either a windproof or insulated windproof on top of that.

[nagasaki45]

So dropping the merino is the consensus. Excellent!

Will have a look around tomorrow in some shops. Still not sure if I should go for sleeveless cycling mesh thing and have the fleece as a backup if I need some insulation, or aim for a long sleeve shirt. Anyway, synthetic it is (hoping it won't chafe). Need to sort this out for the WRT

EDIT: The softshell will go on top anyway.

Thanks for the help,
Tom

[Cheeky Monkey]

A gilet can be a good addition (as Ben mentions). It will double windblocking with another jacket on the descents, adds insulation by simply being another layer trapping air (doesn't have to be fleece or a down jacket), can be a good solution in middling temps.

They are also (usually) small, compact and light so fit easily into the on / off type approach Sean etc has mentioned.

[nagasaki45]

Pound for pound, a cycling windproof (gilet or jacket) is one of the best value and lightest items you can get. It's absolutely worth the weight and cost, they're so versatile

Will keep that in mind, but prefer to do one purchase at a time, especially after investing in some clothing recently already.

I've never found a clothing combination that's right for both long descents and climbs. You're going to have to be either to cold on the downs or too hot on the ups, or, adjust your clothing to suit.

I wear a short sleeve base layer, long sleeve full zip jersey and windproof most of the time. All zipped up for the downs, unzip the windproof most of the way on the ups and unzip the jersey as well if necessary. If it's warm then I'll take off the windproof and just accept being a bit colder on easy bits.

Yeah, I'm doing this zip dance as well

[whitestone]

No wonder you are sweating if you are wearing that lot in 10-20C conditions.

I've the Alpkit Griffon. I don't think I'd use it for cycling unless it was really cold, even then I wouldn't want to be sweating into it for any extended period of time.

Also consider arm warmers (PlanetX do some merino ones for a couple of quid), roll them down for climbs and back up for descents.

The typical adult human produces about 100W of heat at rest. Even a moderate climb requires 200-300W effort and since the body is only 20-25% efficient that means you are actually producing 800-1200W. A single clothing setup is not going to deal with that difference without zipping up/unzipping, adding or removing items.

[Cheeky Monkey]

... without zipping up/unzipping, adding or removing items ....

Stop it Bob, I'm getting all flustered

[thenorthwind]

Merino doesn't seem to work for everyone, but it's still my base layer of choice most of the time, and particularly when I'm out for longer and there might be a big variation in temperature/conditions/activity. As said, no one combination of clothing is going to work for all extremes. I'm not surprised you find a merino base layer and fleece cold on long descents at the moment - I'd probably want something windproof on top - or that the merino/fleece was too warm climbing. Depending on temperature and length of climb/descent, you might get away with a base layer and a windproof, unzipped for the climbs (a half-zip on the base layer can make a big difference too), for example. Arm warmers are another good shout.

Sorry, I know we almost had a consensus there - I'm just saying it might not be what you have that's the problem, but how you use it.

[nagasaki45]

Thanks for all the comments!

Wanted to clarify a few things:
- I don't ride with all three items together (except for one chilly evening when having all of them was quite nice).
- I don't find the merino + fleece too warm or sweaty. The problem with this combo is the wind.
- With the merino + softshell I unzip the softshell and often pull up the sleeves when climbing or when it gets warmer. Pulling the sleeves up with the rab borealis is really easy, I must say, so that's a plus. Anyway, it's still not enough to keep the merino dry on long climbs. Taking the softshell off to dry the base layer in this situation feels like a bad idea, as I'm usually already wet, and can get cold very quickly.
- Some of you suggested arm warmers. I actually find my arms quite insensitive to the weather. I don't mind them being colder or warmer. It's the chest that I try to keep warm, dry, and out of the wind.

There's a good chance that all 3 items were a mistake, but again, I'm not going to replace all at once. From the suggestions here it seems that the best idea is to get a lightweight and well wicking base layer first, to go with the softshell. Plan to go looking for something like that tomorrow. Does this make sense?

[Dean]

I aim to be comfortable on the bike ~75% of the time. I can deal with being chilled by the wind through the fleece or being too warm for a short period of time (knowing there is a climb/downhill coming soon) but if I aimed for 100% comfort I would be stopped every 10 minutes changing layers and my rides would take twice as long.

I and others have mentioned polypropylene string vests below baselayers in other threads, they absorb sweat and dry quicker than baselayers in contact with sweaty skin (but do look awful)

[whitestone]

- Some of you suggested arm warmers. I actually find my arms quite insensitive to the weather. I don't mind them being colder or warmer. It's the chest that I try to keep warm, dry, and out of the wind.

You aren't using the arm warmers to keep your arms warm but as a means of thermoregulation. Starts getting warm or on a climb and you pull them down, then pull them up to reduce heat loss on the descents or if it gets windy. No need to stop as they can be moved with the other hand, just takes seconds.

[fatbikerbill]

I'm no merino fan either. They make good pj's but that's it.

My favourite base layer is a now aging cannondale polartec 100 fleece. Got 2 and they must be 25 years old at least and getting thinner by the minute. But I've never found a base to match them.

