Strategy for staying comfortable in winter?

[Chrisps]

Just interested in other's approaches to keeping your upper body comfortable while riding (both day rides and bikepacking) in winter.

I find whatever I do, I end up hot and sweating on the climbs, but then freeze on the downs, or worse if I stop. It certainly saps the fun!

I wouldn't say I sweat more than an average guy, but I do think I warm up and cool down pretty quick.

The best I have found is a skin-tight X-Bionics baselayer from SP (which are excellent at stopping you feel clammy) under a Paramo Ciclo because its utterly windproof and has massive pit vents. Constantly reconfiguring the jacket for climbs and descents sort of works, but is a faff. I feel there is probably a better way.

So interested in others approaches (oh, and stop being soft isn't the approach I am looking for )

Oh, and bonus question; I have read a lot on this forum about OutDry Reign Ex jackets. How do people find it on the boil-in-a-bag scale, and lots of reviews suggest the hood fit is bad - does it hoover up rain if you are riding fast?

[Lazarus]

IS that not everyones experience?
I find anything that will prevent the wind will lead to sweat and what is comfortable on the bike is off no use if you are stationary . Actually I once walked up Snowdon in winter in my thermal tights [ zero ish temp and snow] and I was freezing. Never had an issue with them on the bike and been in colder conditions.
My best advice is if you are freezinfg when you start and for the first 10-20 mins its probably about right
There may be a more scientific apporach than this.

Bikepacking moderate effort when you know you are going to stop so you are not sweaty [ but definetly not cold that is worse] at the time and jacket on as soon as I stop.

My outdry has pit and arm vents and is ok but it wont be the perfection you seek and I do sweat bit not excessvely. Hood is fine - the lightwight one is a bit crap for walking [too flimsy] in but ok on the bike

[Al]

I commute over the Shropshire hills at the moment and you get pretty hot on the climbs and cold on the descents. On cold days a long sleeve merino base layer and gore wind stopper jersey stays on all the time. I carry primaloft gilet and a thin packable rain shell to add and remove as needed. Doesn’t solve the faff, but then I’m happy to stop and admire the view. Keeping them in an easy access bag helps. I use on of the little acepac bar bags from stu - very quick to get at stuff.
A less faffing approach - what about trying a lightweight pertex-pile equivalent like rab vaporise or the new polartec alpha stuff. I’ve got an old vaporise stretch I rate for winter mountain bilking and Chuck an e-vent smock shell on if it’s pretty foul. But avoid wearing it as, yes waterproofs are sweaty. Even nice ones.

[jameso]

Primaloft gilets, I probably get boring saying this over and again on here but they've solved cold/wet weather riding for me. With a good wicking layer underneath I find they manage to pull sweat away far more effectively than thinner or more 'solid' insulation layers. Often find the inner fabric layer dry and the outer wet - someone who know more about temperature gradients might explain why they work so well.
Just need to get the right weight gsm of fill - 40 is good, 60 can feel very warm. The Endura FS260 is good for faster riding, quite minimal.
A real benefit is how well they wok under a waterproof when it's truly crappy weather and you're stuck in it. As someone who gets cold fast it's been a revelation using this stuff in recent years.

Just need the same level of solution for my feet now.

[Al]

Totally agree with Jameso - used primaloft stuff for years walking in mountains as a Chuck on when you stop layer. Taking one riding was a real light bulb moment. I’ve got a haglof one - bought a smaller size for a more cycling friendly fit.

[whitestone]

Temperature (and moisture) management is always tricky and the colder it gets then it becomes more and more important.

In January Cath and I did an ITI training course in Norway, here's some randomly ordered points from that about clothing, obviously aimed at super cold temperatures but the principles hold:

• Sweat is your worst enemy. Water transfers heat 7x more efficiently than air.
• Clothing should be snug, neither tight nor loose. If it's too tight then it may restrict bloodflow. the baselayer should be snug rather than loose to avoid there being air between your skin and the garment. Contact between skin and the base layer is necessary to allow moisture to move away from the body and through the baselayer to the outer layers.
• Consider the use of a mesh style vest as a base layer, it lifts the base layer off the skin but there's still contact to allow moisture to move and the "holes" trap air.
• Smell! bacteria don't like hair or wool so consider a mixed garment to avoid annoying others.
• Avoid bunching of clothing at points like boot tops. Try out new clothing items as part of the whole system to make sure it doesn't snag or create problems.
• outer layers should be BIG! so they can be put on over everything else rather than taking layers off to fit them.
• Skull caps often have a visor or peak, if you wear a balaclava over the top then the peak helps the balaclava move with your head from side to side.
• Jacket hood that goes over your helmet to avoid having to take your helmet off. Similarly a zip-up jacket rather than a pullover.
• Kineso tape or even duct tape on the bridge of your nose and the cheeks can be used to protect those areas from damp buffs, etc. sticking to them. Put on once and only take off after the race/event.
• Monitor your warmth at all times and be prepared to add or remove layers in accordance with how you feel and the prevailing conditions. If you know the next section is exposed then layer up before you get there rather than fight with the wind, etc.

