Road bike question.

[Borderer]

Hi, apologies for asking a non-bikepacking question, but I thought someone here might know the answer.

A couple of years ago I built a road bike. I fell off it a couple of times in mysterious circumstances before I noticed how bad the tyre-rub is. My foot catches pretty badly and the minute it does, I am off. It has 175 cranks on it and I think I need to put 165's on, it's just that I haven't been able to find any at a reasonable price to try (it has a Campag drivetrain).

When I look at it and measure it very carefully it seems as though that won't actually help me anyway as I still think my toes will catch the tyre. The frame is very small - is it possible for a frame to have been built where even the shortest cranks available will cause rub? Or have I made a mistake somewhere? The fork came with it but I am wondering if that is maybe the problem - could it be that the angle of the fork is wrong? Is that a thing? I am a bit clueless - this was the first bike I ever built and I have to admit that I really didn't know what I was doing....

[ScotRoutes]

Toe overlap on a road bike isn't unusual. However, 99.9% of folk never experience a problem with it as they never need to turn the bars that much.

FWIW, it gets even worse with mudguards.

[Borderer]

Toe overlap on a road bike isn't unusual. However, 99.9% of folk never experience a problem with it as they never need to turn the bars that much.

FWIW, it gets even worse with mudguards.

Yeah, it was doing slow turns that always brought me off - unfortunately this was sometimes when turning right across a road. Not the best. I didn't realise that it was an accepted problem though.

[ScotRoutes]

Maybe you just get used to it - adjust pedal stroke etc.

I hate 175mm cranks, but that's down to power application and pedal strike more than toe overlap. I have 165mm on a few of my bikes and 170mm where 165s aren't available.

[Jurassic]

Toe overlap (I think that's what you mean) isn't unheard of on road bikes and you can learn to ride around the issue. I had an old winter training bike that had the same problem (made worse by fitting full mudguards) and although I fell off it a few times over the years it wasn't caused by the toe overlap issue. Fitting shorter cranks might help a bit and in the photo it looks like you're using toeclips and straps, maybe try riding without them (just on the pedals) to see whether that helps. If it does you could consider clipless pedals if needs be. It's certainly not a desirable trait but it needn't be the end of the world either (although I understand that if it's already caught you out a few times it would knock your confidence in the bike).

[thenorthwind]

What Colin said really. I get a bit of toe overlap on my gravel bike with guards on, but only at very slow speed, and guards are more forgiving.

Shorter cranks should help, if not eliminate the problem. 175mm cranks are too big for a frame that size I would say (from a pedalling mechanics perspective as much as toe overlap).

[Borderer]

Ok thanks, I guess I will keep an eye out a bit longer for 165 campags. I did wonder if I should have put a spacer between the crown of the fork and frame and if that would help.....

[voodoo_simon]

As Colin said, toe overlap is the cause and it’s pretty common for us small riders (I’m 5’ 7)

I noticed you’re using toe clips on the bike, perhaps try it without those as it may be putting your foot too far forward (in terms of overlap not body position)

[Jurassic]

Maybe try thinking consciously "inside pedal up" when you're doing a tight turn and see whether you can train yourself? It might feel a bit alien if you're used to clocking your pedals level for ground clearance on a mountain bike but you'll get there I'm sure.

[Borderer]

As Colin said, toe overlap is the cause and it’s pretty common for us small riders (I’m 5’ 7)

I noticed you’re using toe clips on the bike, perhaps try it without those as it may be putting your foot too far forward (in terms of overlap not body position)

Yeah I have look Keos but I just put the clips on to use it on the trainer.

[robbie]

I'd start by checking the frame is the right size for you. Then look at the fork offset. I don't think shorter cranks is going to eliminate it tbh. Unless it's just catching and no more?
I've had a few road bikes and only experienced this on two. One was when mudgaurds were fitted Never a problem without them. And once on a new cervelo i hired in Tenerife. It was the correct sized frame but think the fork offset caused it. Lovely bike but wouldn't of bought it because of this.

[Borderer]

I'd start by checking the frame is the right size for you. Then look at the fork offset. I don't think shorter cranks is going to eliminate it tbh. Unless it's just catching and no more?
I've had a few road bikes and only experienced this on two. One was when mudgaurds were fitted Never a problem without them. And once on a new cervelo i hired in Tenerife. It was the correct sized frame but think the fork offset caused it. Lovely bike but wouldn't of bought it because of this.

Ok thanks. How do I check the offset? Is there some sort of rule for that?

[robbie]

You should be able to find it on the manufacturers geometry for that bike.

[Borderer]

You should be able to find it on the manufacturers geometry for that bike.

They went out of business years ago. It's very difficult to find anything online about this bike/frame.

[jameso]

No real rule for front end geometry and toe overlap, apart from ideally avoiding it and making sure there's 90mm of clearance between pedal centre and tyre for ISO / EN regs (100mm on MTBs or City bikes). eg -



Fork offset could resolve it but adding enough offset to do that may well make the bike lighter/faster handling or twitchy. +5 to +10mm offset on a light road bike can be enough to turn it from normal to a bit twitchy and it's rare to find a road fork with more than 50mm offset - it's probably a 43 or 45mm on there now.

The common way to resolve it on a smaller frame bike is a slacker head tube and more offset combined, sometimes with a steeper seat angle to increase front triangle space for the same top tube length (not always a good idea), or a 650B or 650C wheelset. I don't think there's an easy fix for a bike that has a short crank to front axle dimensions already though.

