Topical Article By A Woman Who Bothies Alone

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redefined_cycles
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Re: Topical Article By A Woman Who Bothies Alone

Post by redefined_cycles »

Good for her and thanks for writing it (and sharing Ray)...
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fatbikephil
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Re: Topical Article By A Woman Who Bothies Alone

Post by fatbikephil »

Interesting stuff. I've met (and known) a few blokes who would have no compunction whatsoever against chatting up a lone female entering a bothy and consider it their 'right'. Not sure how you can influence such people to change their behaviour (other than punching them out) so I suspect that this isn't a problem that will be easy to solve....
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trogladytes
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Re: Topical Article By A Woman Who Bothies Alone

Post by trogladytes »

A really good article and the advice is spot on, sometimes all that's needed to turn a situation around is for one of the men present to express that the 'banter' isn't appropriate.
For the future it's important that we educate our boys and young men too.
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Re: Topical Article By A Woman Who Bothies Alone

Post by Hamish »

Good article - but in some ways I think she probably diplomatically understates the issue. You meet few lone women in bothies and men are probably the main reason for this. Even some of the comments in bothy books indicate a pretty misogynistic tendency in some male users so I am not sure that even an empty bothy feels like safe and welcoming place.
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Verena
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Re: Topical Article By A Woman Who Bothies Alone

Post by Verena »

Never tried bothying, and after a previous discussion on here, I don't fancy it on my own, for exactly these reasons.
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Re: Topical Article By A Woman Who Bothies Alone

Post by slarge »

That’s a great article. I still find it sad that it needs to be written though (I think that’s more a criticism of the “aggressor” than the author. (Aggressor might be too strong a word, I couldn’t think of the correct one)
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Re: Topical Article By A Woman Who Bothies Alone

Post by Hamish »

Hmmm, that discussion on the Facebook is pretty depressing.
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Re: Topical Article By A Woman Who Bothies Alone

Post by Bearbonesnorm »

I've thought long and hard about this and there's a part of me that knows I'll likely get some flak but please remember that (a) i agree with all that's written and (b) I'm looking at this specific topic, not at the whole issue throughout society.

Steve says he finds it sad that the article needed writing. I too wondered that but also whether it really needed to be written at all or whether it's simply an attempt by OM to publish something (as Ray says in his title) topical? I know many people regardless of sex who find bothies intimidating, whether they're empty or not. I've certainly left bothies rather than spend the night due to the other occupants. Yet, the hills remain a very safe place - I'd have to check with the MBA but has there ever been a report of sexual assault by a stranger taking place in a bothy? I'm not saying it couldn't happen because quite obviously it could but an article like this almost seems to do more harm than good by the way it drives peoples fear. Personally, I find 95% of the people I meet to be good, genuine folk. The remaining 5% are very unlikely to change their behaviour or thought process because of an article on OM. Yet, those who do read it (of either sex) are left that little bit more paranoid, uneasy and fearful. As V says, she's not bothied before but this article has now sealed the deal.
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Re: Topical Article By A Woman Who Bothies Alone

Post by jameso »

^ Topical is a good time to raise points like this as they relate to other areas ie bothies, I suppose. I read it as an example of the problem put into a context that suits getting the message out more widely ie on the OM site. I see what you mean though and maybe these topics need to move from topical to underlying or more common discussions generally.

I think it is sad it needs saying and like many issues along these lines it needs saying until some get it through their thick head, others stop letting it pass and the way society deals with it changes. This all came up after Harvey Weinstein was outed as a predator and before that I hadn't realised the 'radar' she mentioned was a totally normal thing.
I'd have to check with the MBA but has there ever been a report of sexual assault by a stranger taking place in a bothy?
Shockingly it seems the ratios of assaults to reports to investigations to convictions is all so out of line I'm not sure that would be indicative.
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Re: Topical Article By A Woman Who Bothies Alone

Post by ScotRoutes »

I reckon the "typical" PM reader is male. If the article helps draw attention to the subject and assists the readers in adopting behaviours that makes bothies more welcoming for women then it'll have had the desired affect.

