3LW - problems?

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Bearbonesnorm
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3LW - problems?

Post by Bearbonesnorm »

I've never used 3 Little Words because I don't really see what's wrong with using a grid reference. However, I know it's quite popular with some folk but I was a bit surprised when I read this issued by Keswick MR.

A couple came across a lone walker who slipped and suffered a suspected ankle fracture. They managed to contact the police, asked for mountain rescue, and provided a What3Words location. They then stayed with the casualty until the rescue team arrived. For some unknown reason the W3W reference positioned the casualty close to the A66 near Braithwaite. Fortunately PhoneFind technology was used and a grid reference confirmed the location as on a path between Green Gable and Base Brown – many miles from the A66!
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Re: 3LW - problems?

Post by RIP »

Wonder what the two W3W refs actually were?
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jameso
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Re: 3LW - problems?

Post by jameso »

Saw something similar reported online yesterday, but a different area - one side of the small valley area had (I think) 'streets' and the other side had a location using 'street', the other 2 words were the same for each spot. Was misheard by the operator yet as the result was the right area it wasn't picked up until later on after time was wasted. If a valid report it seemed odd that the W3W app doesn't have a distance limit on shared or similar words.
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Re: 3LW - problems?

Post by sean_iow »

I don't use it out of principle, it's free now, once everyone has adopted it and it's too much hassle to change back they'll start charging. GRs are free as is long and lat.

Google maps were free to start with, our council changed their website to Google to save paying the OS for maps. Now Google charge and they can't afford to pay as there is no longer a budget for maps on the website so lots of the website doesn't work.
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Re: 3LW - problems?

Post by RIP »

jameso wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 1:37 pm one side of the small valley area had (I think) 'streets' and the other side had a location using 'street'........ odd that the W3W app doesn't have a distance limit on shared or similar words.
Rather renders the whole idea fairly useless then. Even allowing plurals is asking for trouble.

Still, it still has highly inestimable entertainment value - whenever I see a rude-ish or silly combo it gives me a free laugh, so it's worth it just for that.

Nah, Stu's right GRs have stood the test of time.
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Re: 3LW - problems?

Post by Lazarus »

the W3W app doesn't have a distance limit on shared or similar word
The what3words algorithm distributes similar-sounding three-word combinations around the world to enable both human and automated error-checking. The result is that if a three-word combination is entered slightly incorrectly and the result is still a valid what3words reference, the location will usually be so far away from the user's intended area that the error will be immediately obvious to both a user and an intelligent error-checking system.

more details needed from the above examples to explain what went wrong / be sure the reports are accurate

Gr are better but more folk can use the w3w app than can give a GR
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Re: 3LW - problems?

Post by voodoo_simon »

Watt/what
There/their
Where/were
No/know
Allowed/aloud
Are/eight
Made/maid
Role/roll

I’m guessing all of these words aren’t used in W3W?

Really can’t see the problem of using a grid ref in the UK,

Call mountain rescue, put on speaker
Tap menu on phone to go to main screen
Click on grid ref app* and when the callers asks where you are, give them the 8 digit number :-bd

*obviously this needs to be downloaded
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Re: 3LW - problems?

Post by Bearbonesnorm »

Out of interest and this is a genuine question - what was the reason behind creating it? Was it designed for those places without a grid reference system? I kinda see it as a solution to a problem that within the UK doesn't exist.
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Re: 3LW - problems?

Post by jameso »

Lazarus wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 2:31 pm The what3words algorithm distributes similar-sounding three-word combinations around the world to enable both human and automated error-checking. The result is that if a three-word combination is entered slightly incorrectly and the result is still a valid what3words reference, the location will usually be so far away from the user's intended area that the error will be immediately obvious to both a user and an intelligent error-checking system.

more details needed from the above examples to explain what went wrong / be sure the reports are accurate

Gr are better but more folk can use the w3w app than can give a GR
That's what I'd expect, seems such obvious logic. I'd need to look up the report if I get a mo to clarify the details. Pretty sure it was in a Twitter browse, little chance to find if so.
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Re: 3LW - problems?

Post by ScotRoutes »

Bearbonesnorm wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 3:34 pm Out of interest and this is a genuine question - what was the reason behind creating it?

Money
Martin B
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Re: 3LW - problems?