We didn't really discuss specific brands of clothing so no help that way, it was more generic dissemination along the lines of "this has been shown to work".

Something we discussed on the course but I didn't add to the notes was that your torso is the main thermo-regulation part of your body (Heat generation is related to mass, heat loss is related to area.) so it makes more sense to have more insulation on your arms than your torso. Again this was for temps well below zero but the idea is to have the reverse setup to a gilet/body warmer with N+1 layers on your arms.

Start with what would be slightly uncomfortable standing around in still air and then add/remove stuff on top of that.

Anticipation of what's ahead helps - unzip, at least partially, your jacket before you get to climbs and zip it back up just as you reach the top to retain heat. If you are stopping at the top of a climb then have something like a synthetic puffer jacket to put on over the top of everything.

Allied to this is moderation of effort, the idea is to give your clothing a chance to do its job of removing sweat rather than overwhelm it. So ease off as much as you can on the climbs so you don't sweat, even if that means walking parts or even stop for a minute or two and take in the view. The best example of this are the Inuit who go about their tasks at the right level of effort for their clothing so that it keeps them warm but don't overheat.

Take buffs/snoods and put on/take off as necessary.

Bike riding is similar in terms of temperature regulation to ice climbing: periods of intense activity interspersed with rest/much lower heat generation. There really isn't a system that can cope with such a wide range of effort and heat without adding/removing layers (well there is, it's called a space suit!).

Down to around freezing I wouldn't have much more than a long sleeved thermal top combined with a zipped jacket for wind/rain protection - I did the 2018 BB200 (high winds and rain followed by clearing skies and dropping temps overnight) with just that and only got cold at about 2am when I stopped in Llandeilo for about 15mins to charge up my lights. For lower level efforts I'd add arm warmers to make sure my hands kept warm.

[jameso]

^ Sometimes I wonder if primaloft works better the colder it is - the inner layer picks up moisture from the base/mid layer (I tend to wear close-fitting tops) and the insulation wadding creates air space as well as a wicking medium that is helped by the cooled outer layer with plenty of air moving over it, so the warm air / moisture condenses and dries from the outer layer? That space and the temperature difference might be the critical bit in why they can keep me so warm + dry overall.
Plus, the 'shell' layers of a primaloft item are usually very breathable but overall it feels fairly wind proof.

It's a layer type / construction that makes me wonder if tight-fitting roadie influence in bike clothing has done us a disservice over the years.

[psling]

...makes me wonder if tight-fitting roadie influence in bike clothing has done us a disservice over the years.

Yes, roadie kit developed for racing which involves almost continuous heat generation and why you see the windproof gilets and jackets going on at the top of the cols (or newspapers being handed out by the spectators bitd).

The body produces sweat to cool itself, that layer of moisture to allow heat to dissipate on the surface. So, the minute you put clothes on, the system is compromised! A wicking baselayer will allow the sweat to wick away which makes us feel less clammy but doesn't really help the cooling process (which in nature is based on that layer of moisture being on the skin) so if we're working hard we just sweat more. When we stop working we cool down again so we need to insulate and the greatest cooling effect is wind-chill. So if you get to the point of cooling to the extent that you are feeling cold you need to insulate and stop wind-chill by adding appropriate layers as described in earlier posts above.
And that's where it gets tricky in choosing the right number and type of bits of clothing! All I can add to previous comments on clothing is the old advice that if you're wearing breathable clothing, the whole system needs to be compatible.

[whitestone]

Allied to what Peter wrote is the dew point - at some point the moisture vapour condenses as it moves along the temperature gradient between your skin and the environment. So whatever layer is around that point (it will shift slightly depending on conditions) needs to be able to handle that.

