'The China effect'

Talk about anything.

Moderators: Bearbonesnorm, Taylor, Chew

User avatar
RIP
Posts: 9007
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2014 7:24 pm
Location: Surfing The Shores Of Sanity Since 1959
Contact:

Re: 'The China effect'

Post by RIP »

Started typing then thought... nah, far too complex, lots of contradictions, catch 22's, myriad often conflicting criteria, etc. Basically one can only do the subject justice after several pints in The Star before the WRT or in the T** D** during the WRT.

You can only do your best, but do it as often as you can. Yes one individual's considered choice absolutely makes literally a world of difference and is worth it. Despite it being diametrically opposed to someone's else's choice for the same item, who also probably think they are making the most ethical choice. At least you have thought about it and considered the consequences of your actions in light of the information you have, which is probably more than the majority do. Both positive choices and boycotts will, and do, make a difference. Unfortunately a lot of it is down to having the time and money to make the 'right' decision. Many people who'd like to make the 'right' decision have neither of those.

Re food, I reckon we could be a lot closer to 'self sufficient' if we stopped wasting 33% of it, bought seasonal, and ignored marketing types who insist we need to constantly drink coconut water to stay healthy.

Oops, I've started typing now :wink: .
"My God, Ponsonby, I'm two-thirds of the way to the grave and what have I done?" - RIP

The sign outside the asylum is the wrong way round.....

"At least you got some stories" - James Acaster
ScotRoutes
Posts: 8144
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 9:56 am

Re: 'The China effect'

Post by ScotRoutes »

Pretty soon, England won't even be self-sufficient in fresh water.
lune ranger
Posts: 2380
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:52 pm
Location: Peoples Republic of Devon

Re: 'The China effect'

Post by lune ranger »

ScotRoutes wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 7:48 pm Pretty soon, England won't even be self-sufficient in fresh water.
Or Scotland in super strength lager :lol:
If you are going through hell, keep going.
WSC
User avatar
Bearbonesnorm
Posts: 23904
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 8:53 pm
Location: my own little world

Re: 'The China effect'

Post by Bearbonesnorm »

Pretty soon, England won't even be self-sufficient in fresh water.
It isn't at the minute - much of it's Welsh :wink:
May the bridges you burn light your way
ton
Posts: 2490
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2015 9:53 am

Re: 'The China effect'

Post by ton »

re my input on this earlier.
i said my mind didnt think properly sometimes, but my thoughts make me happy. and cabbage soup for every meal will do me just fine.............. :lol:
jameso
Posts: 5035
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:48 pm

Re: 'The China effect'

Post by jameso »

You're right Reg, it's all too complicated really. Maybe I was wondering how bad something needs to get before it tips and changes our buying habits but there's no answer to that, or even a clear way for us to make the point. Social media sees things go viral, consumer change probably happens in the same way just more slowly.
redefined_cycles wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:58 pm
johnnystorm wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:56 pm
redefined_cycles wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 5:23 pm Looks like that's what your doing and as such I'll keep proudly buying Pinnacle gear.
I don't think James' good practice and Pinnacles ethics are connected anymore. :wink:
As for Mike Ashley's business ethics...
Fair enough... well whatever new posh bike business he's hopefully looking to open up. Hopefully he'll do carbon too :grin:
I left Evans last year, under SD it was heading in a different direction and I had an opportunity elsewhere. As for carbon, me, not likely :grin:
Or Scotland in super strength lager :lol:
I thought, hold on, Tennant's is brewed in Scotland? Looked it up and apparently Tennant's Super is brewed in Luton now.
lune ranger
Posts: 2380
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:52 pm
Location: Peoples Republic of Devon

Re: 'The China effect'

Post by lune ranger »

and Buckfast comes from Devon...
If you are going through hell, keep going.
WSC
directdrive
Posts: 137
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2021 12:33 pm

Re: 'The China effect'

Post by directdrive »

I also have complex opinions on this. Firstly I don't think there's such a thing as ethical consumption under capitalism, because while the profits end up in private hands the externalities and indirect costs (environmental damage, slavery, poor working conditions in general, etc) are distributed among the world's poorest people.

