Topical Article By A Woman Who Bothies Alone

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Re: Topical Article By A Woman Who Bothies Alone

Post by fatbikephil »

I think its more a problem for women than men. As a Man you may get grief if you go to a bothy that is easily accessible and therefore more likely to meet some tw*ts but not say in Shielin of Mark. Maybe a women would feel less safe in Shielin of Mark if another male appeared but more safe in a more accessible bothy as getting help would be easier in the event of an emergency??

Personally I adopt the attitude of "well I'm not a nutter so I will use this bothy even though there is only one other person in it and it happens to be a women." Ultimately I treat everyone the same. I'll stop to help anyone I find trying to fix a bike or in any other difficulties. There isn't a problem with this and I assume people will treat this in the spirit its meant. I.e. I'm helping you, not chatting you up. If a bothy is occupied I have a tactic of going in, stating to other occupants that I'm just here to make tea and then press on. If they turn out to be OK then I'll say that I now can't be arsed going further so will stay. I once turned up at Char bothy only to find it full of teenage girls. Resisting the urge to run away (it was chucking it down) I greeted them politely and hightailed it to the back room to cook food. Fortunately they were a D of E group who had to camp.....
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Re: Topical Article By A Woman Who Bothies Alone

Post by ScotRoutes »

I really don't think it's that hard.

One thing I'd not considered too much previously were to make yourself known early on, at a decent distance. The trailside help one is a good example. Less easy in Caths running scenario though. If I'm catching up to a woman runner should I hang back so she doesn't think I'm chasing her, run past as quick as possible and risk surprising her when she hears me panting over her shoulder, or catch up at my own pace but call out well in advance? I reckon the latter.
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Re: Topical Article By A Woman Who Bothies Alone

Post by JackT »

sean_iow wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 12:59 pm
Bearbonesnorm wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 12:40 pm Honestly, I'm beginning to feel like I've no idea how to behave.
It does seem to be it's getting harder to know what to do.

On the CL I saw 2 women at the side of the track with an upside down bike. I stopped and asked if they were ok? Not because they were women but because they were mountain bikers with an obvious mechanical.

It turns out they had snapped a chain and didn't know how to fix it, not because they were women but because they'd never snapped a chain before.

I fixed it for them whilst at the same time sort if explaining how to do it and advised they get some further instruction and practice just in case.

I consider this to be the right thing to do but recent things I've read seem to suggest that me asking if they were ok is me implying they don't know what they are doing because they are women? So am I now supposed to just ride past and leave them with a long walk out?
Is this really so difficult?

My instinct, on the basis of "treat others how you would like to be treated yourself", is that one of these two approaches is decent, comradely and respectful behaviour, the other isn't.

"Hi there, is everything alright? Do you have what you need to fix this? I've got some tools with me if you need anything "

"Mornin' laydeez, well well well what do we have here then? Looks like you pair of lovelies are a bit out of your depth, eh? Reckon you need a proper mechanic to fix this for you, am I right? So step aside, and while you're about it, be a luv and get a brew on, eh?"
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Re: Topical Article By A Woman Who Bothies Alone

Post by ScotRoutes »

Three of us blokes were out riding last week and there were two ladies at the side of the trail fixing something. I just asked if they had everything they needed, they said yes and we rode on past. I wouldn't have done any different if they'd been men. However, as above, I did give them a heads-up when we were still some distance away.
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Re: Topical Article By A Woman Who Bothies Alone

Post by ScotRoutes »

Oh - FWIW - men have a "radar" too. I'm sure we've all made choices based on other folks behaviours, actual or perceived.

Try walking through an English town late at night while wearing a kilt to experience the full fange of banter, mild sexual assault and risk of a stabbing 😅
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Re: Topical Article By A Woman Who Bothies Alone

Post by redefined_cycles »

ScotRoutes wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:09 pm I really don't think it's that hard.

