As a man I can never understand a situation from a woman’s perspective but I can try and I want to be aware of the issues so that I can try to lessen them.
As many have mentioned communication starts a long time before we say anything, facial expressions, posture, gestures, personal space all have a meaning and this will often vary depending on the context in which it occurs. Non-verbal communication is at least as important as what we say and we need to both read and express these appropriately to the situation before we start to speak.
I hope good manners, or offering assistance don’t become the wrong thing to do, to me they are bound up with so many positive characteristics such as tolerance, respect, understanding, compassion.
For myself I will always appreciate kindness and will try to return that kindness to those I meet what ever the situation.
Topical Article By A Woman Who Bothies Alone
Moderators: Bearbonesnorm, Taylor, Chew
Re: Topical Article By A Woman Who Bothies Alone
I am unable to speak for any woman never mind lots or all but I have never found anyone asking me if i was ok when fixing a bike to be " demeaning" - kind ,helpful, pleasent etc and I always always ask. If i see a stopped cyclist , even if i am driving a car; that is what cyclists do for each otherthe act of offering help can be seen to be demeaning when crossing the gender divide.
As for the rest I am not getting involved as I will just be given a panda but reading some of this its hard to believe we will have helped reassure women
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Dave Barter
- Posts: 3609
- Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2013 6:21 pm
Re: Topical Article By A Woman Who Bothies Alone
I know almost all the people on this thread personally. They are the crowd a lone woman would want to meet if she walked into a bothy. Without exception the people I know would be respectful, polite, caring and protective. So something has gone wrong in the discussion as invariably happens on the internet.
EDIT: Apart from the smell
EDIT: Apart from the smell
Last edited by Dave Barter on Fri Mar 19, 2021 3:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Elite keyboard warrior, DNF'er, Swearer
Re: Topical Article By A Woman Who Bothies Alone
true that and your reply would have had a lot more swearing in the real world 
Re: Topical Article By A Woman Who Bothies Alone
Absolutely.
Everyones an individual, but when you meet a stranger, you have to start somewhere.
Do you treat them the same to start with, or make an assumption on how they wish to be treated based on their gender?
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trogladytes
- Posts: 78
- Joined: Sun Feb 21, 2021 8:43 am
- Location: Lancashire
Re: Topical Article By A Woman Who Bothies Alone
I think that depends on how you treat other people but probably yes, consider whether it is a man or a woman you are talking to and if it's a woman then don't invade their space, be ready to move on if they don't want help. If you are in a bothy make it clear that you will leave the room while they change, something you may not think necessary for a man. Also, avoid blocking exits, i suspect most people prefer this tbh.
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trogladytes
- Posts: 78
- Joined: Sun Feb 21, 2021 8:43 am
- Location: Lancashire
Re: Topical Article By A Woman Who Bothies Alone
As previously said, some of the responses on here have been truly heartening, and i am really glad to have seen them.
On the subject of whether the article should have been written, I think it should, its an important topic. The reason there are negligible if any cases of sexual violence against women in bothies is because there are negligible cases of women soloing in bothies, because in other areas of life there are ridiculously high cases of sexual violence, or just plain creepy behaviour. It's not about bothies, it's about society, it just extends to bothies.
I have never been to a bothy alone, and i'm not sure i would, in another outdoor scenario i have had one of a group of men (all of whom i knew to some degree) say things that are really inappropriate and made me never want to be alone with him, while the others, all really nice people said nothing, just looked at the floor in embarrassment. It's not just how you treat women, it's how you react when other people behave badly.
Borderer's points on this are really well put,
On the subject of whether the article should have been written, I think it should, its an important topic. The reason there are negligible if any cases of sexual violence against women in bothies is because there are negligible cases of women soloing in bothies, because in other areas of life there are ridiculously high cases of sexual violence, or just plain creepy behaviour. It's not about bothies, it's about society, it just extends to bothies.
I have never been to a bothy alone, and i'm not sure i would, in another outdoor scenario i have had one of a group of men (all of whom i knew to some degree) say things that are really inappropriate and made me never want to be alone with him, while the others, all really nice people said nothing, just looked at the floor in embarrassment. It's not just how you treat women, it's how you react when other people behave badly.
Borderer's points on this are really well put,
Re: Topical Article By A Woman Who Bothies Alone
I do understand the issue here, and maybe not as a woman but as a father of a 19 year old daughter who loves cycling. I think we all need to be careful here as this can get out of hand and make things worse.
Just because you are a man does not mean you cannot be sexually assaulted, and I was when I was younger by a scout leader in a situation like this.