The idea that 'ethical consumption' or 'voting with your wallet' is the solution to the world's problems is a deliberate con to shift responsibility away from giant corporations and the governments that assist them onto individual consumers. It's a total non-starter if the aim is to improve the world or stop ecological collapse.

Saying that, obviously it's good to not actively buy products that are terrible for the worker/environment etc if it can be avoided. Of course locally made, sustainably sourced gear is going to be best all round including in terms of quality, it's just more expensive. I still do stuff like pay a bit extra for renewable electricity at home, only buy ethically sourced down products, try and buy things second hand where possible etc. I'm just not under the illusion that it's enough to make a serious difference on a global/societal level. It's also unfair to expect people to make these kinds of consumption choices when they don't have the money to do so.

I also think it's a misunderstanding to identify China as the problem here. China is currently the centre of global manufacturing, but every ethical problem that can be identified re: Chinese goods also applies/has applied in the past to wherever else stuff is made. It's just the age old story of the continuous race to the bottom in terms of ethical standards in exchange for cheap stuff. I don't love China or the CCP but it's also a bit of a narrow view to identify China on its own as the problem rather than the global market system it's operating in. China may be nominally 'communist' but in terms of global trade it's an authoritarian capitalist country, and one that's highy efficient and 'good' at what it does.

As pointed out above, most Western companies except the real artisan backyard/garage producers (and some of them to boot) are implicated in global manufacturing and trade chains that also include China. That's unavoidable.

There are no easy answers to this. Completely closing a country's borders is going to take you back to the dark ages pretty bloody quickly. More global integration, not less, is going to be the way things go.

For my part I spend several hours a week organising locally in the community. To my mind that's way more productive than worrying about consumption choices.
User avatar
psling
Posts: 1606
Joined: Sat Feb 08, 2014 11:36 am
Location: Forest of Dean

Re: 'The China effect'

Post by psling »

An incredibly complex subject, rooted in social and economic history and one on which I'd struggle to express myself in less than several thousand words!

Perhaps controversially, what I would say is that we are commenting from a position of privilege in our first world capitalist society.
Where we see oppression, the oppressed sometimes have a (skewed) salvation - we can never fully understand that because we don't live in their circumstances or have their expectations. So remember, for example, when we make our decisions not to buy a product because we see slave labour, that labourer may end up scavenging on waste dumps when the boycotted sweatshop is closed down.

As others have said... It's difficult.
We go out into the hills to lose ourselves, not to get lost. You are only lost if you need to be somewhere else and if you really need to be somewhere else then you're probably in the wrong place to begin with.
jameso
Posts: 5035
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:48 pm

Re: 'The China effect'

Post by jameso »

Good post directdrive, thanks. I don't really mean to single out China as an example here (thread title aside, ha), though on HR abuse and authoritarianism they're way up there so maybe fair.
The idea that 'ethical consumption' or 'voting with your wallet' is the solution to the world's problems is a deliberate con to shift responsibility away from giant corporations and the governments that assist them onto individual consumers.
Good point, read while idling in town then thought about it on the ride home. The other day I started thinking that if we feel unable to make change, we're only passengers, then who does have influence? Governments and big companies. Perhaps if society as a whole is less consumerist and self-centred we'd have more ethical society, then better government, in turn influence in the world. I know, all sounds a bit "Hey man.. hippies can change the world (inhales)" :grin: but after I read 'Let My People Go Surfing' I thought it was possible, to a point. Which is what you say with,
For my part I spend several hours a week organising locally in the community. To my mind that's way more productive than worrying about consumption choices.
For most of us I think you have a better solution there than anything else. It's indirect on this topic but real change or action on a local level is harder to achieve as well as far more valuable than another protest e-signature or forum navel gaze. Those are also the type of actions that can have the viral effect that can affect wider change.