One thing I'd not considered too much previously were to make yourself known early on, at a decent distance. The trailside help one is a good example. Less easy in Caths running scenario though. If I'm catching up to a woman runner should I hang back so she doesn't think I'm chasing her, run past as quick as possible and risk surprising her when she hears me panting over her shoulder, or catch up at my own pace but call out well in advance? I reckon the latter.
I agree (respectfully)... I don't think it's that hard either. Like what Sean did, I doubt they'd have had a problem (nor would he have been using derogatory/condescending comments).

Part of my religion means (muzlamic, as what Tommy Robs buddy described but I believe he got 2 words mixed up and his wores were crossed already from too much BBC and The Sun) I need to guard my gaze for/from those of the opposite sex. That doesn't stop me from being respectful and polite and ensuring everything/everyone is ok...
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Re: Topical Article By A Woman Who Bothies Alone

Post by Dave Barter »

JackT wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:12 pm
sean_iow wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 12:59 pm
Bearbonesnorm wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 12:40 pm Honestly, I'm beginning to feel like I've no idea how to behave.
It does seem to be it's getting harder to know what to do.

On the CL I saw 2 women at the side of the track with an upside down bike. I stopped and asked if they were ok? Not because they were women but because they were mountain bikers with an obvious mechanical.

It turns out they had snapped a chain and didn't know how to fix it, not because they were women but because they'd never snapped a chain before.

I fixed it for them whilst at the same time sort if explaining how to do it and advised they get some further instruction and practice just in case.

I consider this to be the right thing to do but recent things I've read seem to suggest that me asking if they were ok is me implying they don't know what they are doing because they are women? So am I now supposed to just ride past and leave them with a long walk out?
Is this really so difficult?

My instinct, on the basis of "treat others how you would like to be treated yourself", is that one of these two approaches is decent, comradely and respectful behaviour, the other isn't.

"Hi there, is everything alright? Do you have what you need to fix this? I've got some tools with me if you need anything "

"Mornin' laydeez, well well well what do we have here then? Looks like you pair of lovelies are a bit out of your depth, eh? Reckon you need a proper mechanic to fix this for you, am I right? So step aside, and while you're about it, be a luv and get a brew on, eh?"
I think the point Sean makes is more nuanced than that. It is the fact that the act of offering help can be seen to be demeaning when crossing the gender divide. I've heard this said by women in my road club when help has been offered to fix a puncture. They've taken the assumption is was offered because they were female. I think this is what Sean is trying to say and your first option has potential to cause offence
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Re: Topical Article By A Woman Who Bothies Alone

Post by Dave Barter »

Just out of interest I flicked through the behaviour and etiquette section of the Book of the Bothy and it is a shame Phoebe did not take the chance to raise these issues then as there is no mention at all. Would potentially have reached more of the problem audience
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Re: Topical Article By A Woman Who Bothies Alone

Post by Borderer »

I didn't read all of your comments on here cos I got a bit pissed off with some of them. Some of you are really trying to understand it and for that I thank you - but many of you really don't get it.

You are all a lovely bunch of men. I wouldn't be in here if you weren't. But you simply don't get what this woman is talking about - I'm sorry, but as men you just can't - any more than I can truly understand racism as a white person. To take that analogy further - if I were to say that I didn't think racism was a problem because I hadn't experienced it would you understand why I get very pissed off at men trivialising or dismissing this issue? Please listen and learn and also whatever you do - please don't equate men's experiences with women's.

What this woman is talking about is the constant background noise in a woman's head - the continual risk assessment as to whether her situation is safe or not. You have no idea how exhausting that is - and also how absolutely necessary. The other night I was walking through an area of my town. It's quiet and residential and pretty safe. I thought about recent events and consciously turned off the background vigilance going on in my head, and wow, it felt amazing. Suddenly I was enjoying my walk, rather than just trying to get safely home. I thought to myself that this is how men largely experience the world and I have to admit that I felt jealous.