If you can go without Campy cranks I'm not sure if even a 155mm would be too short if you're just over 5', if you can find them. 160mm cranks from Sugino are available, Spa Cycles sell a good range of Stonglight and Sugino RD2 square taper cranks with colour and ring choices. They're not expensive. I've got RD2s on my audax bike and I'm happy with them (170s fwiw, I'm a bit over 6'). They're not as stiff as a Shimano hollow crank but certainly not flexy like a Brompton crank, I wouldn't say it made any difference to my riding overall.

[FLV]

It looks like your on road clipless, if there is no adjustment on the shoes to move the cleat forward, could you try MTB shoes (and pedals etc) and a forward cleat position to help?

I know it alters your ideal foot position but maybe that comprise is worth it?

Just a thought, maybe combined with the cranks it can work?

[Cheeky Monkey]

Toe lap is rubbish.

The Camino I had was horrid for it although it was probably significantly worsened by me being on a size too small. The subsequent Goldrush, broadly speaking a size up, is almost totally without it.

It seems to be something people either tolerate or can't abide (guess which camp I'm in ). There seems to be something of a mindset that it's just what you get on some road bikes / drop bar frames and therefore you "live with it" or "adjust your riding style". Personally, I think it's kack. Whilst it never had me off it was a rubbish experience bonking your toe, especially as it seemed to happen when in the middle of some slow, tight, nadgery bit of riding.

My recommendation is the nuclear, unsustainable one of getting rid of existing and replacing with something that fits and works properly Failing that try all the fannying around that everyone else suggests

NB: slightly tongue-in-cheek

[Borderer]

Thanks all.

Yeah I agree that this is a fundamental issue which really shouldn't ever happen. I will check out the other cranks Jameso recommends. I didn't realise they went that short - I thought they were kiddy cranks Given that the rest of the drivetrain in Campag would they be compatible though? I know Miche stuff is.

I did spend some time yesterday perusing ebay to see what I could buy to replace this bike. I quite fancy a gravel bike as the roads around here are so bad you really need wider tyres for the potholes. The trouble is that I couldn't sell it as is in all good conscience. I would have to replace the cranks anyway as there is a real danger someone would come off going round a roundabout or something and finish up under a truck. So I either have to break it down and sell all the parts or get shorter cranks for it. The 175 crankset that's on there was bought new and was a total bargain. It has very little wear so I could probably even make money on it, so that's fine.

No the cleat doesn't go any further forward on my shoe.

[sean_iow]

Why can't you sell it in good faith? It's how it was designed, there's nothing wrong with it it's just a function of having road bike geometry.

Jane's Merida has a lot of toe overlap, she does catch the wheel with her foot occasionally but only if making a tight turn at a very low speed. My Planet X London Road has some, and that's a large, I'll occasionally catch the trye but only off road making a very tight slow turn.

If they designed out the overlap then there'd have to be a compromise somewhere else, either the fit or the handling at other speeds. Someone else on the bike may never catch a foot if their riding is different or they come from a road background.

If you do replace it I'd recommend trying before you buy as toe overlap has been quite common on the road bikes I've ridden.

[Borderer]

Why can't you sell it in good faith? It's how it was designed, there's nothing wrong with it it's just a function of having road bike geometry.

Jane's Merida has a lot of toe overlap, she does catch the wheel with her foot occasionally but only if making a tight turn at a very low speed. My Planet X London Road has some, and that's a large, I'll occasionally catch the trye but only off road making a very tight slow turn.

If they designed out the overlap then there'd have to be a compromise somewhere else, either the fit or the handling at other speeds. Someone else on the bike may never catch a foot if their riding is different or they come from a road background.

If you do replace it I'd recommend trying before you buy as toe overlap has been quite common on the road bikes I've ridden.

Well I don't think it would have been designed with 175 cranks, I just made a mistake when I bought the cheapest ones I could find and put them on there! So it's not really fair to sell it that way to my mind. It really wouldn't sit right with me.

[sean_iow]

You'd probably need 120mm or less cranks on my wife's to not catch the wheel and that's without mudguards and it's got the fixing eyes so it's designed to take them. I think it might even have 170s on it.

Most bikes will have cranks at 175, it's the most common size. I wanted 170mm SRAM X0s for my Spearfish but couldn't find any second hand, but there were literally 100s at 175 so I had to settle for that.

[Cheeky Monkey]

...
If they designed out the overlap then there'd have to be a compromise somewhere else, either the fit or the handling at other speeds. ...

I wonder whether that is just received wisdom. Bike design seems to be a mélange of compromises related to all sorts of factors and many are not about the "best design" solution. E.g. wasn't 26" wheel size for most MTBs just down to what was easily available at the time?. I can't help wondering whether toe-lap on road bikes isn't one of those "it's always been like that so it's normal" things.

I'm an ignoramus on this though as true-road bikes are not part of my life.

[stevenshand]

Mass produced bikes will always suffer a little more from this than smaller volume brands I think. I know when I design for a smaller rider I'll always pay more attention to a minimum front centre dimension than I normally would. To get this to work, it will normally mean a fork with a greater offset which will then require a slacker headangle to give you an appropriate trail figure (as James mentioned above). I do agree that to eliminate toe overlap entirely, you might need to make compromises elsewhere, namely shorter stem and longer toptube than normal and often a lower saddle setback figure.

At Shand, we almost always specced a bigger offset fork on the smaller roadbikes, I'd like to see more of the bigger brands do that too.