(I've gone off specific problems and onto rather idealistic general thinking I know, but that'll do for me for now..)
So remember, for example, when we make our decisions not to buy a product because we see slave labour, that labourer may end up scavenging on waste dumps when the boycotted sweatshop is closed down.
That's it, the people I've met who run factories in China are good people. They are not their government and it'd be wrong of me to think they can do much/anything about their government. Different matter with 'Buying British' in some cases but I'll try to stay off that tangent.
jameso
Posts: 5035
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:48 pm

Re: 'The China effect'

Post by jameso »

We are proud to announce that our parent company, Quality Bicycle Products, is now a Certified B Corporation.

What does that mean for us? As part of the QBP family, Salsa Cycles will continue to pursue the highest verified standards of social and environmental performance, transparency, and accountability.

What does that mean for you? You can rest assured that we act in a way that benefits our workers, customers, community and the environment.
From Salsa's social media recently.

Interesting - I know Alpkit got B-Corp certified a while back. Alpkit import some products from Asia but I think of them as a company who make a lot of kit in the UK, offer repairs and have always had a 'small UK Patagonia' feel. I buy from them knowing they're good people who wouldn't put profit first when it comes to environmental impact. I'll pre-empt some comments on offering carbon frames from China in a range : ) I could agree, but that's also the point here with QBP.

QBP? Mass importers of Taiwan and China-made parts. I expect they're a great company to work for, no doubts there. With B-Corp having Patagonia and others like that as examples of their kind, I'm now wondering what sort of transparency of supplier audits they might have to show to justify this. I know a few of their suppliers and have worked with
/in a few factories they use. They're good companies and they'll be meeting the regulations they need to. China in particular has tightened up on a lot of processes that were allowed until only a couple of years ago and that changed how many parts are produced and finished. You still hear about the work-arounds though.
I can't say I've ever felt too great about the general business in terms of environmental effect. I know a chap over there who's got a doctorate in Environmental Science and his take on manufacturing there is that it may be done legally but the regs have to allow competitive practices ie shortcuts, they have to be workable economically. That's accepted and what we all do changes in a way that's viable rather than shuts things down completely.

What's my point? That B-Corp is about leading change and that's good to see. QBP are doing the right thing. If a company who manufacture a lot of non-recyclable product overseas (carbon frames and forks, e-bikes batteries, etc) can get this certification that's good - I hope the transparency that B-Corp talk about does help create change along the supply chain. I'm not going to knee-jerk and say you can't be an ethical importer from Asia, it's more about interest in what effect this could have. If it's worth anything I'm sure we'll see signs of it?

About B Corps
Certified B Corporations are businesses that meet the highest standards of verified social and environmental performance, public transparency, and legal accountability to balance profit and purpose. B Corps are accelerating a global culture shift to redefine success in business and build a more inclusive and sustainable economy.

Society’s most challenging problems cannot be solved by government and non-profits alone. By harnessing the power of business, B Corps use profits and growth as a means to a greater end: positive impact for their employees, communities, and the environment. The B Corp community works toward reduced inequality, lower levels of poverty, a healthier environment, stronger communities, and the creation of more high quality jobs with dignity and purpose.

B Corps form a community of leaders and drive a global movement of people using business as a force for good. The values and aspirations of the B Corp community are embedded in the B Corp Declaration of Interdependence.
tobasco
Posts: 180
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 9:06 pm

Re: 'The China effect'

Post by tobasco »

great so many of us here care about this type of thing.

As I see it, without going full Greta, the things we as individuals can do are

I. Buy as ethically as possible
Ii. influence people we know, particularly younger generation. At the very least get them to think.
Iii. Align our vote with green/ethical polities

I see the world entering a new era. west is in decline, China knows it and see themselves in the ascendant. A problem with our democracies is that politicians cannot be truthful, doesn’t win votes.

Rare earth metals are the foundation and future of our tech industry in the way that fossil fuels were 150 years ago. China has been buying up the rights and cutting deals around the planet for at least a decade. S’why Trump wanted Greenland IMO.

