Improving Bikepacking

[Mythste]

Let's play a game for a second and look at the cost of starting from nothing to something capable. (from new for the sake of having something to start from) Consider all values as "ish"! I'm looking at good value, proven kit and a summer jaunt.

Bike: Bizango - £600
Bikapacking bags (Frame, Seat, Bar), Planet X - £75
Sleeping bag - Highstreet (Blacks, Cotswolds, etc) £50
Sleeping mat - Highstreet - £30
Tent/Bivvy - Highstreet - £100
Map - £20
Cycling kit - Decathlon? £100 for a few layers inc gloves and socks etc?
Cooking kit - Decathlon? £50?

That takes you to £975 from nothing. Or £375 if you already have a bike, or £275 if you already have suitable clothes. I don't want to get into the nitty gritty of trying to save in the current economic climate (Because I don't have all the answers), but over a few months that's not an inconceivable amount for someone to save enough to get out and enjoy a few nights of wilderness.

To summarise, I don't think the price is much different compared to any other hobbyist cycling endeavor. Plus, with all of the above, you would have a bicycle for other things and camping/trekking kit that can be used in isolation too.

Starting to look like a good value persuit to me!

[benp1]

Interesting replies. I came from a hiking type background, so when I got into cycling moving into bikepacking was a natural move. I think going the other way feels slightly less natural. The main challenges are the same - where will I sleep, how will I look after myself, what if.... Being on a bike just gets you around faster, and you need some mechanical confidence. I suppose a lot of my kit is used for walking/hiking anyway so I had most of it to start with. Just needed some bikepacking bags and got those on the cheap

Slightly left field, but do you think the demographics of bikepacking are different to hiking? Do less women do the former than the latter? I'm not sure, but making either/both closer to 50:50 would be a big improvement. Less about being tough, more about having fun. Some of best trips might have had hard bits, but above all they were fun. The kit helps remove downsides (hardships like getting wet, being cold, carrying weight etc), but it doesn't create more fun necessarily

[Bearbonesnorm]

Camp fire, discussions

It was going so well until that point

I think for anyone starting their journey, having a friend or friends to do it with makes a massive difference. It's not uncommon to hear "but none of my mates are interested". If you're not inclined to go solo, then it's either try and find someone to tag along with or say bollox to it and take up golf.

However, it's never going to be handed to anyone on a plate and really, nor should it be. There's more sources of bikepacking / wildcamping info freely available than ever before. Granted, some is of little value and may even send you stumbling down the wrong track but there is good stuff to be had if you look.

Kit has never been this cheap or plentiful. A rucksack, basic sleeping bag and some poly sheet doesn't really cost much and in reality is all that's required to sample a simple no frills trip. You'll not be doing the HT with it (probably) but you will get a taste of things. If your aspirations are higher than a night in the local woods, then the investment will rise but isn't that the same with everything?

Events are another thing that have increased massively over recent years. Certainly those with a high profile probably won't suit someone starting out but there's a reasonable amount that will - the WRT is perhaps a good example and thanks to the efforts of chew, Reg, John and Cath provide an open doorway for those not having ventured out before. I myself have conducted numerous 'workshops' over the years at various events and while there's always interest, people aren't exactly banging to doors down to avail themselves of an equal mix of wisdom and sarcasm Maybe I should start the Bear Bones Broadcasting Corporation on Youtube?

Having just reread the thread, I think the message seems to be advocacy and ease of information but even with those in place, there's still some hurdles that can only be overcome by the individual concerned.