I am on several FB groups for female cyclists/bikepackers/cycle tourists and so on. The recurrent theme in these is the continual posts from women who want to try these things but are afraid of putting themselves in danger. They ask for tips and advice to stay safe and are also looking for other women to boost their confidence to the point that they will actually feel able do the thing they really want to do - go out into the wilds and travel.

Please don't trivialise or dismiss this issue. It is a major barrier to women getting out in the wilds and enjoying them and we all know how wonderful and life-affirming that can be. Trust me - the article hasn't created a problem - it is addressing one that has existed for a long time. This sort of discussion is long overdue.
Last edited by Borderer on Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Topical Article By A Woman Who Bothies Alone

Post by Chew »

ScotRoutes wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:09 pm One thing I'd not considered too much previously were to make yourself known early on, at a decent distance. The trailside help one is a good example. Less easy in Caths running scenario though. If I'm catching up to a woman runner should I hang back so she doesn't think I'm chasing her, run past as quick as possible and risk surprising her when she hears me panting over her shoulder, or catch up at my own pace but call out well in advance? I reckon the latter.
But why would you treat different genders in different ways?

Surely this reinforces the stereotype that men are dangerous?
Why not treat everybody the same?
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Re: Topical Article By A Woman Who Bothies Alone

Post by NewRetroTom »

For me the article is missing a bit of nuance.

For example "Yet as I stand and look at the mountain shelter I’m headed to, a small part of me... knows that no matter what I overcome to make it there, once inside the four walls, not all the potential hazards will be left at the door. And the reason? Because I am a woman."

Phoebe is saying that it's a categorical difference rather than one of degree which in my opinion is false.

I think everyone has some apprehension arriving alone at a bothy with unknown residents. There are certain risks present for everyone, albeit there are some risks which females are more exposed to.

I'm pretty sure that the number of people who suffer physical or sexual violence from strangers in bothies is vanishingly small. If Phoebe thought this was a significant risk she would not have written a book advocating bothy use.

The realistic risk is that there may be some other people you end up sharing the bothy with who make life unpleasant for you. This may be because they are argumentative or drunk or lecherous. This kind of deplorable behaviour affects everyone, but females are more likely to experience certain obnoxious aspects of it.

The reality is that very few solo females use bothies and that's a shame, but I don't think the reasons are particularly down to anything that specifically happens in bothies but more to society-wide reasons. If you compare the number of males who go travelling solo to females who do that I imagine you would probably find it matches quite closely to the male/female solo bothy user ratio.
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Re: Topical Article By A Woman Who Bothies Alone

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Dave Barter wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:34 pm
I think the point Sean makes is more nuanced than that. It is the fact that the act of offering help can be seen to be demeaning when crossing the gender divide. I've heard this said by women in my road club when help has been offered to fix a puncture. They've taken the assumption is was offered because they were female. I think this is what Sean is trying to say and your first option has potential to cause offence
I'd really like to hear from women on this one. Are they really saying ANY offer of ANY help is unwelcome, or if it's more about the way the offer of help is made.

I've been on audaxes and mass rides where I've had a flat or a mechanical and *every rider* has stopped or slowed down to ask if I am OK. After about a dozen, it starts to grate, and reassuring each one that I am in fact OK takes more time than sorting the problem. But they don't know that. So I take it all in the spirit in which it was intended. I can imagine that if I were a woman and all the people offering help were men, I might find it more irritating - are they asking me because they think I'm incompetent? Hmmff.

Then again, I have been in situations where I have genuinely needed the help of another rider. And being a man I have no reservation about flagging a passing rider down to ask for help. I guess I might not flag down a woman as it might not be welcome. I don't know, a lot depends on location and context doesn't it?

