Hate to bring it up again but ...

[Cheeky Monkey]

Something about Covid threads puts me in mind of this:



Mleh

Peace, love and a happy NY

[whitestone]

Some, myself and Cath included, are lucky in that we live in a rural location

Is it luck Bob or did you choose to live there, knowing that in doing so you'd have very few amenities, local facilities or entertainment opportunities? We all make choices and we all make sacrifices when we do. I didn't buy a raffle ticket to find myself here

Well we did choose to live here but I grew up in a much more rural/remote location so to some extent it's what I'm used to. But yes, a lifestyle choice that we were able to take many years ago and certainly not with an eye to enduring a global pandemic.

As for conflicting guidelines, from the tier 4 list:

Residents should stay at home, unless they have a "reasonable excuse" such as work or education

You can leave home for work, education, training, childcare and for medical appointments and emergencies

Unlimited exercise outdoors is permitted

So I can do unlimited exercise outdoors but can't leave home to do so. Eh? If you don't have a garden or even a balcony how can you exercise outdoors without leaving home? I'm assuming that "training" in the first list does not mean VO2max intervals on the bike

I don't envy anyone having to come with guidelines/rules that anyone can follow but there is a definite feeling of "unjoined thinking" when it comes to this. Rules (or guidelines if you prefer) get added or taken away and over time these inconsistencies appear. During the first lockdown I had to come up with an interpretation of the rules (and they were "rules" written into law) so I asked a senior police officer, one with assistant, chief and commissioner in front of his name, and he had to ask a government lawyer about what would and wouldn't constitute a breach of those rules. What chance have the rest of us got?

I tend to apply the "If I have to ask if it's alright to do xxx then it isn't" test.

[In Reverse]

I've got no issue with people driving up Snake Pass to walk on Bleaklow tbh. In terms of Covid risk it's practically zero. In fact it probably is zero. Obviously the people who went up there without warm clothing and got their cars stuck are bellends but that's a different story.

I have little sympathy for Derbyshire police's whinging since they very publicly decided to follow joggers and dogwalkers on Curbar Edge with drones crying about a Covid risk last year

[Scud]

I live in a rural area, and consider myself lucky to do so, my wife works as a consultant in our local hospital, but what bugs me is that every time there is a lockdown, we clearly see a stream of Range Rovers, Audi and Jaguar SUV's, with those driving it adorned in tweed and Hunter wellies all heading to their second homes on the coast here, or "surrey by the Sea" as we call the Burnham Overy and Brancaster areas.

Now strangely having had a very low number of cases here until last month in total, we are out of control, with rural hospitals in real trouble and running at 90% capacity, my wife had all her xmas and new year leave cancelled, and the cases here now are directly linked to the new strain that was first found down south.

So whilst i have nothing but empathy for those that have lost jobs or suffer with mental health issues (and i count a friends husbands recent suicide to have been greatly exacerbated by this virus and long periods of anxiety) if you are wanting things to get back to normal as soon as possible, then there has to be an understanding that the worst thing you can do is go traipsing all around the country, rural or not?

You can't blame the virus as being the root cause of job losses, of mental health problems, then be part of the problem, not the solution.

[whitestone]

Here's a realistic scenario.

I live in N. Yorks, currently tier 3, I'm doing work for my brother who lives in Cumbria, currently tier 4, nearest neighbour half a mile away. The work is dry stone walling so can't be done from home, so long as I don't nip into (essential) shops in Cumbria or his or anyone's else house whilst I'm there then everything's fine and legit.

However If I drove over to exactly the same place to go for a walk or even just sit by the side of the wall I'm building that's a no go.

The risk to myself and everyone else is exactly the same but one scenario's fine and one isn't. Now I'm not about to do the latter but I don't doubt that some would and would attempt to justify it using the "no increased risk" gambit.

[Dave Barter]

Here's a realistic scenario.

I live in N. Yorks, currently tier 3, I'm doing work for my brother who lives in Cumbria, currently tier 4, nearest neighbour half a mile away. The work is dry stone walling so can't be done from home, so long as I don't nip into (essential) shops in Cumbria or his or anyone's else house whilst I'm there then everything's fine and legit.