Wish I'd bought 20, not 2.

I can wear it on it's own, with a t over the top or a wind jilet. Covers almost all conditions bar true cold or wet.

[Bearbonesnorm]

Personally, I like Meriono but (a)it certainly doesn't work for everyone (b)my body is very good at regulating temp without overly sweating and (c)not all merino is the same and different fabric weights are better suited to different conditions. I'm also a fan / convert to bamboo. I find it comfier, often lighter, easier to care for and it does dry much quicker than wool.

Regardless of material, for me the key is ventilation. Can I pull my sleeves up, unzip the front, vent through the outer layer pockets etc. As Ben mentions, a gilet can be a wonderful thing.

The only top I've ever had remove flesh from my nipples was fully synthetic but I think that was because it was a loose fit was was able to move / slide about ... I had to resort to gaffa taping over my nipples in the end

[ScotRoutes]

Your wrists are really good at dumping body heat. A top with long sleeves that can be rolled up can be very flexible. Unfortunately most cycle-specific tops are too close fitting for this.

[Lazarus]

summer /warm weather arm and knee warmers and gillets make a lot of sense

the temperature at the bottom of a mountain and the temp at the top are very different as is the temp of you cycling up the mountan v cycling down it
How you regulate this is essentially trial and error and what works for you but there is a lot of advice on here - not all will work for you.

[whitestone]

There's at least three variables at play:

1. Current weather conditions
2. What you are wearing
3. Your current level of exertion

Being comfortable on a ride means constant adjustment of the two you have control over. So if you are riding along on the flat you should be wearing enough to be warm but not sweating (at some point it will be warm enough or humid enough that you can't avoid sweating no matter what). You see a hill coming up so unzip your top a bit to prepare for the effort. Once on the hill, you slow down a bit in terms of effort to avoid overloading your clothes' ability to shift sweat then just before the top you zip your top back up to avoid chilling once the effort levels drop.

There's the same issue in winter mountaineering: you are stood around essentially doing no physical work whilst belaying your partner then when climbing you are creating a lot of effort. The two states are at opposite ends of the scale so there's a lot of adjustment necessary: as soon as you get to a belay you zip everything up and add more clothing to retain the warmth from climbing. This all gets removed just before it's your next turn. The idea is not to overheat and therefore sweat but equally you don't want to be hypothermic.

Take a look at the kit designed for extreme cold activities and you'll see a lot of features that at first don't make sense, vents in items meant to keep wind out and so on, but they are all about constant adjustment of your body temperature.

[MM-on-POINT]

Over the last two years I have gone from being able to wear a T-shirt most of the year to freezing cold or sweaty hot with extra layers.

I started trying Marino and found it great for warmth but not so great at wicking, I then experimented with adding a synthetic T-shirt over a L/S 100weight Marino top and found it worked better for wicking, I then switched the T to a running vest for better pits ventilation and found a happy medium.
I need a softshell jacket or gilet for decents and general riding over the above combo and will take the jacket off and twist-roll it up to tie it around my waist for climbs or over heating.

On one trip recently I took my hi-vis off and folded it to stuff under my top on the decent, this method has work with maps and news papers for cyclists for ages.
Hope some of this helps.

[BordersSteve]

Agree with others merino is a hopeless baselayer for me. I go with a mesh tshirt baselayer (needs to be skin tight) most of the year round, bar peak summer. On top of that goes a short or long sleeve jersey depending on the weather, Torm are worth a look here, in particular their windproofs to solve the specific issue you're facing: https://www.torm.cc/store/-c42134272

If the weather is variable or I know there will be hanging about, I pack a windproof gilet in my framebag. I use a Pactimo one but any brand will do. If I've gone for short sleeve jersey I'll also pack some arm warmers.

I would start with a decent (cheap, DHB or something) mesh base layer and go from there. Personally the fit of hiking gear drives me mad on the bike but if it works for you that's what matters.

[nagasaki45]

Thanks for all the great advice!

Went yesterday for a 30km loop. Had one of the cheap synthetics on, and the softshell on top. I think it worked better than the merino. After dark it got a bit chilly so added the fleece for the downhill back home. Overall they all worked quite well together.

You aren't using the arm warmers to keep your arms warm but as a means of thermoregulation.

That makes much more sense. Thanks! It's also really easy to do with my softshell, so for now (until it's too warm for the softshell), I think I'm sorted on that front. Will have to keep it in mind though while riding and not wait for the end of the climb to unzip and pull the sleeves up.

I would start with a decent (cheap, DHB or something) mesh base layer and go from there.

I and others have mentioned polypropylene string vests below baselayers in other threads, they absorb sweat and dry quicker than baselayers in contact with sweaty skin (but do look awful)

Yeah, that's the plan. Although I'm skipping getting something for the WRT and will think it through (and try to be more mindful about how I use my current gear) before buying anything.

The only top I've ever had remove flesh from my nipples was fully synthetic but I think that was because it was a loose fit was was able to move / slide about ... I had to resort to gaffa taping over my nipples in the end

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Hopefully it won't get too bad this weekend.