Worth noting that the human body is roughly 20-25% efficient in converting what we eat into useful energy, most of the rest is used to maintain body temperature or released as heat. Usefully there are 4.3 kJ per kCal so for back of the envelope calcs you can just swap units, i.e. if you eat 1000kCal you'll get about 1000kJoules of energy and about 3000kJoules of heat.

[Chrisps]

Thanks - found reading this thoroughly interesting!

Particularly intrigued about Primaloft. I've always seen that as "static insulation," so interesting that people find it works on bikes. Don't your arms get cold just wearing an insulated gilet with a LS baselayer?

That point about keeping your arms warmer than your core is interesting too - makes sense, although I guess the flip side is I find exposing my arms a good way of keeping cool on the ups.

The Rab Vapour Rise idea is a good one. Thinking about it, I did a WRT a few years back just wearing my VR (no baselayer) and that worked pretty well. I never thought of trying that in the winter I'll give that a go tomorrow

Anyway - good stuff! Thanks!

[Bearlegged]

Don't your arms get cold just wearing an insulated gilet with a LS baselayer?

I saw a piece once written by a road racing pro, who pointed out that your extremities get cold because your body prioritises keeping the core warm (vital organs and that).
His take was that if you keep the core warm, your body will look after the extremities (arms/hands/legs/feet).
This equates well with the idea of an insulated gilet and a L/S baselayer. But clashes with Whitestone's learning from ITI, that one should have more insulation on your arms than your torso. But also fits with psling's observation about road cycling being a good way to constantly generate body heat.
So, I think it depends. How fast/slow are you riding? High efforts, or gentle steady pedalling?
Also, factor in conditions. This morning, my core was toasty as you like, but my feet and hands were wet, and consequently cold.

[jameso]

I think Landslide's point about core/extremities is right. And no amount core warmth can do much for wind-chilled hands and feet.
I only use primaloft as a gilet unless it's bad (like a storm high up in the Alps sort of grim, where a PL jacket over the gilet and under a WP isn't ott for going down hill) and generally a std LS jersey on, maybe with a LS base under it.

I should add that I use it mostly for long steady rides, if I'm at the sort of intensity I might be at on a short road ride it gets a bit warm unless I use the Endura FS260 on a cold day. Primaloft (a 40gsm I think) is fine on steady road miles, and the SS where the pace varies between climbing grunt and spinning along a towpath. I use the Decathlon Forclaz for winter MTB, cheap and really effective.

[Lazarus]

Is the arms things not just simply that your core will always be warmer than extremeties so at serious winter temperatures, in order to keep extremeties warm, you need more insulation on them than our core which will remain heated?


I am not sure it really matters at typical england winter temps but i am sure it does high up and in the North of Scotland

[whitestone]

An update on the arms/core point.

Yesterday I was over at my brother's doing some walling, actually taking an old wall down and digging the footings ready to rebuild it. Temps were 3C or so for most of the day warming up in late afternoon (5C by the car's thermometer when I headed home), no wind. Also all the stone was dry so no cooling effect due to moisture. I'd three layers (thermal, t-shirt and jumper) on my torso and just the thermal and jumper on my arms. I also had a buff around my neck for all of the day and wore gloves. None of this is tight or restricting.

On occasion I'd be lightly sweating around my neck and on my back but my hands were cool bordering on cold for most of the time.

Next time I'm over I'll stick some arm warmers on as well and see how that goes.

[voodoo_simon]

Thought I’d try some of the recommendations from this thread. This time of the year, I’d be thin base later, thick cycle top or think fleece for mid and a wind jacket over the top coupled with wind proof bibs*

Kept with the bibs and jackets but tried a primaloft gillet for the mid layer. For the first 15 minutes or so, I felt colder and was cursing Jameso My arms certainly felt the cold but then after 15 minutes or so, I warmed up and soon became toasty. Wasn’t have enough to ride without the wind jacket to expose the arms. Will be going back to this setup for the cold days


Was 4C out tonight and was damp but no rain


*I really feel the cold

[whitestone]

This weekend's efforts saw me with Roubaix bibs, Rab midweight long sleeved top with Planet-X merino arm warmers, Windstopper jacket over that lot. Alpkit merino buff. Gloves were an odd couple of Specialized winter glove and a Black Diamond ice climbing glove (they are both black )

Jacket and thermal were unzipped about halfway down for the climbs. At the top I'd zip up and put the buff on. No problems with overheating or getting chilled. Feet did get cold towards the end of today but that was as much the amount of mud and water we were riding through, the bibs were soaked to above the knee.