What UK needs is a rabbit from the hat, fusion, bio etc. We’re good at that stuff.
redefined_cycles
Posts: 9282
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2016 8:19 am
Location: Dewsbury, West Yorkshire

Re: 'The China effect'

Post by redefined_cycles »

The other day after seeing the report from CJ Werleman. In which he pays tribute to the Uigher population of China and highlighted the 4 types of electrocution used on em - 4th being electrocution using an anal device - and then seeing the report (which I'll not link but available on Youtube) about the systematic rape of the ladies of same community. I finally decided that I'm gonna stop buying China goods...

Israel products (due to the apartheid state continued with aupport from the international communites and world govts) I'd stopped buying years and years ago though it's sometimes a bit of a chore figuring stuff out. Anyway, so today I took delivery ofy beautiful Santa Cruz frame...

It's a thing of beauty and for some stupid reason I'd assumed it was actually made in Santa Cruz. Pretty certain my Superlight used to have such a logo. Sadly the SC had a proud stamp of 'made in China'. Thankfully SC were careful enough to enaure the Made in China logo wasn't under the laquer as I'd have then needed to get a Sharpie to it. Twas a peelable label which I've taken off.

Weightwise and quality of construction is perfect. 1200g including the seatpin, rockguard and the chainslap protector which is strong shaped nylon. Can't wait to built it up but I'll be careful of future purchases from the various bike and kit brands...

Does anyone have any idea of how I'd find where the bits were made from the manufacturers. Obviously I'm only gonna forgoe to individual parts that were specifically made in China and happy to get the gear that was made elsewhere. Chile and SouthAfrica as well as Taiwan being my prime preferances (Chile and SA cos of the trade-pause with Israel until they aee a significant stop in the 2 tier system implemented there against the Palestinians)...

Enough mysery-talk... here's a pic of my gorgeous frame :-bd

[Pic added to 'Postmans Been' thread to allow this to remain pic free and miserable thread for now :smile: ]
Last edited by redefined_cycles on Wed May 19, 2021 4:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Bearbonesnorm
Posts: 23904
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 8:53 pm
Location: my own little world

Re: 'The China effect'

Post by Bearbonesnorm »

Think you forgot summat Shaf.
May the bridges you burn light your way
redefined_cycles
Posts: 9282
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2016 8:19 am
Location: Dewsbury, West Yorkshire

Re: 'The China effect'

Post by redefined_cycles »

Bearbonesnorm wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 4:08 pm Think you forgot summat Shaf.
Lol... I didn't wanna add a beautiful frame to an otherwise misearable topic Stu. Hence I've added it in the happy thread :-bd

NB. It's gonna ve interesting trying to build it on a budget and with my criteria before the next BB200 (if i get in)...
ton
Posts: 2490
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2015 9:53 am

Re: 'The China effect'

Post by ton »

would it be possible to create a list on non chinese cycling parts/products.

years back on singletrack someone specced and built a complete british or european bike.
User avatar
thenorthwind
Posts: 2574
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2016 6:07 pm
Location: Newcastle

Re: 'The China effect'

Post by thenorthwind »

ton wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 4:34 pm would it be possible to create a list on non chinese cycling parts/products.

years back on singletrack someone specced and built a complete british or european bike.
Wasn't that recently, due to Brexit? Or did they just rehash it?

Would be very difficult to build something entirely with non-Chinese-made (not to mention not really being a solution to the problem) parts or subparts, and that's before you consider raw materials and tools... and then, where do you stop?

There's those blingy pedals that JC's just bought - Pembree if I remember the name correctly.
redefined_cycles
Posts: 9282
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2016 8:19 am
Location: Dewsbury, West Yorkshire

Re: 'The China effect'

Post by redefined_cycles »


Would be very difficult to build something entirely with non-Chinese-made (not to mention not really being a solution to the problem) parts or subparts,
Agreed... but we gotta start from somewhere. Years ago in the kaiser sozay movie (was it Usual Suspects) I think the saying went, "all it takes for evil to prevail is for good people to do nowt"...