There will always be bad people, but on the whole most I find are pretty normal, and if any body asked me for a few moments of privacy whilst in a bothy I would be more than happy for that, something that was not afforded me when I shared a bothy with a couple a few years back, I said when I got up a little jokingly that I was going to put fresh bibs on and some bum cream, and you may want to avert your gaze, she just sat there looking at me, I thought she may be deaf so just went outside in the cold and got wet muddy feet.
So whilst I do get what the author is saying it can cut both ways.
Try sharing a trench with a soldier of the opposite sex, sometimes for a 24hr stag.
Truth is there is an element of society who are deviant, however it is unusual to find them walking/cycling in remote places on the faint chance of meeting someone, much better for them to work in large towns and city's.
I suspect this hasn't helped, but it is my opinion we must be the force for good, and the worst bit about us male cyclists is the smell, we must learn to live alongside each other with respect, and not be afraid to speak up when necessary.
Just because you are a man does not mean you cannot be sexually assaulted, and I was when I was younger by a scout leader in a situation like this.
There will always be bad people, but on the whole most I find are pretty normal, and if any body asked me for a few moments of privacy whilst in a bothy I would be more than happy for that, something that was not afforded me when I shared a bothy with a couple a few years back, I said when I got up a little jokingly that I was going to put fresh bibs on and some bum cream, and you may want to avert your gaze, she just sat there looking at me, I thought she may be deaf so just went outside in the cold and got wet muddy feet.
So whilst I do get what the author is saying it can cut both ways.
Try sharing a trench with a soldier of the opposite sex, sometimes for a 24hr stag.
Truth is there is an element of society who are deviant, however it is unusual to find them walking/cycling in remote places on the faint chance of meeting someone, much better for them to work in large towns and city's.
I suspect this hasn't helped, but it is my opinion we must be the force for good, and the worst bit about us male cyclists is the smell, we must learn to live alongside each other with respect, and not be afraid to speak up when necessary.
Re: Topical Article By A Woman Who Bothies Alone
I think this is where the article is causing a bit of contention.trogladytes wrote: ↑Fri Mar 19, 2021 3:38 pmI think that depends on how you treat other people but probably yes, consider whether it is a man or a woman you are talking to and if it's a woman then don't invade their space, be ready to move on if they don't want help. If you are in a bothy make it clear that you will leave the room while they change, something you may not think necessary for a man. Also, avoid blocking exits, i suspect most people prefer this tbh.
If I met Dave or Bridget in a bothy I’d do those things for both of them regardless, and treat them the same as a person who enjoys adventure and the outdoors.
The debate seems to suggest that a wholesale change is needed.
In the wider world, most definitely but from all of the people I’ve met on here over the years, 99% of them would do the same and get it right 99% of the time.
Re: Topical Article By A Woman Who Bothies Alone
this does not mean the lone woman meeting them would know and tbh its the 1 % [ i dont think its that high personally] that they are worrying about anyway
This should all be about how we[men] can best make them[women] feel at ease -probably best we listen to the few women on here and what they are telling us as I think everyone on here does want to be welcoming, on the forum and out there in the wilds
This should all be about how we[men] can best make them[women] feel at ease -probably best we listen to the few women on here and what they are telling us as I think everyone on here does want to be welcoming, on the forum and out there in the wilds
Re: Topical Article By A Woman Who Bothies Alone
For me this highlights how women feel every day but put into a different and relevant context to make the point in a different way and engage with a certain demographic.
If you are a man can I suggest you walk a few paces behind a prettily dressed, unescorted lady of you acquaintance in a public place and pay particular attention to the way the other men around her react and behave. (Farthers with teenage daughters will already have done this) Reflect on how you might feel in her shoes.
If you really want to know how women feel, spend some time in a high security women's prison doing repair work where you are not segregated from all the prisoners because they have convinced the guard's that they are safe. In many circumstances it might be you and 1 female guard and a number of prisoners. There will be quiet personal comments, they will be very frank and to the point and they will be meant to hurt. If you are comfortable with that and don't find it intimidating I'll be amazed. Remember you can leave and they'll be locked in, that doesn't happen for women in the outside world.
Can't remember who to credit for this; For evil to flourish all that is required is that good people do nothing.
If you are a man can I suggest you walk a few paces behind a prettily dressed, unescorted lady of you acquaintance in a public place and pay particular attention to the way the other men around her react and behave. (Farthers with teenage daughters will already have done this) Reflect on how you might feel in her shoes.
If you really want to know how women feel, spend some time in a high security women's prison doing repair work where you are not segregated from all the prisoners because they have convinced the guard's that they are safe. In many circumstances it might be you and 1 female guard and a number of prisoners. There will be quiet personal comments, they will be very frank and to the point and they will be meant to hurt. If you are comfortable with that and don't find it intimidating I'll be amazed. Remember you can leave and they'll be locked in, that doesn't happen for women in the outside world.