[Mythste]

Interesting replies. I came from a hiking type background, so when I got into cycling moving into bikepacking was a natural move. I think going the other way feels slightly less natural. The main challenges are the same - where will I sleep, how will I look after myself, what if.... Being on a bike just gets you around faster, and you need some mechanical confidence. I suppose a lot of my kit is used for walking/hiking anyway so I had most of it to start with. Just needed some bikepacking bags and got those on the cheap

Slightly left field, but do you think the demographics of bikepacking are different to hiking? Do less women do the former than the latter? I'm not sure, but making either/both closer to 50:50 would be a big improvement. Less about being tough, more about having fun. Some of best trips might have had hard bits, but above all they were fun. The kit helps remove downsides (hardships like getting wet, being cold, carrying weight etc), but it doesn't create more fun necessarily

I ride with an incredibly strong mountain biker who is 56. She has voiced safety concerns about bikepacking alone but would gladly do it in a group. Without wishing to be too contentious, I do believe women are more risk averse then men in cycling* and it is clear from my experiences and some others in this thread, perceived risk in bikepacking is high.

*This is based on studies I helped facilitate a few years ago in the Greater Manchester area to analyse the suspected disparity between male and female commuters.

[middleagedmadness]

I think for anyone starting their journey, having a friend or friends to do it with makes a massive difference. It's not uncommon to hear "but none of my mates are interested". If you're not inclined to go solo, then it's either try and find someone to tag along with or say bollox to it and take up golf.

^^^ this , a fews back when only just on the forum put a little post up anybody about in near my area , dropped exceptionally luck as Scott said to come down to salop , where I had the pleasure of meeting the eating machine known as mike from bromsgrove , to follow was a good few pints a slip and slide up the top of brown clee a-6 night spent in a old vaude tent I had and a totally inappropriate sleeping bag , from that I had loads of good trips with Scott and mike , then came along wrt with the lhc which is were things turned strange with meeting reg but again a good few very wet trips have been had with him and others
If you WANT to get out there’s always someone who’s willing to take you with them it may just take a bit of effort to find them

[songololo]

Maybe I should start the Bear Bones Broadcasting Corporation on Youtube

BBC might have a go at you there...

In case my comments gave the wrong impression, as a relative newcomer to bikepacking I've found online resources and the ever increasing abundance of bikepacking gear tremendously helpful. The camaraderie and richness of information available on this forum has also been invaluable.

My main concern for newcomers is the knowledge and confidence gap. If someone is fortunate --- maybe they have some semi-suitable equipment or old camping gear, maybe they know someone --- then they can join the dots and make it work. But there are also many others that might find it overwhelming and intimidating to start and this is where gentler and semi-supported introductions are useful. The impressive 'Girls Riding Into Tomorrow' example being a case in point.

[woodsmith]

However, it's never going to be handed to anyone on a plate and really, nor should it be. There's more sources of bikepacking / wildcamping info freely available than ever before. Granted, some is of little value and may even send you stumbling down the wrong track but there is good stuff to be had if you look.



The huge volume of information available is in a way part of the problem for a neophyte who lacks the knowledge to sort the wheat from the chaff.

With many other sports/hobbies/past times for someone with a newfound interest there's often fixed point of contact ( club house, climbing gym etc) or club website ( road cycling, Ramblers etc). Bikepacking lacks either of these and the chances of bumping into someone actively doing it, from personal experience, seem very slim.

The vast majority of organised rides where beginners could meet like minded people are ITT/race focussed and completely unsuitable and others seem to be a money spinning venture for the organisers ( 80 quid for a GPX track, a sticker and a T-shirt, seriously?).

So, maybe part of the solution is more organised, overnight, non-competetive group rides.

[jameso]

Plus, with all of the above, you would have a bicycle for other things and camping/trekking kit that can be used in isolation too.

It's very good value isn't it? Kit that encourages a good lifestyle in more ways than one, with all the benefits benconnolli's post covers.

This is all an interesting read on bikepacking for beginners. If we agreed that the cost wasn't too prohibitive and the process of learning the ropes isn't any more difficult than the reality of the pass-time, or vs other outdoors activities, what's left? I'm tempted to say from a physical product POV, almost nothing commercially realistic that's not already found in the market. That leaves services and technology, apps etc. I can think of some theoretical opportunities in mapping, GPS and googlemaps for services as well as physical services - perhaps a combination of both - based on an assumption that fulfilling the brief grows the market. A few market conditions that are a tailwind for these ideas right now.