Post by Martin B »

My issues with W3W are that if your asked for a W3W location you'll have to have previously downloaded the app or have a data signal so you can download it. As such why couldn't you just download a grid reference app.

Which leads me on to people who say it easier to use W3W than providing a grid reference. I'm pretty sure that using a grid reference app and quoting the numbers on your phone screen is more idiot proof than quoting 3words from the same screen that may be open to interpretation/spelling errors by the many persons involved in the chain of a rescue.

Also from an MR perspective and using OS maps to navigate to a casualty. How do you accurately transcribe a W3W location to an OS grid reference? The W3W mapping is not OS detailed mapping as far as i'm aware and there is a large degree of interpretation on the location when going over to an OS map
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Re: 3LW - problems?

Post by GregMay »

From an MR perspective.

- Most people in the UK have no idea how to give, or what, a grid reference is. Don't underestimate this. You, are the minority if you can get, and pass one.

- W3W is easier for "normal" people. It also has less of a tendency to go wrong when people relay a GR they've worked wrong (either digits, or northings/eastings inverted) because they haven't had to do it in a long time, or they use an app incorrect, or they are screaming due to a femoral fracture.

- When they ring emergency services they are asked "what is the nearest post code?" - useless in the hills. Dispatch often have no mechanism at present to take a GR to pass to us even if they have one.

- W3W passes three phonetic words, that are hard to misunderstand for a dispatch officer. They have a mechanism to pass this to us.

- We get tasked to help. We get their contact details. We send a Phonefind. We also get the W3W - this is taken with a handful of salt.

- The Phonefind system we use in MR sends a text to the cas, with a URL, that when clicked, gives us an 8 figure GR. IF they have battery and signal and 3G. This is not always the case.

- Quite often that W3W is the initial RV that we move to. Often it is not where the cas is.

- We issue our own GR to team and a W3W quite often.

Every team works differently, but the current "opinion" from MREW is here: https://www.mountain.rescue.org.uk/2020 ... hat3words/

Personally? Not a fan of it. GR works. But I've been able to pass a GR for about 30 years so.... different than most of the population.
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Re: 3LW - problems?

Post by GregMay »

Martin B wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 4:03 pm My issues with W3W are that if your asked for a W3W location you'll have to have previously downloaded the app or have a data signal so you can download it. As such why couldn't you just download a grid reference app.

Which leads me on to people who say it easier to use W3W than providing a grid reference. I'm pretty sure that using a grid reference app and quoting the numbers on your phone screen is more idiot proof than quoting 3words from the same screen that may be open to interpretation/spelling errors by the many persons involved in the chain of a rescue.

Also from an MR perspective and using OS maps to navigate to a casualty. How do you accurately transcribe a W3W location to an OS grid reference? The W3W mapping is not OS detailed mapping as far as i'm aware and there is a large degree of interpretation on the location when going over to an OS map
A W3W square is 3m x 3m - it's quite accurate if used correctly. (+/- 5m GPS error on top of this) The mapping is not what we want. We want a location.

We don't even use OS maps for searching sometimes, other things available.
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Re: 3LW - problems?

Post by GregMay »

voodoo_simon wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 2:48 pm
Call mountain rescue, put on speaker
MAJOR error number one there.

Don't ring us - RING THE POLICE - ask for MR assistance - we are all tasked by the police.

This is literally the main thing that slows down rescues being issued - it going to the wrong people.

https://www.mountain.rescue.org.uk/how- ... ue%20team.
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Re: 3LW - problems?

Post by Bearbonesnorm »

Interesting stuff Greg and always good to glean something from the horse's mouth :-bd
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Re: 3LW - problems?

Post by voodoo_simon »

GregMay wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 4:13 pm
voodoo_simon wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 2:48 pm
Call mountain rescue, put on speaker
MAJOR error number one there.

Don't ring us - RING THE POLICE - ask for MR assistance - we are all tasked by the police.

This is literally the main thing that slows down rescues being issued - it going to the wrong people.

https://www.mountain.rescue.org.uk/how- ... ue%20team.
Good point, was just cutting down the steps to show getting an grid ref up wasn’t difficult.

Thanks for the above info Greg, good to know that stuff. Didn’t realise they have no means of passing on a grid ref to you.

