Remember when we were discussing ...

[lune ranger]

Yep.
It’s a hobby.
Not a religion, it’s not important. It really doesn’t matter if it dies out with the current crop of dinosaurs or takes over the world.

[Cheddar Man]

...I have read recently about encouraging more people to go bikepacking - I don't quite understand why people think we need more people doing it?...

for me its not people but specific people. more people who aren't straight white cis middleclass men

Exactly this

[MuddyPete]

for me its not people but specific people. more people who aren't straight white cis middleclass men

Exactly this

Have you chaps asked anyone who isn't white/straight/middle class/male/etc whether they would like to join in?

[ScotRoutes]

I have encouraged, cajoled and advised quite a few.

[Lazarus]

As have I and i have managed to have moderate sucess with two people who do now get out and about bikepacking

Its one of those, for whatever reason, cycling is largely a straight white male thing and it could do with some diversity /wider appeal

[RIP]

I have encouraged, cajoled and advised quite a few.

Yes I was chatting with Pete about it the other night. Did you get any feedback from any who took things further after one's encouragement? I was out walking with Mrs Perrin last weekend on a popular Herts "green way" and we were overtaken by a group of probably 15 or so chaps of East African descent on machines of varying off-road suitability. Didn't manage to engage any in conversation but it would have been interesting to hear their "story". Most were quite wobbly so presumably new to the game. Certainly no BP gear on display, so perhaps they're building up to it gradually . They were enjoying themselves so that's the main thing!

[holdsteady]

Its one of those, for whatever reason, cycling is largely a straight white male thing and it could do with some diversity /wider appeal

maybe it is true and cycling really is the new golf I hope not

[Bearbonesnorm]

When I was coaching / guiding, I'd perhaps take 5 or 6 folk out a year on overnight trips. That was obviously a tiny percentage of the actual number of people I saw. I'm probably right in saying that apart from a few, most enjoyed the experience but that was it. They didn't continue with it by themselves later*.

The interesting thing is that I had a 50/50 mix between men / women** and perhaps also worth noting is that, this was before bikepacking had reached the current dizzy heights of popularity, so I'm fairly sure that if I were to do something similar now, the take up rate would be somewhat greater.

*Had they had interested friends or some kind of social network in place maybe that would have been different.

**Be interesting to see if that would still hold true. Most of the women I did take out said they enjoyed it because there was no push toward performance, speed, etc - is that still true*** or is the public face of bikepacking presented with an ultra and ITT slant?

***we know it's not true and most trips for most people could well be described as 'bimble' or 'amble'.

[Taylor]

"straight white cis middleclass men"

Why do you want people who are the exact opposite of the above?
Why not just have people?
Who cares if they're Straight, white, cis(hate that term with a passion), middle class or male?
Why pigeon hole somebody for something they have no control over?
Surely that's discrimnation?

[RIP]

That was another thing that Pete and I discussed, Taylor. When stated, it sounds like someone isn't taking it seriously, but that's not always the case. Labels, labels, genes, genes. I said a while ago - we're all Africans basically. Then again, I think here the aim is to encourage "people" who might not otherwise take up bikepacking and exploring the background to why they don't. "discrimination" in the aforementioned situation is "positive discrimination", an equally unwieldy term - how about "positive encouragement"?

[psling]

straight white cis middleclass men

Skin colour and gender are generally noticeable when you see another cyclist (or bikepacker) but unless the rider is wearing a big sign how can you determine sexual preference, class or religion. What I mean is that without some sort of comprehensive survey we don't actually know that the "straight white etc." thing is still totally accurate.

[RIP]

The Venn diagram of "characteristics" for want of a better word always interests me. There's all sorts of overlaps (sorry, intersections), never mind the fact that the 8 billion individuals on the planet are all different in some larger or smaller way, as well as being so similar. People from the Erewash Valley rarely get a mention. Certain groupings get mentions but it's not always clear exactly what the group's shared characteristic(s) is/are or why they are being highlighted. When intersections also get taken into account it starts to get rather complex, especially when those (all?) intersections are so blurred. This blurring is just one reason that makes any attempt at describing a set of elements as "pure" or "superior" or "inferior" such a vile proposition.

[Cheeky Monkey]

"straight white cis middleclass men"

Why do you want people who are the exact opposite of the above?
Why not just have people?
Who cares if they're Straight, white, cis(hate that term with a passion), middle class or male?
Why pigeon hole somebody for something they have no control over?
Surely that's discrimnation?

I stepped away from the conversation when that was posted as I couldn't be sure whether it was serious or not.



All I could think of was this:

https://twitter.com/i/status/1010189882503950336





EDIT - for the avoidance of doubt the bit I couldn't make my mind up about was the "straight white cis middleclass men" bit as originally posted by shutupthepunx I just lazily copied Taylor's post and it *might* be confusing to some I'm of the opinion that you just encourage everyone and try to follow Rule 1 as much as possible.