Also - MaM's post suggests my comment about the 'litmus test' of solo riding is basically bollocks so it's just my own experience (equally happy as a solo rider, hiker, bikepacker as in a group). Self-reliance can still be developed in a group, of course.

[jameso]

So, maybe part of the solution is more organised, overnight, non-competetive group rides.

I really don't know why there aren't more of these. Chew mentioned how so many want an 'Event T-shirt' kind of tick from things. Benp1 mentioned gender mix and I think more women in cycling might tone down some of the competitive/stats-driven BS in cycling - but that's also something I could (fairly) be taken down for as a massive generalisation and I can think of a few reasons why. But I'll say it anyway, as a massive generalisation that's it's meant positively.

[Bearbonesnorm]

This year (before all the virus stuff) it was announced that there'd be a female only LHC at the WRT. How many takers were there? Exactly none.

Do we as bikepackers perhaps perceive there to be a far greater interest out there than actually exists?

[RIP]

Can't top Stu's post earlier but that's never stopped me from raving on...

Reckon the thread will come to its natural end soon as we've covered most things, although it was good to see some "different" angles from newer people in the last few posts to compare with those from old salts.

The person I'm most keen to hear from now is Jacob!

From his post the key words (arg, I've gone all MBA (no, that MBA not that MBA)) are "beginners", "bikepacking", "improved" and "industry".

Have we addressed those four words Jacob?

"Bikepacking" is indefinable almost, however generally it's not bike-touring with one or more of campsites, B&B's, a route, "sightseeing", "comforts" (sorry Tim).

The Venn diagram seems to split into a/ those who ride TLS/LNT to a seriously physically/mentally challenging format, often with timed aims or route aims, such as the amazing feats we read about from Trep, Barter, Sean and many others, and b/ layabouts like me. Of course there are overlaps and outliers.

Group A by definition are not beginners, so we can discount them here . There's a chance that an expert, say, backpacker or climber, will aim to switch to bikepacking, and will have enough experience to select kit and mindset quickly without help. They’re not beginners either.

So Group B, some of who may be beginners. Group B1 is experienced layabouts, so ignore them as non-beginners too.

It might also be Group B2 an amateur walker or cyclist who’s heard about bikepacking and wants to give it a go. We must assume they’ve read a bit about it or talked to a “bikepacker” (or how will they know what they’re aiming to try?), so they will know that it isn’t “touring” and involves TLS and LNT to whatever extent and probably more self-reliance/self-supportedness. They will also have twigged that it usually involves wildcamping. It might also be Group B3, someone who has very little idea about it but spontaneously fancies a night out in the woods.

Group B3 has quite good motivation to just “try” it in as quick a way as possible. I must agree that there is a barrier if the person lives in a city with no nearby wildcamping spot – but the only thing the “industry” can do about that is offer a paid “course” outside the city, which costs money that Group B3 may well not have. So, this person does not need £1000 worth of gear. I have a concrete example of my friend’s teenage son. He and some friends simply used their cheap Halfords MTBs, the cheap sleeping bags from family camping trips and super-cheap popup tents from Millets. They took no cooking gear but loads of fun snacks and sweets. Easily carried in a rucsac and bungied to a pannier rack. They rode 2 miles to some public woodland. Note that it was SUMMER and GOOD WEATHER and they were CLOSE TO HOME (and, ahem, unknown to them dad followed discreetly and bivvied 200 yards away ;-)). Surely any age beginner would realise those three things were essential. They had a fantastic time, sleeping bags got drinks spilled on them, they stayed up til midnight, etc. Later one was taken by dad to the Peaks and offered a short route and a wildcamp spot and off he went. He is now GRADUALLY and ITERATIVELY improving his kit & knowledge and refining his mindset. All the aforementioned applies to any age, and I would risk saying gender/background too. All this beginner needs from the industry is to be offered myriad kit options, and all they need themselves is to remember TLS and LNT so should be selective. So yes you certainly can just "get out there and wing it with not much gear or experience".