However If I drove over to exactly the same place to go for a walk or even just sit by the side of the wall I'm building that's a no go.

The risk to myself and everyone else is exactly the same but one scenario's fine and one isn't. Now I'm not about to do the latter but I don't doubt that some would and would attempt to justify it using the "no increased risk" gambit.

It's not just about risk though, it's about intent and doing the right thing. The second action could lead to others doing the same led by example. This is the problem with society in that if we see others transgress we can feel empowered to transgress as well ..because they did. I suspect the thinking has covered other aspects beyond risk.

[mattpage]

I think Derbyshire police reported over 200 cars parked at the top of the Snake Pass yesterday, which is far more than you'd expect on a sunny Bank Holiday. I'm beginning to think that the thing that troubles me most is peoples lack of imagination

Absolutely. The same happens on Storey Arms for Pen y Fan. The beacons is massive and beautiful and I can think of far better walks that that.

[Scud]

I suspect Matt that people who rarely hike up a hill, or get out into the countryside often feel safety in numbers, if they can see a stream of people going up and down a hill, then they don't need to attempt to navigate anywhere or feel they might get lost, plus they know there will be an ice-cream van and the path will be that wide and worn, they can do it in trainers?!

[psling]

Here's a realistic scenario.

I live in N. Yorks, currently tier 3, I'm doing work for my brother who lives in Cumbria, currently tier 4, nearest neighbour half a mile away. The work is dry stone walling so can't be done from home, so long as I don't nip into (essential) shops in Cumbria or his or anyone's else house whilst I'm there then everything's fine and legit.

However If I drove over to exactly the same place to go for a walk or even just sit by the side of the wall I'm building that's a no go.

The risk to myself and everyone else is exactly the same but one scenario's fine and one isn't. Now I'm not about to do the latter but I don't doubt that some would and would attempt to justify it using the "no increased risk" gambit.

Yes, interesting scenario. In the first example you are being paid to carry out your usual work and the journey is therefore permitted under travel to work that cannot be carried out from home.
In the second example we have to make the assumption that since you are both walker and wall-builder then you wouldn't bump into yourself there . Now, if the walker was someone else from N.Yorks and you were there building the wall and they stopped to chat on passing and you unfortunately contracted the virus from them then took it home to Cath....

Yes, I'm playing devil's advocate i know. And yes, I too am very lucky that I can step outside the door into a rural paradise but at the current moment that rural paradise is being shared by a hell of a lot more people with London, Midlands, and Welsh accents than usual and yes, as an older person with a history of asthma it does worry me

The other side of the mental illness thing; anxious if you can't get out to the countryside v. anxious if everyone else is getting out in your bit of countryside.

[jameso]

If the government had given clear black and white rulings they would have been labeled as dictators, so wrong again.

I don't think we would have. The moron columnists would have, instead they're just saying lockdowns don't work etc. Surely what tends to happen with rules that don't seem to have logic or reason behind them (er, riding on footpaths?) is they get flexed and broken. Or, rules set by people with little credibility or in conditions lacking mutual respect don't get much support.

Bob's example of the drystone wall is the sort of thing I've heard, where people see the loopholes or contradictions and whether they do the right thing still or not, the grey areas undermines the credibility of the rule makers. I'm sure it's impossible to avoid a few grey areas. And as others have said, it's the principle of sense and safety of those around us that we should be working to. But on here we might be used to ITT ethics and questioning ourselves, the govt know full well that the general population think in a general way.
Those who acted on the virus decisively as the priority appear to have kept their economies more on track and are less/not stuck in the cycle we have in the UK - late lockdown, pressure-relief then rising rates and back to a late lockdown. Every cycle is less effective, every one has more people thinking the basic idea of lockdown doesn't work 'so f the rules may as well do X' etc, and gives some sort of opening for those columnists.

