Remember when we were discussing ...

[Cheeky Monkey]

I keep reading back bits of this thread. Consequently I've edited my last post.

I'm of the opinion that encouraging everyone is the most important thing and a healthy dose of Rule 1.

I tend to oppose "positive discrimination" because I suspect to some extent it maintains or perpetuates some barriers even though it might be used for what seem like good reasons.

I'm ambivalent about the make-up of the BPing population. Given the tiny subset of people who do it that I know of i.e. peeps on here, I've no real way of knowing whether there's proportional representation of the rainbow world or not. I'm suspicious of anyone who's adamant that is or isn't "balanced", to some extent. Itd be crass to poll everyone to "check its right" and even then, what does "right" look like and how would *you* know?

Hey ho

NB feel free to treat any questions herein as rhetorical

Edit - having just read Chew's post I think he's got it over better than me

[Taylor]

“I’ve just taken them for the person they are, rather than a number of labels.“

Chew has pretty much nailed what I mean, I’ll happily ride with anybody that wants to get lost on a hillside in Wales, to me it’s irrelevant what sex, colour or orientation that person is, I’ll happily ride and chew their ear off.
Why should it matter that the BB forum is predominantly made up of middle aged, white, blah, blah, blah.
If minorities/under privileged want to get involved, that’s fine, but I don’t see a queue of these people beating Stu’s virtual door down. If they’re not interested in riding bikes, sleeping under hedges, pack rafting, climbing, walking, etc, etc, you can’t make them, just for somebody to tick a box and feel that they’ve succeeded in making the world a nicer place.
The forum is free(feeding the bear is good though), anybody could come on here and ask for help with borrowing kit/bikes but I don’t see the requests.

Maybe these non white, non male, non middle aged, non middle class, etc. aren’t interested in joining a bunch of weirdos spending money to live like a tramp.

[jameso]

But isn’t that a presumption in itself?

I don't think so, not for some people who've had past experience of people who've been abusive, held them back, etc(in the UK, good chance it was someone looking like us but of course not exclusively and that's not really the point here). People who have been on the receiving end of that includes women as well as people who experience racism. I'm not saying you and I don sackcloth and ashes to make up for what some other ------s have done or that white men are the only problem... but it is quite shocking to hear from someone very close to you what they've experienced along these lines and how it can set up a radar for that behaviour. Makes it easy to understand why someone else with their background/gender/etc might look at me and think "Is he one of 'them'?" as they figure out a situation. "Are they going to be actively making my life worse in some way because of who I am?". That's a normal though process for too many people. Sad isn't it.

That's why I think what Lazarus said about being an ally makes sense. We don't have to be, no-one is forced to. It would help though and I think the world needs more positivity and empathy. Why not make a first positive move in a small way sometimes.

I’ll happily ride with anybody that wants to get lost on a hillside in Wales, to me it’s irrelevant what sex, colour or orientation that person is, I’ll happily ride and chew their ear off.

I've never for a moment thought or sensed anything other than this from people I've met through dossing around on bikes, or on here. I think that the general Q of participation and representation here comes up as a reflection of the people on here and current social change. Bikepacking is way too niche to easily or rapidly see any changes in participation. What's good to see is that the topic's coming up, I'd hope that it's read as an open door. One opened by some well-meaning if slightly odd/niche hobby types who might be stumbling along with the topic not knowing the best way forward while going off on conversation tangents. Sounds a bit like a average ride in Wales!

[redefined_cycles]

No, not at all, just that having this 'promoted' as part of the UK's Number 1 Bikepacking site* may be more impactful than a group of randoms trying to do it!




*This may not actually be true, but I am sure the BearBones is almost certainly in the top 63 Bikepacking sites in the UK!

Most people would testify that I'm generally very easy going but at this moment in time, I'm wondering why you don't just f*ck off. No offence obviously.

I agree

[Dave Barter]

Just a random thought. If we are honest bikepacking is to some extent about relishing discomfort having gone from comfort. When your life is mainly discomfort you probably yearn for comfort and that’s why we see less representation of certain minorities who are already having a tough time of it.

[RIP]

^ +lots

[RIP]

^ +lots

Making it worse than we thought - we're overprivileged, male, middleaged, white, straight, and whatever all the other things were (Waitrose-shoppers?) .