I don't mean to oversimplify but most of us on here have a reasonably sound internal idea of what's OK and what's not. And if we find out that we've offended someone inadvertently, the correct response is to go off in a huff grumbling about 'political correctness gone mad' but to treat it as a learning experience, take it into account next time around and try to do better.
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Re: Topical Article By A Woman Who Bothies Alone

Post by Dave Barter »

Just to take the heat out of the thread a little. Phoebe postfixed her article with this:-
be willing to talk about this issue (rather than groan) and be part of the discussion
Which is exactly what we are doing here. If we all nodded and said "I agree". It's not a discussion.
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Re: Topical Article By A Woman Who Bothies Alone

Post by ScotRoutes »

Chew wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:43 pm But why would you treat different genders in different ways?

Surely this reinforces the stereotype that men are dangerous?
Why not treat everybody the same?
See the post above yours.
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Re: Topical Article By A Woman Who Bothies Alone

Post by whitestone »

Bridget, it's not so much that we men don't get it, we can't get it.

As a white man it's simply not possible for me to understand what it's like to be female or black (or perhaps better - non-white) in any given situation. The nearest I've been to that internal disquiet is when I've been in slightly dodgy urban areas but I can't say with any certainty if it's similar and it's certainly not "a constant background noise" whenever I'm out and about.

I'll offer to help anyone in trouble, gender or race or whatever simply don't come into it. It's a simple: "You OK? Need any help?" About as non-judgemental as I can make it. The last time someone actually said they wanted help was a bloke who couldn't pump up his tyre - turned out he didn't know you had to unscrew the valve core to let air in! The last time I didn't help someone was Jenny Graham when she was struggling to get her bike over a gate on the HT550! We'd been riding together and chatting and she'd explicitly said she didn't want help as it was an individual effort slightly unusual scenario though.

As above: treat others like you'd like to be treated yourself.
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Re: Topical Article By A Woman Who Bothies Alone

Post by Borderer »

whitestone wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 2:14 pm Bridget, it's not so much that we men don't get it, we can't get it.
Exactly. That's what I was trying to say. I really wish men would stop having an opinion on this and instead just listen and learn.

Not aimed at you or anyone in particular Whitestone.
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Re: Topical Article By A Woman Who Bothies Alone

Post by Bearbonesnorm »

Please don't trivialise or dismiss this issue. It is a major barrier to women getting out in the wilds and enjoying them and we all know how wonderful and life-affirming that can be. Trust me - the article hasn't created a problem - it is addressing one that has existed for a long time. This sort of discussion is long overdue.
I really don't believe that anyone is making light of the issue but I do believe that an article like this will raise even more of a barrier to "women getting out into the wilds and enjoying them". Is it simply not propagating an already present underlying fear?

I've just had a conversation with Dee about this and she's mostly pissed off with the fact that the article implies that 50% of the population are in some way vulnerable and must be protected. :wink:
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Re: Topical Article By A Woman Who Bothies Alone

Post by Borderer »

Stu, please. That's really not helpful.
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Re: Topical Article By A Woman Who Bothies Alone

Post by BordersSteve »

Really feel the "I just don't how to behave anymore" line is facetious. The majority of us know how to behave and the majority of us do behave in that way. But, there is a significant minority who either don't, or choose not to.

The only thing that has changed is women are increasingly refusing to accept the behaviour they receive from those in the don't category. The values/behaviours haven't changed. Don't be leery, inappropriate, patronising. Be respectful. How can this cause confusion?

"I don't know if I can even hold a door open" is even worse. Perhaps, at best, there exists a one-liner sometime, somewhere, from a radical feminist challenging men holding open doors. You can't use this to avoid having to assess your behaviour and approach to how you interact with women in the face of societal wide uproar from women as to their experience with men.

If your first reaction to being challenged is to use these defences instead of sitting down and genuinely thinking about you and your behaviour, you should consider whether this suggests you have a problem.