Can't remember who to credit for this; For evil to flourish all that is required is that good people do nothing.
If at first you don't succeed you're running about average!
Introverts Unite! We are here, we are uncomfortable and we want to go home.
Introverts Unite! We are here, we are uncomfortable and we want to go home.
Re: Topical Article By A Woman Who Bothies Alone
This has got really deep and meaningful and I’m not sure what to make of it now. I still think I’d like to live n a place where the article didn’t need to be written
Re: Topical Article By A Woman Who Bothies Alone
I think that a forum discussion on this is always going to be difficult.
I don’t think I learned much new from the article but I still felt it probably needed saying and it helped me think the issue through.
I have done quite a bit of work on diversity and gender having spent years working in community development projects in Latin America. I learned that you have to listen to all voices, experiences and realities. If women say there is a problem I think I have to listen. I also try and feel what it’s like in their shoes... and whilst I will never know or experience how they feel, I think I can imagine enough for it to be useful.
A few thoughts:
Men significantly outnumber women in outdoor passtimes. The subject of the debate is one reason for this, especially for women who want to do stuff solo.
I think that most men feel uneasy that we are are lumped in with the bad guys simply because of our sex, something which we have no control over. But I feel I have to accept that and be thankful that I am much much less likely to be subject to some of the bad stuff that women are subject to on a routine basis. For that I am thankful and for me that thankfulness amply compensates my uneasy feelings.
Serious incidents are rare, but not rare enough for them to be discounted. They can also be catastrophic when they happen. When one takes into account both the consequences and likelihood of a serious assault, women do have to be more careful than men and most women are acutely conscious of that. That consciousness can cause anxiety and will very often modify behaviour and influence decision making. The net impact of this is that women are subject to an additional risk management burden that often stops them doing stuff in the same way as men are able to do it.
As ordinary bike packers just riding around we may feel we are not be able to do much about the risk of serious stuff happening. But if we can help make the place better for women to enjoy the things we do, the numbers will increase and there is some safety in numbers.
Even if you discount serious incidents, women are still subject to a base line of rubbish that is at best irritating and at worst anxiety generating. We can do something about that by making sure we don’t tolerate the rubbish when we see it, by behaving in a helpful ways ourselves. This discussion may be uncomfortable but it may just help us think about the issue.
I have three daughters and no sons so i can’t compare how I’d feel between daughter and son. But i imagine I would feel differently about a daughter staying in bothies on a regular basis as compared to a son. Do the stats support the need to feel differently? Well on the serious end maybe not. The risk of other catastrophes (that I don’t worry about) happening will be higher. But that’s not the point.
Life can be different for women and men have a significant role in the negative aspects of that difference.
I don’t think I learned much new from the article but I still felt it probably needed saying and it helped me think the issue through.
I have done quite a bit of work on diversity and gender having spent years working in community development projects in Latin America. I learned that you have to listen to all voices, experiences and realities. If women say there is a problem I think I have to listen. I also try and feel what it’s like in their shoes... and whilst I will never know or experience how they feel, I think I can imagine enough for it to be useful.
A few thoughts:
Men significantly outnumber women in outdoor passtimes. The subject of the debate is one reason for this, especially for women who want to do stuff solo.
I think that most men feel uneasy that we are are lumped in with the bad guys simply because of our sex, something which we have no control over. But I feel I have to accept that and be thankful that I am much much less likely to be subject to some of the bad stuff that women are subject to on a routine basis. For that I am thankful and for me that thankfulness amply compensates my uneasy feelings.
Serious incidents are rare, but not rare enough for them to be discounted. They can also be catastrophic when they happen. When one takes into account both the consequences and likelihood of a serious assault, women do have to be more careful than men and most women are acutely conscious of that. That consciousness can cause anxiety and will very often modify behaviour and influence decision making. The net impact of this is that women are subject to an additional risk management burden that often stops them doing stuff in the same way as men are able to do it.
As ordinary bike packers just riding around we may feel we are not be able to do much about the risk of serious stuff happening. But if we can help make the place better for women to enjoy the things we do, the numbers will increase and there is some safety in numbers.
Even if you discount serious incidents, women are still subject to a base line of rubbish that is at best irritating and at worst anxiety generating. We can do something about that by making sure we don’t tolerate the rubbish when we see it, by behaving in a helpful ways ourselves. This discussion may be uncomfortable but it may just help us think about the issue.
I have three daughters and no sons so i can’t compare how I’d feel between daughter and son. But i imagine I would feel differently about a daughter staying in bothies on a regular basis as compared to a son. Do the stats support the need to feel differently? Well on the serious end maybe not. The risk of other catastrophes (that I don’t worry about) happening will be higher. But that’s not the point.