[ScotRoutes]

"straight white cis middleclass men"

Why do you want people who are the exact opposite of the above?
Why not just have people?
Who cares if they're Straight, white, cis(hate that term with a passion), middle class or male?
Why pigeon hole somebody for something they have no control over?
Surely that's discrimnation?

It doesn't have to be the "exact opposite", it's just that most participants fall under ALL of those categories.

And sometimes positive discrimination is required.

[RIP]

And sometimes positive discrimination is required.

I'm going to gently push again for "positive encouragement" instead. Less loaded. And you yourself admirably used "encouragement" Colin . "Discrimination" has been defined as "the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people, especially on the grounds of race, age, or sex". I remember when "especially" was omitted, so it seems there's, rightly, acknowledgement of discrimination other than race, age or sex. So if that's the definition, "positive discrimination" is rather a confusing mouthful. It's also unlawful in the UK - "Positive discrimination is generally unlawful in the UK. For example, an employer recruiting a person because he or she has a relevant protected characteristic rather than because he or she is the best candidate would be committing discrimination under the Equality Act 2010. It is also unlawful to set quotas to recruit or promote a specific number or proportion of people with a particular protected characteristic.". Now THAT has confused me - discrimination against people who are not usually discriminated against .

Is it Friday?

[ScotRoutes]

Call it what you want but there are plenty examples of events etc being arranged only for women, so that's "discrimination" with a positive slant and is relevant to the topic being discussed.

[Lazarus]

I stepped away from the conversation when that was posted as I couldn't be sure whether it was serious or not.

As Did i and i am fairly confident it was serious straught white men often write like that but those they are talking about never do.

I cannot believe we are still having this debate - if you have still not realised as a straight white male that the world is not as accommodating for others who dont fit that criteria then i dont think a discussion on this forum is going to lead you to an epiphany

Under represented groups need encouragement if for no other reason than to to make them know we welcome people of all descriptions and we are an ally [ one for the woke amongst you ] and its just a misfortunate statistic that this forum/sport is mainly older white male ,middle class and straight

[jameso]

Under represented groups need encouragement if for no other reason than to to make them know we welcome people of all descriptions and we are an ally

Good point and that last word might be the most relevant.

[Bearbonesnorm]

Someone who doesn't wish to register but is a regular lurker, has just emailed and has this to say ...

Compare results for Google image search: Backpacking versus Bikepacking.
The former is predominantly younger and shows people in exotic locations;
the latter concentrates on the bicycle!

See the problem? Bikepacking isn't (perceived as) sexy.

Me, I've no idea what they could possibly mean

[SeannyD]

What’s cis? mean. Listened to The Downtime podcast today on Racism in Mountain Biking, didn’t think there was any but I was wrong, interesting listen. (Disclosure white middle age bloke, not religious or middle class)

[Lazarus]

Cissexual was coined in the mid 1990s by a German sexologist. He used the Latin preposition cis, meaning "on this side of," as a contrast to transsexual, trans being the Latin for "on the other side of" or "across." The phrase, eventually morphing into cisgender, picked up steam in gender and sexuality studies throughout the late 1990s and early 2000s.

In practical terms its means the gender* matches the Sex * you were prescribed at birth


* they really are not the same thing where by sex is generally biological and gender is largely psychological - I simplify a complicated point massively here to give a brief overview

[ScotRoutes]

Compare results for Google image search: Backpacking versus Bikepacking.
The former is predominantly younger and shows people in exotic locations;
the latter concentrates on the bicycle!

Aye, but that's because "backpacking" is usually now used to refer to packaged/guided trips to such exotic locations as the Grand Canyon, Machu Picchu and Angkor Wat. it's as far removed from your typical crusty backpacking trip round the damper bits of Wales and Scotland as you can get. It also gives us an indication of where popularity and commercialism might take bikepacking in a few years.

[SeannyD]

Cissexual was coined in the mid 1990s by a German sexologist. He used the Latin preposition cis, meaning "on this side of," as a contrast to transsexual, trans being the Latin for "on the other side of" or "across." The phrase, eventually morphing into cisgender, picked up steam in gender and sexuality studies throughout the late 1990s and early 2000s.

In practical terms its means the gender* matches the Sex * you were prescribed at birth


* they really are not the same thing where by sex is generally biological and gender is largely psychological - I simplify a complicated point massively here to give a brief overview

Cheers Lazarus

[JohnClimber]

There's a great group in Liverpool of disadvantages kids to stop them joining knife gangs

They are famous for wheelie'ing in groups through the city centre with full Police support.

They say "Knives Down Wheels Up" and "Knives Down Bikes Up"

https://liverpedlaapool.co.uk/

I think this would be the a great group to approach to start with, as there are some great spots for small groups north of the city centre in the Formby woods

[Chew]

Under represented groups need encouragement if for no other reason than to to make them know we welcome people of all descriptions and we are an ally [ one for the woke amongst you ] and its just a misfortunate statistic that this forum/sport is mainly older white male ,middle class and straight

But isn’t that a presumption in itself?

Given the many people I’ve ridden with over the years, I’ve just taken them for the person they are, rather than a number of labels.
I get the feeling that everyone else on here has the same mindset?