[whitestone]

Dave, that's exactly the point. The risk of the activity is immaterial, it's the risk of eroding the benefits of the rules that is different. It's why Dominic Cummings driving the length of the country with a Covid symptomatic wife set such a bad example regardless of the actual contacts either of them may have had. Most will have looked at what DC did and said to themselves or others: "That's wrong, he shouldn't have done that." but some will have used it to justify their own transgressions with the "If it's OK for DC then it's OK for me." line. Others will have just taken the piss (DC or the rules).

[RIP]

So I can do unlimited exercise outdoors but can't leave home to do so. Eh?

Surely exercise is a legit reason to leave home....

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/tier-4-stay-at-home

If you live in Tier 4 you must not leave or be outside of your home or garden except where you have a ‘reasonable excuse’. A reasonable excuse includes:

Work and volunteering:
You can leave home for work purposes.....or.... provide voluntary or charitable services.

Essential activities:
...to buy things at shops .... but you should stay local. You may also leave your home to do these things on behalf of a disabled or vulnerable person.

Fulfilling legal obligations
You may also leave home to fulfil legal obligations, or to carry out activities related to buying, selling, letting or renting a residential property, or where it is reasonably necessary for voting in an election or referendum.

Education and childcare
You can leave home for education related to the formal curriculum or training...

Meeting others and care:
You can leave home to visit people in your support bubble, or to provide informal care......

Exercise and recreation:
People can also exercise outdoors or visit some public outdoor places, such as parks, the countryside accessible to the public, public gardens or outdoor sports facilities. You can continue to do unlimited exercise alone, or in a public outdoor place with your household, support bubble, or with one other person if you maintain social distancing. You should follow the guidance on meeting others safely.

Medical reasons, harm and compassionate visits:
You can leave home for a medical reason.

Communal worship and life events:
a place of worship for communal worship
a funeral or event related to a death
a burial ground or a remembrance garden
a wedding ceremony

In general, you must not meet socially or carry out any activities with another person. However, you can exercise or meet in a public outdoor place with people you live with, your support bubble (or as part of a childcare bubble), or with one other person.

[RIP]

If "local" means "within 10 miles radius, or a 1 hour bike ride radius" from the door of your house and we're allowed "unlimited" exercise, then our 2 day VWE (or any other ride) seems good to go so long as you return to your garden at night.

While you're out there, keep well away from anyone else and don't touch anything apart from your bike unless you sanitise your hands (I've got a mini-bottle).

The above sounds like it's "setting an example" of responsible exercising?

[woodsmith]

Dave, that's exactly the point. The risk of the activity is immaterial, it's the risk of eroding the benefits of the rules that is different. It's why Dominic Cummings driving the length of the country with a Covid symptomatic wife set such a bad example regardless of the actual contacts either of them may have had. Most will have looked at what DC did and said to themselves or others: "That's wrong, he shouldn't have done that." but some will have used it to justify their own transgressions with the "If it's OK for DC then it's OK for me." line. Others will have just taken the piss (DC or the rules).

It's also the point that he was'nt punished for his actions. Such a high profile figure facing the consequences of their actions may have persuaded many others from from breaking the rules. The simple fact is that the opposite happened.

[Bearbonesnorm]

the countryside accessible to the public

Now I'm confused. Much of the countryside fits that description. Does it not say somewhere about not traveling to exercise or that exercise must start / finish at your home. "the countryside accessible to the public" would seem to imply that you're free to drive yourself up to the Lakes, Peak District, Wales, Road outside Dave's or pretty much anywhere you like? No?

[psling]

Surely exercise is a legit reason to leave home....

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/tier-4-stay-at-home

If you live in Tier 4 you must not leave or be outside of your home or garden except where you have a ‘reasonable excuse’. A reasonable excuse includes:

Exercise and recreation:
People can also exercise outdoors or visit some public outdoor places, such as parks, the countryside accessible to the public, public gardens or outdoor sports facilities. You can continue to do unlimited exercise alone, or in a public outdoor place with your household, support bubble, or with one other person if you maintain social distancing. You should follow the guidance on meeting others safely.