Life can be different for women and men have a significant role in the negative aspects of that difference.
Re: Topical Article By A Woman Who Bothies Alone
I too have thought long and hard about what I would say on this topic, my fear being that people will think that I am betraying the sisterhood, or in some way minimizing the issue of violence against women – neither is my intention.
I agree that it is a good thing that we’re having this discussion and thinking about this issue – it’s generally quite a good idea to think IMO, and to have a lively debate. And as one of the few women on here, it’s quite right that I should write something about my take on this. Just my own personal opinion, shaped of course like everyone else’s by my own life experiences, so I will throw in a few anecdotes to illustrate my points. (And sorry, this may be a long one….)
Saturday morning I went for a run. Funnily enough, at some stage a man overtook me, we said “hi” and smiled at each other as he passed. Up until the discussion here, any thoughts about man/ woman, did I hear him come up behind me, at what distance did he make himself known to me etc. would never have occurred to me (I only would’ve registered he was a man insomuch as I’m ok with that, whereas had it been a woman, my competitive side would’ve come out and I’d have been annoyed with myself). A reflection of where I live and run I’m sure, but I think it illustrates the point Stu makes about not creating an issue/ fear (on either part) where there isn’t one.
Yesterday afternoon, coming home with husband and daughter on board, as I get out of the car our (still relatively new) next door neighbour passes with his dog and says to me “I watched you running down that hill the other day. That was quite something. You’re a lovely mover. A real athlete” Now I’m fairly sure he was just trying to pay a compliment, but… he always manages to come across really pervy….Don’t do it Kevin!!
Getting changed: I’ll be honest, in my experience of all things sports and outdoorsy, hostelling etc., I have never ever thought of this in any way threatening. It’s all about context, and in this context, getting changed for a purpose at the side of a road or wherever, it’s just a thing we do. Never experienced anything other than people doing it fairly discreetly and averting eyes at relevant points. If anyone (of either gender) did wander round with wobbly bits exposed for any length of time, now that would be a bit weird. As a woman, when there’s men around, I would also say it’s only fair for us to be discreet about it, so as not to make any men feel uncomfortable. Good job us ladies are born with that ninja skill of donning and doffing bras under our t-shirts.
The radar: Yes, I have it too, I guess most or all of us women have been brought up with is since we were young girls. I don’t generally find it a bother, again a reflection of where I live and my general lifestyle these days (few late nights out in cities etc.). Yes, I agree, we shouldn’t have to have it, everybody (of any gender) should be, and feel, safe whenever or wherever they are. But in the meantime/ real world, it’s just sensible to have a good radar on, like being aware of one’s surroundings, thinking about route taken to walk home etc.. And a good personal safety radar is not just for women, as others have already said. Mr Z’s radar is way more acute than mine, being ex military in the 70s and 80s and ten years in London have taken care of that…. And yes, there is a different aspect to this for us women, i.e. the fear of rape (always remembering there is also male rape). As has been said, fear is not always rational. For me, the challenge here for us women, is to perhaps think about what is being sensible, and what is actually not a very rational fear. And if it’s not rational, maybe try and let it go.
The radar for me is always associated with the story which my mum retells at any such occasion; it is how my cousin came to be, which is as a result of my aunt going away for a camping weekend with some “mates”, only to find herself having been plied with spirits, raped, pregnant and no memory of what happened. To this day, my mum does not think it’s safe for me to go camping, even on camp sites, and she doesn’t know about my recent bivvying exploits. Now, is it rational for me as a 48 year old woman in 2021 to limit my activities based on unfortunate events which happened to a teenage girl in 1962? No.
About three years ago, my new found friend Alison and I on our bike tour spent much of our first day talking about how we’d both like to bivvy, but had always been (made to be) scared to do it. We talked through our fears and how rational they were, or not, and in the end spent a wonderful night bivvying under stars on a beach. It’s been one of the most liberating things I’ve ever done, and of course I have gone on to solo bivvying since then, and love it.
Last summer I camped on the campsite at Fair Rhos. As I pushed by bike in, I clocked two men camped in the field, tent, beers and bikes; I clocked them clocking me, and the radar went on. I pitched a good distance away, chose the orientation of my tent entrance to face 90 degrees (not rude, not with my back to them, but so as to afford some privacy). During the evening and when they walked past, I knew they were looking at me, and after a while, some nods/greetings were exchanged. In terms of radar, I just watched that I didn’t make too much eye contact so as to not attract unwanted attention (Mr Z taught me that many years ago). Did I feel unsafe? No. Would I have wanted to share a bothy with them? Who knows, radar would have said no, rational or otherwise. Did they do anything wrong? No. Had I been there with a female friend, would we have looked over and probably had some wholly inappropriate conversations along the lines of “I don’t think much of yours”? Yes, of course we would. Just saying, goes both ways.
