What would you do...

[redefined_cycles]

Sorry if this might sound like a bit of 'another bash'. With regard to my Sonder Transmitter frame. Background and the grovel story of how I saved up for a year and then took a year to build with quality parts and then rode it only 2200 miles of careful xc riding bla bla...

The other day me and Dan were riding our bikes. Me trying to get up a bit of cobbles and put too kuch stress into the rear mech (well, i downshifted whilst I hit the cobbles... the clever). The mech jammed (as it would) and the force caused it to shear away from the hanger. Me and Dan thought it was fine and single speeded it and carried on our merry way without allowing the chain to contact the chainstays. But summat wasn't right.

After a few more light downhill sections and there being a 'funny' noise from the drivetrain, I realised the bridge between the seat and chainstays had been tugged apart. Told Dan to go on and I sorry-walked it back to civilisation (to the rescue van). Thinking to myself it's lovely Sonder I didn't worry too much...

At the point of sale I queried with the team about it's strength (a superlight 1200g frame) and was told it's got 5 years warranty and its their strongest frame to date (or garb to the effect). So I send in the warranty info and some pics. Which if looked at carefully - well you'd need to get hands on to examine it properly - can be seen that the bridge between the chain and seat stays has sheared/pulled apart.

In the meanwhile I look through the Sonder sales pages and realise the Transmitter carbon has been archived and no longer for sale. I think, it's a cut and shut and obviously (in my head) that they'd only archive such a beautiful for quality control purposes.

Today I get this email (in my opinion, fobbing me off) from a brother/sister at Sonder...

Thanks for getting back in touch. I am afraid the frame would not be classed as a manufacturing defect as it appears to have occurred due to impact.
We do have one single transmitter carbon frame left in stock which I would be happy to supply at 50% off the normal list price as a replacement if that would be of interest?

All the best,

Obviously I'm taking it easy and they have a good track record as well as it being alot of money. But what has got to me a bit ia that they've not even bothered to examine to piece of trash a bit further and IMO any engineer could see its not an impact but the stay getting pulled apart. 'Our steongest frame yet' my left foot...

[redefined_cycles]

In case anyone wonders, no ive not been drilling into it and yes, it was my dream bike and cwrefully selected for being Sonder and having all the nooks and crannies for my needs (1x... internal dropper compatible etc).

[Bearbonesnorm]

Is it a bonded joint that's come apart Shaf? Have you got a picture?

[redefined_cycles]

Is it a bonded joint that's come apart Shaf? Have you got a picture?

One moment Stu... let me get a few so you can see it's obviously not impact. Its a bridge between the seat and chainstay which (my theory reckons) is a weak section and thats whats tugged itself apart. If nothing else I might (eventually) get it sent to Luscher Technic for his analysis and get him to cut it open.

You'll know better but in my experience carbin specialists wouldn't touch this area for repair...

[voodoo_simon]

Did you buy it from them or was it second hand?

[FLV]

Is it a bonded joint that's come apart Shaf? Have you got a picture?

Giz a look.

[redefined_cycles]

Managed to locate the 'this is strong' message from one of the nice reps dated 2/10/2017 when i was still enquiring after buying it



Some pics (but I've tried not to disturb the fracture) after cleaning the frame up a little bit to show it's all still mint condition (except for a but of fat tyre rub my bad)...






Apologies for the paper... I did try



This is what it looked like just after the mech hanger sheared and superfically it still looks fine. The 'pulling apart' only showed up after I tried to continue riding it and at first it was just the creaking.



Here's Dan once again looking happy at our SS handywork (or maybe that he has a Rohloff )

[redefined_cycles]

Is it a bonded joint that's come apart Shaf? Have you got a picture?

Giz a look.

Dave... are you a structural engineer (buildings... frames... same thing ) I can get it across to you if you wwished to smash it with a hammer insteqd of Luscher Techinc cutting it up...

[redefined_cycles]

Did you buy it from them or was it second hand?

Brandnew Simon... £799 (which went up whilst I was still saving up for it but they honoured that). Should've gone to Santa Cruz (but a dropper wouldn't have fit)

[Bearbonesnorm]

I can kind of understand why they think that's impact damage Shaf but I'm not sure how much of that is your 'cleaning it up'. I would expect a joint failure to look cleaner but I'm not actually sure that is a joint in the way I'm thinking - certainly not a slip joint from the look of it but I could be wrong.