I had it the other week when I called the fire brigade to a disused golf course. Easiest option was to give them the closest entrance and meet them there (but I appreciate this would be different with a casualty).

...

There was a rumour years ago about texting a number at home and then this would enable the emergency services to trace your phone in the future if needs be. Any truth in this?
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Re: 3LW - problems?

Post by Martin B »

GregMay wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 4:10 pm

A W3W square is 3m x 3m - it's quite accurate if used correctly. (+/- 5m GPS error on top of this) The mapping is not what we want. We want a location.

We don't even use OS maps for searching sometimes, other things available.

W3W is easy for a punter to use for a location. But it's not fool proof.
The W3W location does not easily transcribe to any other mapping or location means. I could show you a W3W location on their undetailed mapping and you'll not be able to point to that location on an OS/harvey map or even at the bit of a hillside that is immediately in front of you.

Yes i do need a location to go to, but i do also need mapping to work out the best/safest way to get there.
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Re: 3LW - problems?

Post by GregMay »

voodoo_simon wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 4:33 pm There was a rumour years ago about texting a number at home and then this would enable the emergency services to trace your phone in the future if needs be. Any truth in this?
No, but you can set your phone up so that you can text emergency services: https://www.emergencysms.net/registerin ... _phone.php

Even if you have no signal it'll piggyback on any available network.
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Re: 3LW - problems?

Post by GregMay »

Bearbonesnorm wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 4:25 pm Interesting stuff Greg and always good to glean something from the horse's mouth :-bd
No bother Stu. Almost like I know what I'm talking about.
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Re: 3LW - problems?

Post by Martin B »

[/quote]

Good point, was just cutting down the steps to show getting an grid ref up wasn’t difficult.

Thanks for the above info Greg, good to know that stuff. Didn’t realise they have no means of passing on a grid ref to you.

I had it the other week when I called the fire brigade to a disused golf course. Easiest option was to give them the closest entrance and meet them there (but I appreciate this would be different with a casualty).

...

There was a rumour years ago about texting a number at home and then this would enable the emergency services to trace your phone in the future if needs be. Any truth in this?
[/quote]

You can pass a Grid ref and Lat/long to Police Scotland. As far as i'm aware it's the Scottish Ambulance Service that like postcodes. I'm not entirely sure of Scottish Fire and Rescue.

The 999 text service registers your mobile but no personal data. If you've called Police Scotland on 101/999 then the next time you phone from your mobile/landline then the previous calls can be seen by the operator and all the personal info retrieved.

In addition if your signal/call drops out prior to you giving your address the Police can use your mobiles EISEC data that provides a good accuracy of location the longer your on the call. Usually 90-95% accuracy which is street to street accuracy generally speaking. There are limitations but the tech is getting better.
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Re: 3LW - problems?

Post by Moder-dye »

IIRC w3w was initially developed for in urban situations (and probably not the UK with grid refs) to identify things like entrances/exits for big stadiums and other stuff where a GR would be less than practical and certainly not for the people involved.

I think it is quite a cool system, though being word/spelling based open to error with vocal miscommunication, I assume copying and pasting in a text solves that though. If you can ring, you can most likely text?

I have an inbuilt snobbery about it growing up with, and using GR regularly, but most other people really do have no idea at all, so if I'm giving a location to some of my friends/colleagues for a meet up somewhere they've never been I'll end up sending both to make life easier.

It's great for new passwords too, and often ironically amusing!
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Re: 3LW - problems?

Post by Dave Barter »

The massive problem with w3w is that the words can change for a location. They do not guarantee it is static which would kill their business model. As an ex-Royal Mail employee I am only too aware of the damage proprietary address databases cause .
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Re: 3LW - problems?

Post by PaulB2 »

IIRC, Australia is moving fast enough that the words change regularly
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Re: 3LW - problems?

Post by Moder-dye »

PaulB2 wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 11:20 pm IIRC, Australia is moving fast enough that the words change regularly
What the continent?😱
Not a thing that crossed my tiny mind, but I guess the plates are shifting within the earth at differing rates, but I'm not sure how things are geo-located?
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Re: 3LW - problems?

Post by Bearbonesnorm »

As an ex-Royal Mail employee
I read that as ex-Royal Marine ... dunno why but it surprised me :wink:
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