Couple of years ago I was standing on a railway station platform with my bike. Bloke with bike stands on next platform and keeps looking over. Radar clicks once. He disappears, then appears again, this time on my platform. Radar clicks twice. Train arrives, he gets on, then comes over and asks if the seat next to me is free. Radar clicks off the scale. Turns out he’s one of the nicest people I’ve ever met, and this encounter marks the start of my bikepacking journey. Just saying.
This January, Saturday evening about 8 pm in the pitch black, I was on the road just by the Mountain Centre, when a hatchback car comes along. Making all sorts of assumptions about it probably being filled with a group of lads on a bit of a lockdown joyride, my radar goes off big time and I leg it off into the darkness, off road where the car won’t go. Rational, actually. But the biggest risk here had I stayed on the road would have been them running me over because they didn’t see me or were pissed or on drugs. Risk of rape though? Had they been intent on such a thing, would they really have driven to some hilltop in the middle of nowhere? Or, being opportunists, would they have spotted a cyclist in the dark, thought, aha, let’s pull them off the bike, take the helmet off and see if it’s female. Then if it is, peel off seven layers of stinking sweaty lycra/pertex/ fleece etc. and rape it? I’m just not sure that that sort of fear, and yes I felt it, was rational.
My first day bikepacking, evening approaching and I was a bit nervous about my first ever solo bivvy. So I ask two men who I’d met several times on the same event and who were riding about the same speed as me if I could tag along with them. They were perfect gentlemen, to the point of being just a bit unsure – for example they had a massive tarp, I had just the bivvy bag, a massive downpour was forecast to hit, and they were clearly torn between offering me a space under the tarp with them, but were worried about how that might come over. We had a very pleasant evening together, they showed me, and we all laughed about, the text message they sent to their mates at home (and the reply!) which said something like “Brilliant first day of our bikepacking adventure. Currently enjoying a nice glass of wine and the company of a nice young lady we met on the way who is spending the night with us”. It was funny, it made me feel safer, it was quite sweet/touching how they were trying so hard to be gentlemen. But seriously, and now thinking about it, I wouldn’t have wanted them to have felt any more awkward to the point of actually being uncomfortable in that situation.
Mostly really, what I want to say to you men reading this is:
- Please don’t stop being yourselves, don’t stop having a sense of humour, don’t stop being friendly and inviting us along to things, out of some fear of doing or saying the wrong thing.
- Also please let me carry on being friendly. I sometimes worry when I turn up on my own to things that people (who don’t know that I’m happily married but just do a lot of things on my own) might think I’m some sort of predatory bunny boiler.
- FFS do stop and offer me help if you see me by the side of the road with a mechanical, ‘cos I’m useless. If I tell you I’m ok and don’t need help, hopefully goes without saying respect that too.
- Mostly, I’d like people to just see Me, the human being. Anything else is very much secondary.
- Basically, let’s not make things weird between us because we are different sexes/ genders.
Last story, promise – on the question of “equal but not the same”, I find myself drawing on the great school of life that was my 6 years in judo. In my club, we all trained together, male, female, all ages, shapes, sizes and abilities. The worst thing would be the first couple of weeks when new men would join, and they’d be weird about training with a woman. Either not using proper force, or being all embarrassed or apologetic about touching us. They all got the hang of it, and then it was great. You don’t want a big chunk of a bloke using all his physical strength on you and hurt you, of course not, not much fun. You just want them to modify the force they use, but still give you a proper fight. Same as I would as a big chunk woman when training with a 14 year old slip of a girl. Part of being a good judo player, you adjust, you respect, you look after each other. And the man/ woman thing, in judo it’s part and parcel that you regularly end up with a face full of boobs or crotch or in all sorts of weird and wonderful positions. I still look back with the greatest of respect that we did that, and were just kind of professional about it (yes occasionally you’d maybe accidentally grab a handful of tit and have no option but to acknowledge and laugh about it)– men and women doing stuff together and not being weird about it, it is possible. That’s the connection I’m making here.
Sorry about the long ramble, haven’t even mentioned bothies once….
I agree that it is a good thing that we’re having this discussion and thinking about this issue – it’s generally quite a good idea to think IMO, and to have a lively debate. And as one of the few women on here, it’s quite right that I should write something about my take on this. Just my own personal opinion, shaped of course like everyone else’s by my own life experiences, so I will throw in a few anecdotes to illustrate my points. (And sorry, this may be a long one….)