[redefined_cycles]

I can kind of understand why they think that's impact damage Shaf but I'm not sure how much of that is your 'cleaning it up'. I would expect a joint failure to look cleaner but I'm not actually sure that is a joint in the way I'm thinking - certainly not a slip joint from the look of it but I could be wrong.

Fair enough Stu. Pity thwy didn't want to examine it fuether or discuss things through. The blurb I was given at the point of sale was summat like this



Gonna edit the title so it doesnt seem like a dig at them. Have forwarded that message to the team (between myself and Niel at the point of sale) but if Stu thinks it looks like impact damage then I'd expect they'll just continue with their current line...

Sonder... never again (for me)...

[redefined_cycles]

NB. (Regards my cleaning it up) Nope, I was very careful not to clean anything around the break. One piece of paint did come off with the elwctrical type tape I had holding it together

[FLV]

Not quite what I do shaf nope
Pretty hard to tell what may have caused that by looking at the pictures, but all the paint chipping does make it look like its had a whack, or maybe had some fun with the mech / chain interaction. If (cant tell, just saying if) the failure has been caused or accelerated by something other than normal use then they have no obligation to do anything for you.

Again, an to be clear, its hard to tell from the pics but you do say it happened after a poor shift, under load etc etc.

If you bought it late 2017 its 3.5 years after purchase, and if that is going to be their judgment of the failure (as in the product is not at fault) then a half price frame isn't really a bad offer, if indeed you wanted another one.

[Chew]

Hard to tell from the pictures, but if its been enough force to sheer the hanger it wouldnt surprise me if it bounced back with a similar amount of force and has struck the frame.

Is it just the paint or the frame?


If the frame is damaged its probably just bad luck.
50% discount on a replacement frame is a good deal.

Its these kinda things which stop my buying a carbon bike for off road use.
If you saw my trail bike it has more paint missing than original paint, with the local gritstone being very unforgiving.

[redefined_cycles]

Fair enough. Yes, it did happen after a poor shift and a mangled mech/mech hanger. Straight after the tug (you can see from the pic of the mangled drive train and then freshly SS one) the fracture wasn't apparent.

Oh well, I might dwell on whether I want another superlight/strongest frame of theirs. Always good to get a balanced opinion

Thanks all folks...

[stevenshand]

I think it would be pretty obvious if the initial damage was cause by a strike vs some sort of fatigue failure. What might complicate things is that if you've then ridden it for any sort of distance when it's cracked/broken, that's going to mess up the area pretty bad and make it harder to tell. The flaking paint is a bit of a red herring as I'd expect that to flake off round that area if it's been ridden when it's already broken.

I wouldn't want to speculate on what caused it but I am pretty surprised that they wouldn't at least want to get it back to look at it. If I was in their position I'd be wanting to keep you as a happy customer for as long as possible even if the ultimate decision was that they wouldn't cover it under warranty. To just refuse at the first point of contact sounds like a poor decision.

[pistonbroke]

Firstly, bad luck on your broken frame Shaf, you know it could possibly be mended? Secondly, this whole subject is a difficult one. Having worked alongside Neil for 21/2 years, I class him as one of the good guys, he wouldn't try to screw you over. Interesting to see that out of the 16 Sonder frames available today, only 2 are carbon. 5 years ago carbon bikes and frames were a licence to print money, everyone wanted the light weight they offered and the sellers liked their cheap as chips, made in Taiwan or China sales model. Durability is an intangible and works on the risk and reward principal and treading a fine line between how light is too light?
Third,A company the size of Sonder has a dilemma when offering carbon bikes. It's too small to fully design a frame from scratch, get a mold made costing tens of thousands of Dollars and then sell enough frames/bikes to get back their investment. Instead they take an openly available mold that may have previously been used by a big brand and tweak it and sticker it with their name on it. Working in metal allows smaller run lengths and the ability to change faults or add features without major cost.
Lastly, I think their 50% offer is fair on a 3+ year old frame that has, by your own admission, received minimal TLC (remember the headset?) and definitely not grounds for vowing not to touch them again. Stuff breaks, the same could happen to a Santa Cruz but instead you'd be looking at a £2k hole in your wallet.