Group B2 is the amateur walkers/cyclists/etc who fancy branching out to this TLS/LNT thing. They may be slightly less motivated than Group B3. They need a “course” from the industry (which includes things like Stu’s courses, and all the other ones). They will be provided with support, probably an experienced buddy, and maybe some kit (hired sleeping bag… sounds a bit unhygienic without costly washes etc… hmm!). They may be asked to bring whatever kit they have. But again, they do not have to spend MUCH at this point, given the basics of bike/bags/shelter/sleepingbag. We know very heavy stuff can be carried on a bike, and the course will not take them far so no problem there - they'll learn how heavy stuff is in a safe environment . The course will major on TLS and LNT. Given those two things, Group B2 will either stop (not for them), or do something similar to Group B3 – local woods in the summer. Basically they have been given the motivation and mindset – by the industry.

B2 and B3 will then set out on their mental and physical journey. They will GRADUALLY realise their sleeping bag is too heavy so will save and replace, same for all their other kit. As weight is lowered and kit acquired they will GRADUALLY expand their horizons. All the industry is now doing is offering information, and kit that can be bought or ignored.

So I think we come back to the industry offers beginners courses to motivate and mindset, and a wide variety of kit to gradually acquire as desired. People will make their own decisions, and if they don't who are we to force them.

Group C of course is those who might be inner-city, have no money at all, and little motivation....

Jacob?

'Reg'

[middleagedmadness]

Also - MaM's post suggests my comment about the 'litmus test' of solo riding is basically bollocks so it's just my own experience (equally happy as a solo rider, hiker, bikepacker as in a group). Self-reliance can still be developed in a group, of course.

Not really James it each to their own , I’d just had 12months sat on my arse with various bits of metal screwed to my leg and a mind that had gone from f@&ck the consequences to can I really afford to keep a roof over the family with my next accident ,didn’t want to go somewhere local , wanted something that would either make want more or say it’s not for me hence posting up to see what was out there , yep it was being idle too by not planning my own route and after the climbing accident I was just getting over maybe somewhere deep down I felt I needed a little safety net in case I had another accident (which if you met me that’s not how my brain works normally), the monthly trips down to Scott’s was as much about seeing a mate as it was sleeping out , plus it gave me the motivation that each trip would get longer mileage in it

[fatbikephil]

Is the problem down to the big marketing push on bikepacking leading quite a few people to buy the kit and give it a go, only for them to have a bad trip (rain, bog, tussocks, slugs) which is somewhat at odds with the marketing hype (sunsets, camp fires, good looking young people sharing life affirming tales); therefore they don't do it again.

I'm also thinking of a mates go at offering guided bikepacking trips which got a very small (near zero) take up. Their target audience was trail centre warriors with the bike, skills and fitness; but no nous. In truth these people would rather spend money on a trip to the alps where they can ride lift served trails and spend the evening in a nice hotel drinking and telling each other lies.

I don't think its ever going to be as big a thing as in the states simply down to the weather we get here and the trail facilities they have over there. Whilst our made trails are all based around small centres I get the impression in the states they form much bigger networks so its easy to follow a waymarked route, bivvy, complete route, go home. Waymarking in this country will only ever be basic ROW or path directions and the odd long distance path. The success of trail centres here was down to them providing easy riding without any recourse to map reading or route finding. I wonder how many budding bike packers have ridden to the top of the Glentress black route (say) bivvied and then done the rest of the route the next morning.....

[Bearbonesnorm]

s the problem down to the big marketing push on bikepacking leading quite a few people to buy the kit and give it a go, only for them to have a bad trip (rain, bog, tussocks, slugs) which is somewhat at odds with the marketing hype (sunsets, camp fires, good looking young people sharing life affirming tales); therefore they don't do it again.

Like this Phil?
https://bearbonesbikepacking.blogspot.c ... hered.html

[RIP]

Yes a superb article that was Stu!