Fear is seldom rational. I've yet to discover a mad axe murderer when I'm out and about at night but that doesn't stop many other folk from being scared of the experience.
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Re: Topical Article By A Woman Who Bothies Alone

Post by fatbikephil »

I suspect that the main problem is bawbags rather than psychopaths as there are many of the former but the latter are very rare. So its probably not necessarily a fear of being murdered that affects most people / women but the fear and disgust of having to fend off the unwanted attentions (physical or verbal) of another loser.

And to add a typical piece of BB flippancy to the discussion:-
A women driving a car alone picks up a male hitchhiker. After a while the guy asks if the women isn't concerned she might have picked up a mad axe wielding nutter.
"No", she says "As there is no chance of their being two psychopaths in one car"

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JackT
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Re: Topical Article By A Woman Who Bothies Alone

Post by JackT »

As others have said, a good article and a good time to have these discussions (is there a bad time to look out for the welfare of others??)

It may be that there's never been a sexual assault or case of sexual harassment in a bothy, or that there have been but they're really, really rare. But that misses the point that this kind of inappropriate behaviour that stops short of physical assault may is still incredibly unpleasant to experience. Aside from the fact that nobody should have to put up with it in the first place, at the moment when it's happening, the victim doesn't know that it's not going to escalate into a physical situation.

It's a bit like road danger. We know that it's quite rare to be knocked off our bikes by a car. But close passes (whether careless or deliberate) are much more common - I suspect we've all had them. These can still really shake you up, even though you've not suffered a scratch. They can ruin a ride or put you off riding for a time.

Old school highways engineers will sometimes say, there's no need to put in a bike lane on this big fast road because no cyclist has ever been hit here. The fact that nobody's been hit isn't evidence that the road is safe to cycle on, if the reason is that cyclists have decided not to ride there because it feels so dangerous. The idea of 'subjective safety' is an important factor in whether people choose to ride a bike (or sleep in a bothy). It's not enough to be safe in statistical terms, you need to feel safe. And when some twit is chatting you up, doing sexist bants, stripping off, or invading personal space, this is a very bad experience for any woman, who will not only be rightly narked off by such inappropriate behaviour, but will also not be feeling safe as, in that moment, she can't know for certain that it's not going to escalate.

The point about men needing to be aware of how it feels on the other side and be prepared to step in if a friend / companion is behaving badly is well made. It's a bit like how social pressure against drink driving is probably as important in the real world as police enforcement.
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Re: Topical Article By A Woman Who Bothies Alone

Post by Chew »

JackT wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 11:20 amThe point about men needing to be aware of how it feels on the other side and be prepared to step in if a friend / companion is behaving badly is well made.
I'd like to think that everyone on here is already doing this.


Its an important discussion to have, but its seems like its a society wide issue, rather than one relating to just bothies.
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Re: Topical Article By A Woman Who Bothies Alone

Post by sean_iow »

Whilst I fully support what Phoebee is saying and that the behavior she is talking abut is unacceptable I just have to say

Woman writes book about bothies encouraging use by people not brought up/familiar with the ethics of bothy use and acceptable behavior
Woman visits bothy to find other users behave in unacceptable way
Woman writes article about unacceptable behavior in bothies

I wouldn't stay at a bothy on my own, even as a man. I've ridden past too many in the daytime when the occupants are sat outside smoking weed and drinking larger during the middle of the day. Once their existence was made public for all to find/use the standards of behavior of users was always going to go down hill. The ones I've passed have become free accommodation for parties away from the eyes of the law.