[FLV]

Firstly, bad luck on your broken frame Shaf, you know it could possibly be mended? Secondly, this whole subject is a difficult one. Having worked alongside Neil for 21/2 years, I class him as one of the good guys, he wouldn't try to screw you over. Interesting to see that out of the 16 Sonder frames available today, only 2 are carbon. 5 years ago carbon bikes and frames were a licence to print money, everyone wanted the light weight they offered and the sellers liked their cheap as chips, made in Taiwan or China sales model. Durability is an intangible and works on the risk and reward principal and treading a fine line between how light is too light?
Third,A company the size of Sonder has a dilemma when offering carbon bikes. It's too small to fully design a frame from scratch, get a mold made costing tens of thousands of Dollars and then sell enough frames/bikes to get back their investment. Instead they take an openly available mold that may have previously been used by a big brand and tweak it and sticker it with their name on it. Working in metal allows smaller run lengths and the ability to change faults or add features without major cost.
Lastly, I think their 50% offer is fair on a 3+ year old frame that has, by your own admission, received minimal TLC (remember the headset?) and definitely not grounds for vowing not to touch them again. Stuff breaks, the same could happen to a Santa Cruz but instead you'd be looking at a £2k hole in your wallet.

I agree with nearly everything you said. Except (a bit pedantic granted ),
The best comparison would be a Santa Cruz Chameleon Carbon frame which is 1299 RRP.
I am not claiming that to be a bargain but it is less than 2k by a good way. Also they are likely big enough to have laid down their own moulds for it. Its also built a little heavier with a large coming in at 1750g ish rather than 1200g.
I'm not really saying much else as these can get broken just like any frame.

Also, for balance on carbon worries. The only frames I have broken personally in the last several years have been steel. One from damage, one from fatigue. The big difference of course is that they can be welded to fix that particular problem.

[fatbikephil]

Bit of an odd failure mechanism that. If the rear mech jammed into the cassette / wheel good and proper, the next thing it would hit is the back of the drop out. Even if it scraped past this and twatted the chain stay, there isn't enough substance to it to break the tube. Cause and effect? Chainstay tensile failure?? (bouncing up and down on the bike or the back wheel hitting a bump puts the chainstay into tension) which then causes the drop out to twist, putting the rear mech into the cassette and knackering it??

I'd agree with Steve, they should at least take the frame back for a look before making a decision. I think there are people out there who fix such things?

[FLV]

https://carbonbikerepair.co.uk/#services

[pistonbroke]

The best comparison would be a Santa Cruz Chameleon Carbon frame which is 1299 RRP.

I was thinking that the Highball at 1140g was closer and retails for $1899.

[FLV]

The best comparison would be a Santa Cruz Chameleon Carbon frame which is 1299 RRP.

I was thinking that the Highball at 1140g was closer and retails for $1899.

Fair enough.

Tomarto / Tomayto

[ScotRoutes]

With regards to Santa Cruz, they may be expensive but their warranty support is outstanding. That's as a previous owner and as someone who has worked in the bike trade.


On Shafs bike, that does look like some sort of impact damage from those photos. I'd have thought that they might want to take a look at it but I can't see that there would be some sort of join there. From the original description I was thinking that there was some sort of bracing tube that had maybe come away but that looks properly mashed.

50% after three and a half years, maybe not great but that's more than it would sell for (in an undamaged state) so not too far out from the value of the frame.

Carbon vs steel vs aluminium vs titanium? I've seen breakages in them all. I don't think it's possible to come up with a general theory of strength/durability based on frame material at all.

[voodoo_simon]

Did you buy it from them or was it second hand?

Brandnew Simon... £799 (which went up whilst I was still saving up for it but they honoured that). Should've gone to Santa Cruz (but a dropper wouldn't have fit)

Fair one, I’d try again but I think you’ll be relying on good will rather than a warranty from the photos and my experience of (when I used to work in) bike shops. Have seen plenty of frames damaged in more or less that spot.

Other than that, have you any sailing clubs near by? Some of those can be useful for carbon repair or import a repair pack from China for not much £££, was sceptical from this but a friend has had good results

[redefined_cycles]

In my pics above if you look carefully, during the repair of the chain (and we would have seen this as me and Dan were staring right at the bit thats fractured/come away whilst sorting this) the bridge looked intact. It was after starting to ride up the trail to the end of Wessenden Head and hearing the noise that I inspected again and noted it had come away.

The only impact it could have got was from when the mech became mangled it the chain and sheared off. Personally (if it was me, and granted I am a bit wierd) I'd have warranted it or at least taken closer inspection. But the thread is good for balance to get my bearings right. Alao... There's lots of also.. the fact that they've become a B-Grade (something like that) company with immaculate after service, they really could do the same as SC or at least take a look. Hopefully Dan might see the thread and confirm what I said (he was behind/in front when it happened and could at least confirm I didn't fall so the fracture didn't take rock impact etc)...

Sad stuff