Saturday morning I went for a run. Funnily enough, at some stage a man overtook me, we said “hi” and smiled at each other as he passed. Up until the discussion here, any thoughts about man/ woman, did I hear him come up behind me, at what distance did he make himself known to me etc. would never have occurred to me (I only would’ve registered he was a man insomuch as I’m ok with that, whereas had it been a woman, my competitive side would’ve come out and I’d have been annoyed with myself). A reflection of where I live and run I’m sure, but I think it illustrates the point Stu makes about not creating an issue/ fear (on either part) where there isn’t one.
Yesterday afternoon, coming home with husband and daughter on board, as I get out of the car our (still relatively new) next door neighbour passes with his dog and says to me “I watched you running down that hill the other day. That was quite something. You’re a lovely mover. A real athlete” Now I’m fairly sure he was just trying to pay a compliment, but… he always manages to come across really pervy….Don’t do it Kevin!!
Getting changed: I’ll be honest, in my experience of all things sports and outdoorsy, hostelling etc., I have never ever thought of this in any way threatening. It’s all about context, and in this context, getting changed for a purpose at the side of a road or wherever, it’s just a thing we do. Never experienced anything other than people doing it fairly discreetly and averting eyes at relevant points. If anyone (of either gender) did wander round with wobbly bits exposed for any length of time, now that would be a bit weird. As a woman, when there’s men around, I would also say it’s only fair for us to be discreet about it, so as not to make any men feel uncomfortable. Good job us ladies are born with that ninja skill of donning and doffing bras under our t-shirts.
The radar: Yes, I have it too, I guess most or all of us women have been brought up with is since we were young girls. I don’t generally find it a bother, again a reflection of where I live and my general lifestyle these days (few late nights out in cities etc.). Yes, I agree, we shouldn’t have to have it, everybody (of any gender) should be, and feel, safe whenever or wherever they are. But in the meantime/ real world, it’s just sensible to have a good radar on, like being aware of one’s surroundings, thinking about route taken to walk home etc.. And a good personal safety radar is not just for women, as others have already said. Mr Z’s radar is way more acute than mine, being ex military in the 70s and 80s and ten years in London have taken care of that…. And yes, there is a different aspect to this for us women, i.e. the fear of rape (always remembering there is also male rape). As has been said, fear is not always rational. For me, the challenge here for us women, is to perhaps think about what is being sensible, and what is actually not a very rational fear. And if it’s not rational, maybe try and let it go.
The radar for me is always associated with the story which my mum retells at any such occasion; it is how my cousin came to be, which is as a result of my aunt going away for a camping weekend with some “mates”, only to find herself having been plied with spirits, raped, pregnant and no memory of what happened. To this day, my mum does not think it’s safe for me to go camping, even on camp sites, and she doesn’t know about my recent bivvying exploits. Now, is it rational for me as a 48 year old woman in 2021 to limit my activities based on unfortunate events which happened to a teenage girl in 1962? No.
About three years ago, my new found friend Alison and I on our bike tour spent much of our first day talking about how we’d both like to bivvy, but had always been (made to be) scared to do it. We talked through our fears and how rational they were, or not, and in the end spent a wonderful night bivvying under stars on a beach. It’s been one of the most liberating things I’ve ever done, and of course I have gone on to solo bivvying since then, and love it.
Last summer I camped on the campsite at Fair Rhos. As I pushed by bike in, I clocked two men camped in the field, tent, beers and bikes; I clocked them clocking me, and the radar went on. I pitched a good distance away, chose the orientation of my tent entrance to face 90 degrees (not rude, not with my back to them, but so as to afford some privacy). During the evening and when they walked past, I knew they were looking at me, and after a while, some nods/greetings were exchanged. In terms of radar, I just watched that I didn’t make too much eye contact so as to not attract unwanted attention (Mr Z taught me that many years ago). Did I feel unsafe? No. Would I have wanted to share a bothy with them? Who knows, radar would have said no, rational or otherwise. Did they do anything wrong? No. Had I been there with a female friend, would we have looked over and probably had some wholly inappropriate conversations along the lines of “I don’t think much of yours”? Yes, of course we would. Just saying, goes both ways.
Couple of years ago I was standing on a railway station platform with my bike. Bloke with bike stands on next platform and keeps looking over. Radar clicks once. He disappears, then appears again, this time on my platform. Radar clicks twice. Train arrives, he gets on, then comes over and asks if the seat next to me is free. Radar clicks off the scale. Turns out he’s one of the nicest people I’ve ever met, and this encounter marks the start of my bikepacking journey. Just saying.