Dave's got it there though. Plus, as I was wittering on with Pete, it's compounded with some cultures/groups seeing being outdoors as 'failing' - what, you're having a horrible time outdoors when any successful person is driving in their Merc to an indoor gym? It's been reinforced in this country in the past, eg "still travelling on buses at 25 means you've failed" etc.

Contrarily though, JC's innercity Liver Lads would probably relish bikepacking as a way of escaping their problems so this argument works both ways.

Sigh!

[redefined_cycles]

Just a random thought. If we are honest bikepacking is to some extent about relishing discomfort having gone from comfort. When your life is mainly discomfort you probably yearn for comfort and that’s why we see less representation of certain minorities who are already having a tough time of it.

Always knew you was a genius Dave B... Now you just confirmed it...

[Bearbonesnorm]

"if I had to explain, you wouldn't understand" ... that probably applies to bikepacking as much as it does anything else. It really doesn't hold universal appeal. It's not even that appealing to white middle class, middle aged men who already cycle on a regular basis.

No, as mentioned way back, there are other outdoor activities with a much broader appeal and perhaps better PR. Get people interested in those and a progression / sideshift / whatever towards bikepacking might follow. Again, already mentioned but many within the bikepacking community arrived at their current location via another interest.

Nurture any interest wherever it grows.

[RIP]

Just to continue stirring the pot (what, me?), when we arrange these 'encouragement events' are we going to be sanitising or toning down what 'Boners are all about?

Whilst the 'being welcoming and encouraging' is a given, if we make out that you don't have to sleep in ditches to 'be a bikepacker' then my personal view is we're selling out our Bonerness.

We *like* waking up with a slug on the end of our nose. In the village of eccentrics called bikepackers, we are the village eccentric.

So it seems unlikely that 'Boners' - specifically as 'Boners rather than bikepackers - are the correct demographic to run introductory courses/events.

What ARE Boners all about?

[RIP]

(my post crossed with Stu's and seems remarkably similar. 'Better PR' )

[redefined_cycles]

PR. Get people interested in those and a progression / sideshift / whatever towards bikepacking might follow. Again, already mentioned but many within the bikepacking community arrived at their current location via another interest.

Nurture any interest wherever it grows.

This is basically what I did to the young roadie when i sent him the Acepac TT bag. Even though he was staying in hostels or wotnot, he'll slowly come to learn that he he slept in a glorious bush he'd have got more done...

There's also a mate of mine (aquaintance, just talked via telgram message a couple times cos he bought a cassette off me) who's an islamic scholar. Young lad, asian, muslim, bearded, short 'tache', smily, scary looking, thin... Anyways, so I like to think I inspired him to get out to the great nasty climbs (roadie version) of the UK via Strava. Recently he must've gotten sick of how much its costing and maybe got word of my bikepacking-ditch sleep ventures.

Anyway, seen a recwnt ride of his with a NatureHike tent pitched up BPing in the peaks. Went to bag some more climbs and obviously learnt this is more effective of getting there n back. No petrol involved result.

I just congratulated him, don't wanna make him feel I'm overly excited. Also... well, there was an also but I forget so it must've been a 'who cares' type...

[redefined_cycles]

Oh.. The also. So when I make any routes aimed at the roadies (I have real trouble getting many roadies wanting to ride my routes), I try and add a little off road here and a few roots n shoots there. Slowly but surely (from my personal perspective) though some people cannot be helped. Like my posh mate Ibn (Hussain...literally Son of Hussain, proper name), who has a Colnago. Never get him sleeping in a posh tent, never mind a bivvy or ditch. Almost convinced him to the YHA benefits though

[Bearbonesnorm]

Like my posh mate Ibn (Hussain...literally Son of Hussain, proper name), who has a Colnago. Never get him sleeping in a posh tent, never mind a bivvy or ditch. Almost convinced him to the YHA benefits though

Aye and I'd wager that it has nothing to do with his race, religion or which side he bats for, 'tis simply his character, his likes and dislikes (which may or may not have been shaped by those other factors but hey, we'll never really know).