Besides, I've always thought it to be impossible and hence not bothered. But the reports just keep getting more horrific as if the Uigher concentration camps aren't bad enough. I'm just going off the verse where the Quran/Allah describes how the ants spoke to each other to get out of the way before the army of Solomon (PBUH) crushes em. For me it's not insignificant personally and maybe there was a time when folks thought that apartheid southAfrica would never end...

Oh well, all we can do is try (and it's just a personal challenge and privelege)...
User avatar
johnnystorm
Posts: 3947
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2012 9:55 pm
Location: Eastern (Anglia) Front

Re: 'The China effect'

Post by johnnystorm »

redefined_cycles wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 3:26 pm It's a thing of beauty and for some stupid reason I'd assumed it was actually made in Santa Cruz. Pretty certain my Superlight used to have such a logo.
My 1999ish Chameleon also has a "made in the usa" sticker. I have a sneaking suspicion though that they were like Haro's of that era that were welded in Mexico and painted in the USA to qualify for the sticker...
Image
User avatar
thenorthwind
Posts: 2574
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2016 6:07 pm
Location: Newcastle

Re: 'The China effect'

Post by thenorthwind »

redefined_cycles wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 4:57 pm Oh well, all we can do is try (and it's just a personal challenge and privelege)...
Agreed. A while ago, on wondering for the millionth time why the **** I bother when 99% of the population couldn't give a hoot as long as they have everything they want at next to no cost or effort, I decided that I just try and do the right thing for my own satisfaction, if nothing else. By which logic, buying a British-made bike part doesn't have to change the world, but if it keeps your conscience clear, then that's justification enough 🤷‍♂️
ScotRoutes
Posts: 8144
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 9:56 am

Re: 'The China effect'

Post by ScotRoutes »

redefined_cycles
Posts: 9282
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2016 8:19 am
Location: Dewsbury, West Yorkshire

Re: 'The China effect'

Post by redefined_cycles »

Colin... thankfully for the social media channels the BBC (who refused to report on any of the aparthied goings on or that Israel was actually opressing... in fact Sky UK recently took an Israeli politician to task on the killings recently and SKY Australia has humiliated and tried to make a 'dirty dog' of him) misinformation doesn't stand anymore. They refused to report anything other than 100% pro-Israel for years...

Anyway, I know noone wants to hear this but bombings are childsplay. Recently (like 3 days ago) there was social media footage showing about 7 x 7 to 13 year olds who had been sniped (all headshots). Such a sorry situation but (well Islam teaches to) we live in hope.

One things for certain, we all have to open up our eyes and smell the coffee. Like the world did with Mandela and SA.

NB. I think I'm already struggling to fulfill my target of non-china but I will try my best. Hopefully a deal going through on some used DT swiss off STW and possibly forks from SLARGE...

One things for certain... we need to keep smiling (quite literally, the Palestinians laypeople do... it's phenomenal)
User avatar
thenorthwind
Posts: 2574
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2016 6:07 pm
Location: Newcastle

Re: 'The China effect'

Post by thenorthwind »

Yes, the scale of Britain's complicity in oppression in every corner of the globe through arms sales is quite shocking. Name an oppressive regime and you can bet we've sold arms to them. The most visible manifestation of this is the DESI trade fair, where all the arms dealers, military top brass and sheikhs come to butter each up, stroke guns* and get excited about missile specs and the like.

*not a euphemism. Probably.
ScotRoutes
Posts: 8144
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 9:56 am

Re: 'The China effect'

Post by ScotRoutes »

And how would we feel if folk in other countries were boycotting our goods and services?
Lazarus
Posts: 3598
Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2013 10:49 am

Re: 'The China effect'

Post by Lazarus »

Depends why they were doing it
if we were an apartheid state or commiting genocide i would be thankful- you ?

Actually you boycott Planet X *,for far less than that, so what is your point caller

* So do I geerally unless they are insanely cheap - i did buy two tyres and camelbak water boottle for £13 or something nuts
Post Reply