This January, Saturday evening about 8 pm in the pitch black, I was on the road just by the Mountain Centre, when a hatchback car comes along. Making all sorts of assumptions about it probably being filled with a group of lads on a bit of a lockdown joyride, my radar goes off big time and I leg it off into the darkness, off road where the car won’t go. Rational, actually. But the biggest risk here had I stayed on the road would have been them running me over because they didn’t see me or were pissed or on drugs. Risk of rape though? Had they been intent on such a thing, would they really have driven to some hilltop in the middle of nowhere? Or, being opportunists, would they have spotted a cyclist in the dark, thought, aha, let’s pull them off the bike, take the helmet off and see if it’s female. Then if it is, peel off seven layers of stinking sweaty lycra/pertex/ fleece etc. and rape it? I’m just not sure that that sort of fear, and yes I felt it, was rational.
My first day bikepacking, evening approaching and I was a bit nervous about my first ever solo bivvy. So I ask two men who I’d met several times on the same event and who were riding about the same speed as me if I could tag along with them. They were perfect gentlemen, to the point of being just a bit unsure – for example they had a massive tarp, I had just the bivvy bag, a massive downpour was forecast to hit, and they were clearly torn between offering me a space under the tarp with them, but were worried about how that might come over. We had a very pleasant evening together, they showed me, and we all laughed about, the text message they sent to their mates at home (and the reply!) which said something like “Brilliant first day of our bikepacking adventure. Currently enjoying a nice glass of wine and the company of a nice young lady we met on the way who is spending the night with us”. It was funny, it made me feel safer, it was quite sweet/touching how they were trying so hard to be gentlemen. But seriously, and now thinking about it, I wouldn’t have wanted them to have felt any more awkward to the point of actually being uncomfortable in that situation.
Mostly really, what I want to say to you men reading this is:
- Please don’t stop being yourselves, don’t stop having a sense of humour, don’t stop being friendly and inviting us along to things, out of some fear of doing or saying the wrong thing.
- Also please let me carry on being friendly. I sometimes worry when I turn up on my own to things that people (who don’t know that I’m happily married but just do a lot of things on my own) might think I’m some sort of predatory bunny boiler.
- FFS do stop and offer me help if you see me by the side of the road with a mechanical, ‘cos I’m useless. If I tell you I’m ok and don’t need help, hopefully goes without saying respect that too.
- Mostly, I’d like people to just see Me, the human being. Anything else is very much secondary.
- Basically, let’s not make things weird between us because we are different sexes/ genders.
Last story, promise – on the question of “equal but not the same”, I find myself drawing on the great school of life that was my 6 years in judo. In my club, we all trained together, male, female, all ages, shapes, sizes and abilities. The worst thing would be the first couple of weeks when new men would join, and they’d be weird about training with a woman. Either not using proper force, or being all embarrassed or apologetic about touching us. They all got the hang of it, and then it was great. You don’t want a big chunk of a bloke using all his physical strength on you and hurt you, of course not, not much fun. You just want them to modify the force they use, but still give you a proper fight. Same as I would as a big chunk woman when training with a 14 year old slip of a girl. Part of being a good judo player, you adjust, you respect, you look after each other. And the man/ woman thing, in judo it’s part and parcel that you regularly end up with a face full of boobs or crotch or in all sorts of weird and wonderful positions. I still look back with the greatest of respect that we did that, and were just kind of professional about it (yes occasionally you’d maybe accidentally grab a handful of tit and have no option but to acknowledge and laugh about it)– men and women doing stuff together and not being weird about it, it is possible. That’s the connection I’m making here.
Sorry about the long ramble, haven’t even mentioned bothies once….
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ScotRoutes
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Re: Topical Article By A Woman Who Bothies Alone
On the "getting changed" thing, it has to be said that being involved in mixed-sex watersports there's a certain knack of bashfullness and brazenness that one develops when getting changed in car parks/roadsides and so on.
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RIP
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Re: Topical Article By A Woman Who Bothies Alone
Not going to add anything as this thread is ticking along fine anyway and is one of the best on Here at the moment. But, I for one would like to just simply thank the women who have taken time to put comments and thoughts out here (eg Verena that was a fantastic post... and obv Bridget...). Without you around This Place would be far the poorer for it and less interesting/nuanced. Compliments to y'all 
. Of course by saying this I've either patronisingly compounded the feeling of differences or empathically narrowed them 
.
. Of course by saying this I've either patronisingly compounded the feeling of differences or empathically narrowed them ."My God, Ponsonby, I'm two-thirds of the way to the grave and what have I done?" - RIP
The sign outside the asylum is the wrong way round.....
"At least you got some stories" - James Acaster
The sign outside the asylum is the wrong way round.....
"At least you got some stories" - James Acaster
Re: Topical Article By A Woman Who Bothies Alone
Thanks Verena, that input sums up, hopefully, the thinking of most outdoor users.Please don’t stop being yourselves, don’t stop having a sense of humour, don’t stop being friendly and inviting us along to things, out of some fear of doing or saying the wrong thing.