[redefined_cycles]

Like my posh mate Ibn (Hussain...literally Son of Hussain, proper name), who has a Colnago. Never get him sleeping in a posh tent, never mind a bivvy or ditch. Almost convinced him to the YHA benefits though

Aye and I'd wager that it has nothing to do with his race, religion or which side he bats for, 'tis simply his character, his likes and dislikes (which may or may not have been shaped by those other factors but hey, we'll never really know).

Spot on Stu... We're an unusual lot aren't we and so misunderstood

[Lazarus]

Why should it matter that the BB forum is predominantly made up of middle aged, white, blah, blah, blah.

It matters because the lived experience of BAME and LBQTIA+ [ and women still ] is that they experience both overt and indirect discrimination- often by that demographic. They have been abused by people and discriminated by them – not something your average straight white male experiences. When you are likely [ or its even a possibility] to be the only one in a group, and you have faced abuse in the past and will in the present, it takes courage to step into that environment and we can either encourage this with a few words or discourage it with a few words
Personally I would rather say this

We realise that Bikepacking is underrepresented by certain groups and we wish these groups and people to know we actively embrace and support their participation .

Than this
Why should it matter that the BB forum is predominantly made up of middle aged, white, blah, blah, blah.

I don’t believe for a second anyone on here is discriminatory and I agree its hardly the most global appeal of activities but it does not take any real effort to have a caveat that we embrace everyone daft enough to pedal tiil they drop and then sleep in a ditch.

[Lazarus]

But isn’t that a presumption in itself?

What part ? cycling is white and male dominated ? or that under represented groups need encouragement to join in with the activity they are currently not joining in with.?

[Cheeky Monkey]

Just to continue stirring the pot (what, me?), when we arrange these 'encouragement events' are we going to be sanitising or toning down what 'Boners are all about?

I doubt there'll be any events Reg Best of luck if anyone does but I suspect it's more a "blue-sky" idea than a "ditch" reality.

Lazarus - doesn't this

Nurture any interest wherever it grows.

, which seems to me to be the attitude expressed by a lot of people (posting on this thread) pretty much equate to

We realise that Bikepacking is underrepresented by certain groups and we wish these groups and people to know we actively embrace and support their participation.

?

[Lazarus]

if so why would anyone have an issue with explicitly stating it ?

Some of us are getting rolly eyes for suggesting the idea of an event I will let you decide how anyone reading that from those communities would interpret it.
Welcoming or dismissive?

[Cheddar Man]

for me its not people but specific people. more people who aren't straight white cis middleclass men

Exactly this

Have you chaps asked anyone who isn't white/straight/middle class/male/etc whether they would like to join in?

Yes, I am a nurse, a couple of us took out a small group of our female colleagues who fancied doing an overnighter but individually were too worried.

So, yes.

[Bearbonesnorm]

Some of us are getting rolly eyes for suggesting the idea of an event

I don't actually recall 'rolly eyes' but I could have missed it. However, either way up, I don't think anyone would dismiss it but they may question the practicalities of such a thing. Ideas are often ten a penny* but turning them into something viable / workable is much more difficult.


*not dismissive, simply a turn of phrase.

[Cheddar Man]

Some of us are getting rolly eyes for suggesting the idea of an event

I don't actually recall 'rolly eyes' but I could have missed it. However, either way up, I don't think anyone would dismiss it but they may question the practicalities of such a thing. Ideas are often ten a penny* but turning them into something viable / workable is much more difficult.


*not dismissive, simply a turn of phrase.

You did tell me to F**k off though!

But moving on, from that, would this be a thing that you as the site owner would be willing to look in to and associate the BBB site with?

Seriously, I am willing to see is this would work, but I don't want to do anything if you aren't happy that the brand you have created is associated with it.

[Cheeky Monkey]

I don't think the two (my rolled eyes about events several posts up) and you being told to do one are linked.

Oh, and I'm not sure what the right expression is but you seem to be rather tone-deaf / to have a tin ear for the mood of some things. Just saying, no offence intended

[redefined_cycles]

Maybe we should get some pandas going here... let me go find some cute ones. One mo.

[redefined_cycles]

Right then... Three lovely pandas for whomsoever wishes one... Feel free to share*.







*"Sharing is caring" as my uncle (ILWIR/RIP) Hajji Sufi Asghar used to say...