It feels reasonable to me to genuinely look at ourselves and how we interact with women given the extent and scale of the broad based fear being expressed by them. We all seem to think we're innocent, but it has to be some of us. It has to be a lot of us. Why can't we just listen to their side and try to do better, without pulling up lazy defences like whether we can still hold doors open?
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Re: Topical Article By A Woman Who Bothies Alone

Post by directdrive »

BordersSteve wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 2:33 pm Really feel the "I just don't how to behave anymore" line is facetious. The majority of us know how to behave and the majority of us do behave in that way. But, there is a significant minority who either don't, or choose not to.

The only thing that has changed is women are increasingly refusing to accept the behaviour they receive from those in the don't category. The values/behaviours haven't changed. Don't be leery, inappropriate, patronising. Be respectful. How can this cause confusion?

"I don't know if I can even hold a door open" is even worse. Perhaps, at best, there exists a one-liner sometime, somewhere, from a radical feminist challenging men holding open doors. You can't use this to avoid having to assess your behaviour and approach to how you interact with women in the face of societal wide uproar from women as to their experience with men.

If your first reaction to being challenged is to use these defences instead of sitting down and genuinely thinking about you and your behaviour, you should consider whether this suggests you have a problem.

It feels reasonable to me to genuinely look at ourselves and how we interact with women given the extent and scale of the broad based fear being expressed by them. We all seem to think we're innocent, but it has to be some of us. It has to be a lot of us. Why can't we just listen to their side and try to do better, without pulling up lazy defences like whether we can still hold doors open?
100%. Had to stop myself from replying angrily to some earlier comments so thank you for putting this well (also Borderer above, a vital intervention).

Boggles my mind that so many other men go straight to the defensive on this, or can't/won't admit that there are gendered dimensions to issues like this. If that's your first impulse then yeah, that is something that requires attention.

If anyone here's takeaway from this is that 'bad behaviour in the outdoors affects men and women equally', then I'm sorry, you are in cloud cuckoo land.

This thread shows the extent of self-reflection that a lot of us have to still do. That said, some of the replies from other men have been heartening in their level of awareness.
Last edited by directdrive on Fri Mar 19, 2021 2:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Topical Article By A Woman Who Bothies Alone

Post by Bearbonesnorm »

Stu, please. That's really not helpful.
If you mean the 'Dee' bit then why not? You've already excluded the male populace from having any opinion, whereas, Dee's a woman who's done plenty of travelling solo and spent many years within traditionally male environments. I figured her opinion was valid.
without pulling up lazy defences like whether we can still hold doors open?
Sorry, it really wasn't meant to be a lazy defence or any defence at all because that would imply that I believe I'm guilty of something. Personally, I try and treat everyone in the same way and that is a way that I'd like to be treated by others. I was simply making the point that I'm becoming unsure as to whether that is enough.
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Re: Topical Article By A Woman Who Bothies Alone

Post by ScotRoutes »

Bearbonesnorm wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 2:44 pm
Stu, please. That's really not helpful.
without pulling up lazy defences like whether we can still hold doors open?
Sorry, it really wasn't meant to be a lazy defence or any defence at all because that would imply that I believe I'm guilty of something. Personally, I try and treat everyone in the same way and that is a way that I'd like to be treated by others. I was simply making the point that I'm becoming unsure as to whether that is enough.
That's a fair point Stu. I'm sure (most of) us fellas would be happy to abide by the rules if only someone would make the rules clear to us. Phoebes article does give some ideas.
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Re: Topical Article By A Woman Who Bothies Alone

Post by lune ranger »

Treating people equally doesn’t necessarily mean treating them the same.

Treating people how you want to be treated isn’t treating them equally either.
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Re: Topical Article By A Woman Who Bothies Alone

Post by Chew »

lune ranger wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 2:53 pm Treating people equally doesn’t necessarily mean treating them the same.

Treating people how you want to be treated isn’t treating them equally either.
How do you treat them then :???:
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Re: Topical Article By A Woman Who Bothies Alone

Post by lune ranger »

How they wish to be treated... just start listening
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