Trouble is Reg, from your own link the above has to be read in conjunction with the section under 'Travel' which includes:

If you live in a Tier 4 area, you must not leave your home unless you have a reasonable excuse (for example, for work or education purposes). If you need to travel you should stay local – meaning avoiding travelling outside of your village, town or the part of a city where you live – and look to reduce the number of journeys you make overall. The list of reasons you can leave your home and area include, but are not limited to:

work, where you cannot work from home
accessing education and for caring responsibilities
visiting those in your support bubble – or your childcare bubble for childcare
visiting hospital, GP and other medical appointments or visits where you have had an accident or are concerned about your health
buying goods or services from premises that are open in Tier 4 areas, including essential retail, but these should be within your local area wherever possible
outdoor recreation or exercise. This should be done locally wherever possible, but you can travel a short distance within your Tier 4 area to do so if necessary (for example, to access an open space)

Not confusing IF you search it ALL out but then maybe that is why it may be seen as confusing

[whitestone]

Reg - again, partly the point. The headlines that people read show the inconsistencies and you need to investigate further to see that they aren't even close to the full story. The headlines say not, the text says yes. Being generous it's likely to be along the lines of: take item A out, put item B in; put item A back in - but now A and B are contradictory. Having spent a long time "optimising" a data entry form to be as idiot proof as possible I can guarantee that if the form states "Put A in here" someone will put B there.

Woodsmith - I agree. Even if the punishment wasn't severe, maybe a fine, he should have been punished and seen to be punished.

[mattpage]

I suspect Matt that people who rarely hike up a hill, or get out into the countryside often feel safety in numbers, if they can see a stream of people going up and down a hill, then they don't need to attempt to navigate anywhere or feel they might get lost, plus they know there will be an ice-cream van and the path will be that wide and worn, they can do it in trainers?!

Whilst that is absolutely the case, the top of PyF when visibility drops is an absolute nightmare to navigate off. There are about 4 or 5 different paths off, each of these will split further.

[mattpage]

the countryside accessible to the public

Now I'm confused. Much of the countryside fits that description. Does it not say somewhere about not traveling to exercise or that exercise must start / finish at your home. "the countryside accessible to the public" would seem to imply that you're free to drive yourself up to the Lakes, Peak District, Wales, Road outside Dave's or pretty much anywhere you like? No?

You can travel within a reasonable area if you can not exercise from your door. Or at least you can within Wales and I think. What is reasonable is up for debate however and there is no fixed distance.

[RIP]

Our thoughts/ravings might be academic after The Boris Show at 8pm ... lucky you haven't got a telly Stu!

[Scud]

Totally agree with you Matt, whilst i don't live in a mountainous area, we have an island called Scolt Head, one of those you can wade across to on the lowest point of the tide, then have to wait the 12 hours to get back, being rescued from the island for people who don't realise tides comes in and out in cycles and get stuck there comprised 81 of the 187 call-outs for the lifeboat here last year.

I think the biggest issue with all the lockdown/ covid rules, is that half the population will adhere to it, the other half will abuse it and simply look to find the loophole so that they can go as they please.

[Scud]

I guess the 8pm show will mirror Scotlands announcement already, that we are going into a proper lockdown including schools closing?

So more poor attempts at home-schooling again for me!

[ScotRoutes]

From ScotGov today...

Travel no further than you need to reach to a safe, non-crowded place to exercise in a socially distanced way.

So, by all means travel to exercise, but don't pass suitable locations on the way to somewhere you just fancy more.

[Cheddar Man]

If "local" means "within 10 miles radius, or a 1 hour bike ride radius" from the door of your house and we're allowed "unlimited" exercise, then our 2 day VWE (or any other ride) seems good to go so long as you return to your garden at night.

While you're out there, keep well away from anyone else and don't touch anything apart from your bike unless you sanitise your hands (I've got a mini-bottle).

The above sounds like it's "setting an example" of responsible exercising?

They missed a verse from the poem on the first page......

My name is Reggie Regson
I like to ride my bike
I’ll do it despite the Tiers
Boris can take a hike
I used to sleep in ditches
Now it’s in my garden shed
But it isn’t irresponsible I’ve decided
I’ve done the science in my head

[Cheeky Monkey]

You really are charm personified aren't you