- Also please let me carry on being friendly. I sometimes worry when I turn up on my own to things that people (who don’t know that I’m happily married but just do a lot of things on my own) might think I’m some sort of predatory bunny boiler.
- FFS do stop and offer me help if you see me by the side of the road with a mechanical, ‘cos I’m useless. If I tell you I’m ok and don’t need help, hopefully goes without saying respect that too.
- Mostly, I’d like people to just see Me, the human being. Anything else is very much secondary.
- Basically, let’s not make things weird between us because we are different sexes/ genders.
People who are perpetually hyper offended at gendery stuff are thankfully confined mainly to the internet, often looking for clicks 'n' likes.
Worrying about holding a door or offering help isn't really an issue in day to day life.
Anytime I've offered help in passing to a fellow biker prodding an upside down bike has been met with a cheery no thanks, I'm fine, or a yes please, I've no idea what I'm doing.
The no idea what I'm doing reply could come from a woman struggling with a chainsucky kids bike, or a hardcore MTBer man like my mate Rich who has ridden all over Europe but remains mechanically clueless.
Gender has nothing to do with it, both the above have gladly accepted my help.
What is true though is that women do go through life modifying behavior due to fear. That's the real problem which has no easy answers.
Villifying men in general is not the answer. I have no idea what is...
I honestly feel sorry for the current teens and twenties. A world lived in fear of some cheeky flirtation must be awfully dull.
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Dave Barter
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Re: Topical Article By A Woman Who Bothies Alone
I asked my wife and daughter this question and the consensus was that we should keep talking and talking and talking about it. Otherwise it just becomes another short term polarisation that goes away when the next outrage hits the headlinesI have no idea what is...
Elite keyboard warrior, DNF'er, Swearer
Re: Topical Article By A Woman Who Bothies Alone
I asked my 21 year old daughter about the fear thing. She had no idea what I was talking about at first. Then she said, it's easy, everyone needs to learn a martial art/self defence. And if anyone tries anything I'll beat the cr@p out of them.
I reckon our work as parents is done here
I reckon our work as parents is done here
Re: Topical Article By A Woman Who Bothies Alone
Interesting how somemen on bikes checking out someone else on a bike caused you some concern. Shows you what mess society is and what [ some] men have created of the world.
Personally on a campsite, or anywhere for that matter* i would strike up a conversation with anyone on a bike - well as long as the bike was not a BSO as I do have some standards.
* One was at festival and there was a lovely TI tripster which i was eyeballing. The owner took this as intent to steal-quick chat about bikes later and this fear had gone- perhaps we all just fear strangers - all be it for very different reasons
Personally on a campsite, or anywhere for that matter* i would strike up a conversation with anyone on a bike - well as long as the bike was not a BSO as I do have some standards.
* One was at festival and there was a lovely TI tripster which i was eyeballing. The owner took this as intent to steal-quick chat about bikes later and this fear had gone- perhaps we all just fear strangers - all be it for very different reasons
Re: Topical Article By A Woman Who Bothies Alone
O gawd, I don't even want to say this, I'll make it all worse and start a whole new thingLazarus wrote: ↑Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:16 pm Interesting how somemen on bikes checking out someone else on a bike caused you some concern. Shows you what mess society is and what [ some] men have created of the world.
Personally on a campsite, or anywhere for that matter* i would strike up a conversation with anyone on a bike
I should have said, they were with motorbikes. I have nothing at all against motorbikes or people who ride them. It just wasn't the go over and have a chat kind of vibe. But yes had they been bike bikes, especially with bags on, I would have been much more likely to have struck up a conversation.
Re: Topical Article By A Woman Who Bothies Alone
I dont think it will restart but it just shows the decision making process for women is very different for men as the percieved threat is very different
I am not sure i will do anything different going forward other than be more aware of how the woman may feel if she is solo
I am not sure i will do anything different going forward other than be more aware of how the woman may feel if she is solo
Re: Topical Article By A Woman Who Bothies Alone
When I was 17-18 or so and walking to my weekend job at 5:30-6 in the morning in the dark, I was about 20' behind a woman in a business suit, wheeling a suitcase obviously heading to the station at the end of the road when I realised that I was going to be late for work so just burst in to a run. The woman promptly gave a squeal and jumped a foot, I carried on past another 20', turned and stammered out an apology for scaring her and then carried on running to work. That's just stuck with me all these years so I do find myself crossing the road, if there's room, if I'm coming up on a solo woman in the dark, or making sure my keys are jangling or something so I'm not being even inadvertently stealthy.