And before anyone says I'm being elitist and they are for everyone to use, just a look at the destruction of the countryside last year by the 'general public' who couldn't go to Spain and get drunk for a week.
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Re: Topical Article By A Woman Who Bothies Alone

Post by Chew »

sean_iow wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 11:38 amWoman writes book about bothies encouraging use by people not brought up/familiar with the ethics of bothy use and acceptable behavior
Woman visits bothy to find other users behave in unacceptable way
Woman writes article about unacceptable behavior in bothies
The same thoughts crossed my mind.
ScotRoutes
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Re: Topical Article By A Woman Who Bothies Alone

Post by ScotRoutes »

OTOH most of the overtly "laddish" behaviour that has put many of us off bothying has been going on for decades. Diluting that with other voices could be a good thing for everyone.
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Re: Topical Article By A Woman Who Bothies Alone

Post by Cath »

Hmm - I'm wary of bothies/bus shelters/ditches in well trodden places but less so in out of the way places, especially in inclement weather. If taking part in an event I'm less wary, as (although I'm usually last :grin: )as there are like minded people around who look out for you.

Generally I feel safe on a bike (apart from other road users)but running is a different matter - not sure if this is because I am in busier places or it is something I am not used to or the lack of the bike as a defensive weapon. In my day to day life I implement radar - its been instilled from an early age and is subconscious now - I am sure men do this in certain areas as well.

Slightly off topic but one thing which has sat awkwardly in this is a petition which has been set up to make strava beacon free for women. I don't know why, but think this is the feeling that its pushing concerns away for someone else to deal with rather than accepting that it is for us all to look out for.
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Re: Topical Article By A Woman Who Bothies Alone

Post by Bearbonesnorm »

Exactly the same points crossed my mind too Sean.
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Re: Topical Article By A Woman Who Bothies Alone

Post by Dave Barter »

I'm scared of posting this as it is open to misinterpretation but I want to state how the article made me feel.

Firstly I empathised with her fear of the unknown in entering a bothy solo. I feel this too but not from the perspective of a woman as I never can.

But it made me not ever want to go into a bothy again because I am a man. The reason is that I may encounter a solo woman and make her feel uncomfortable. The counter to that is that if I behaved properly that would never happen, but I'm scared I might make a mistake or say the wrong thing. I'm naturally sarcastic and usually wiped out by the time I get there and maybe not thinking as straight as I should. Not that I'd start being leery, maybe just a bit weird. I feel the author gave me a list of rules as a man to abide by on entry and I agree with all of them. I know there is a balance to be redressed but somehow feel labelling an entire gender as the agressor is going to trigger a certain resentment as it did in me. The article could have been written entirely gender neutrally and focused on behaviours it would be just as valid. I accept that these times mean that woman's feelings will be very polarised.

I agree with the points made that this is a societal issue not a bothy one. We must make each other feel comfortable in each other's company. But you don't solve a problem by shouting at everyone and telling them to behave.
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JackT
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Re: Topical Article By A Woman Who Bothies Alone

Post by JackT »

ScotRoutes wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 11:46 am OTOH most of the overtly "laddish" behaviour that has put many of us off bothying has been going on for decades. Diluting that with other voices could be a good thing for everyone.
100%. I seriously doubt the people who buy and read Phoebe's books are the ones who are causing the kinds of problems described in this thread.
Dave Barter wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 12:26 pm labelling an entire gender as the agressor
Her article didn't come across this way to me in the slightest. By any measure, male violence towards women is a big problem in our society. 100% of male violence towards women is perpetrated by men. That doesn't mean all men are perpetrators of male violence.
Last edited by JackT on Fri Mar 19, 2021 12:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Topical Article By A Woman Who Bothies Alone

Post by Bearbonesnorm »

Firstly I empathised with her fear of the unknown in entering a bothy solo. I feel this too but not from the perspective of a woman as I never can.