[Alh14]

I still haven’t been, what many on here would class as ‘proper’ bikepacking, yes I’ve done a B&B assisted trans Cambrian, which was great but unfortunately my riding chum has done his back in and there is no sign of it getting fixed

Not having riding buddies is what is stopping me doing a proper trip more often (and always working when the wrt is on), so am definitely in the all the gear no idea camp

[jameso]

Groups A/B/C etc - good thinking Reg. Recently I had an email to-fro with someone who mentioned a way I could handle TNR entries using a simple algorithm idea, similar sort of mental model skills. An interesting way to solve problems that doesn't necessarily come naturally to creatives.

[fatbikephil]

s the problem down to the big marketing push on bikepacking leading quite a few people to buy the kit and give it a go, only for them to have a bad trip (rain, bog, tussocks, slugs) which is somewhat at odds with the marketing hype (sunsets, camp fires, good looking young people sharing life affirming tales); therefore they don't do it again.

Like this Phil?
https://bearbonesbikepacking.blogspot.c ... hered.html

Actually why don't more people get into Bikepacking??

[Scattamah]

Not having riding buddies is what is stopping me doing a proper trip more often...

Nahhh...that's not it ; ) Get out solo...even if overnight. You're missing a trick here. Solo = go at your own pace...so when you get to the top of that climb for a killer view...or you find that sweet bivvy spot, you can take all the time you want...or none at all.

I've had equally memorable trips both solo and with hedge-dossing folk from here and elsewhere. Sometimes you start out on your own and you end up riding with folks...and vice versa. All part of the adventure.

Greetz

S.

[RIP]

Not having riding buddies is what is stopping me doing a proper trip more often...

Nahhh...that's not it ; )

All your points are true in context Scott certainly, but let us ask Al what it is about not having riding buddies that's stopping him - how would they "improve bikepacking" for him - desire for help in adversity, mutual encouragement, shared experience, compare notes as go along, kit sharing etc.

Having said that, there's 1991 potential riding buddies on Here, Al. Just shout away . In fact this forum is part of the industry whether it likes it or not, and you're sort of a "B2" asking for a "course" albeit an informal one perhaps.

[Charliecres]

A few people on this thread have tried to pinpoint ‘the problem’. Thing is, I don’t think there is one. If someone* is really keen to get into bikepacking (whatever that means to them) then it’s possible. In fact it’s easier than it’s ever been.

If people aren’t *that* keen, they’ll lose interest before managing it. On balance, I think that may be a good thing.

I’m much more concerned about the real (but different) problem of idiots managing to get out into the countryside and sodding it up for everyone else.

* Of course, some people face way bigger hurdles than others.

[Scattamah]

Fair cop Reg. I just remember when I started sleeping in hedgerows...I didn't know BBB existed, but it was good to get out and gain the confidence. It was a couple of years before I started visiting mid Wales and meeting other like-minded folks.

Greetz

S.

[Bearbonesnorm]

A few people on this thread have tried to pinpoint ‘the problem’. Thing is, I don’t think there is one. If someone* is really keen to get into bikepacking (whatever that means to them) then it’s possible. In fact it’s easier than it’s ever been.

I've got to agree in that I'm really not sure there is a problem. This isn't meant to sound flippant so apologies if it does but there is absolutely nothing to prevent anyone from going bikepacking. The crux is - if they want to enough.

Sky diving isn't for everybody and neither is cycling. Touring between B&B has limited appeal, carrying your own kit even less. Cycling, carrying your own kit, navigating and feeding yourself, topped off with sleeping on some random hillside or forest perhaps isn't the big crowd puller some imagine?

[RIP]

Nah Scott, that was me too so I'm right on your side of course . Haven't quite thought through how solo/group fits into my A/B/C/Z classification malarkey

But v interested in Al's thinkings behind wish to be non-solo for the moment (and what the "industry" can do to "help", blah).

[RIP]

isn't the big crowd puller some imagine

Oh no. Uh-oh. That means we are weird after all! Well this changes everything.