But it made me not ever want to go into a bothy again because I am a man. The reason is that I may encounter a solo woman and make her feel uncomfortable. The counter to that is that if I behaved properly that would never happen, but I'm scared I might make a mistake or say the wrong thing. I'm naturally sarcastic and usually wiped out by the time I get there and maybe not thinking as straight as I should. Not that I'd start being leery, maybe just a bit weird. I feel the author gave me a list of rules as a man to abide by on entry and I agree with all of them. I know there is a balance to be redressed but somehow feel labelling an entire gender as the agressor is going to trigger a certain resentment as it did in me. The article could have been written entirely gender neutrally and focused on behaviours it would be just as valid. I accept that these times mean that woman's feelings will be very polarised.
Yes - not only did it further my reluctance to use bothies but reading it has actually made me think - 'careful, maybe you'd be better off not talking to women if you happen upon any while you're out'. Then I thought, 'ooh yeah but that in itself seems weird and might raise suspicions that you're a misogynist'. Honestly, I'm beginning to feel like I've no idea how to behave. I read yesterday that I shouldn't hold a door open for a woman as it says that 'I'm in control' and the woman in question can only enter or leave the room at my wish. I'll hold a door open for anyone, male or female because it's simply good manners ... am I wrong?

The MBA has a code of conduct, it states 'respect other bothy users'. It makes no stipulations about gender, race, colour, creed or religion ... surely that's what we should be working with.
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Re: Topical Article By A Woman Who Bothies Alone

Post by Dave Barter »

Her article didn't come across this way to me in the slightest. By any measure, male violence towards women is a big problem in our society. 100% of male violence towards women is perpetrated by men. That doesn't mean all men are perpetrators of male violence.
Yeah maybe, but the strapline was "if there’s anything men can do to make women feel safe in bothies" and by implication I read aggressor.

Remember I prefixed my points with "about how it made me feel". You feel entirely differently.
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Re: Topical Article By A Woman Who Bothies Alone

Post by JackT »

Bearbonesnorm wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 12:40 pm Honestly, I'm beginning to feel like I've no idea how to behave. I read yesterday that I shouldn't hold a door open for a woman as it says that 'I'm in control' and the woman in question can only enter or leave the room at my wish. I'll hold a door open for anyone, male or female because it's simply good manners ... am I wrong?

The MBA has a code of conduct, it states 'respect other bothy users'. It makes no stipulations about gender, race, colour, creed or religion ... surely that's what we should be working with.
I don't think it's that difficult. As Phoebe puts it in the article:



So how can you make women feel safe?

The first step is to treat them how you want to be treated. This means being respectful and keeping ‘banter’ of the gender variety to yourself. What may be a ‘bit of fun’ to you can be, at best, casual sexism and, at worse, quietly intimidating.

The second is to keep your friends in check. If your hillwalking companion starts ‘joking around’ saying something inappropriate you need to be the one to shut it down, because if you don’t then you are part of the problem, condoning this behaviour through your silence.

Thirdly, be an ally, if you notice a woman in a bothy is looking uncomfortable because of someone else’s behaviour then intervene, whether that be speaking up, offering to swap seats or sleeping platforms, challenging the perpetrator or simply (and quietly) asking if she is ok.

Fourthly, be aware of space – I once had a group of lads (without asking) clear their kit out of one room so I could have my own space to change and sleep. But such a dramatic gesture is not always necessary – simple things such as not invading someone’s personal space, giving room (if possible) between sleeping mats or topping and tailing if space is tight and offering to leave the room when it’s time to undress for bed, will not only be appreciated but also show you are not a threat.

And finally, the fact that you’ve read this far shows that you are already part of the solution. So share these tips with friends, be willing to talk about this issue (rather than groan) and be part of the discussion.
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Re: Topical Article By A Woman Who Bothies Alone

Post by sean_iow »

Bearbonesnorm wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 12:40 pm Honestly, I'm beginning to feel like I've no idea how to behave.
It does seem to be it's getting harder to know what to do.

On the CL I saw 2 women at the side of the track with an upside down bike. I stopped and asked if they were ok? Not because they were women but because they were mountain bikers with an obvious mechanical.

It turns out they had snapped a chain and didn't know how to fix it, not because they were women but because they'd never snapped a chain before.

I fixed it for them whilst at the same time sort if explaining how to do it and advised they get some further instruction and practice just in case.

I consider this to be the right thing to do but recent things I've read seem to suggest that me asking if they were ok is me implying they don't know what they are doing because they are women? So am I now supposed to just ride past and leave them with a long walk out?
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