UK right to roam campaign

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Cheeky Monkey
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Re: UK right to roam campaign

Post by Cheeky Monkey »

At the risk of digressing wildly. If cycling is to become one of this country's sustainable transport and people-movement solutions then RoW things are going to have to change because "bike paths" are going to have to be taking better lines (that don't correspond to the edge of roads). Current RoW legislation and provision is not fit for this purpose. Maybe it's not even the tool for the job and it might become something dealt with by Highways.

Another flip-side is that I anticipate a whole bunch of favorite "MTB trails" will become "bike paths" - leveled and surfaced like so much of the stuff in Holland. I suspect this will not go down well in the MTB world but maybe the bigger picture needs to be considered.

All IMO. Sorry for going even further OT :cool:
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Re: UK right to roam campaign

Post by jameso »

^ good points. I agree about the wider picture thing too. In principle that is - some of the trail repairs (natural rocky track becomes out-of-context gravel path) I've seen are another thing. MTBs will always find trails to ride though, wider access and transport options are far more important.
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Re: UK right to roam campaign

Post by jameso »

I thought some capital letters would be the least I could expect in a long-form email... especially now I find out the writer is a published author!
- have you ever seen the state of the average long-served bike mechanic's bike? :grin:
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Re: UK right to roam campaign

Post by Cheeky Monkey »

jameso wrote: Wed Aug 19, 2020 3:26 pm ... some of the trail repairs (natural rocky track becomes out-of-context gravel path) I've seen are another thing ...
Agreed. That's why I was clumsily trying to differentiate between "trails" and "bike paths". Basically I expect some of the former that physically align with good *commuter routes" will end up becoming like Sustrans multi-user routes. I suspect there will also be some "horse trading" where new bike paths go through similar corridors as existing trails then the latter may be extinguished.

Unnecessary trail-sanitation is crap though and should be avoided wherever possible. I helped design and build some of the hardest trails (at the time) in the UK at Stainburn. I feel a bit of a traitor talking like this :lol: :lol:
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RIP
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Re: UK right to roam campaign

Post by RIP »

Well it says 'ere they're going to invite me to a "trespass picnic", so that's nice! I wonder if I should take my bike?

CM wrote: "bike paths" are going to have to be taking better lines
We're really cranking ourselves up in our town to apply pressure for our share of "Gear Change" dosh. As previously discussed the challenge is where to put "dedicated" bike lanes. Boris has said "road space must be given up to provide the room" so we're going all in to test that :grin: . Big gang of us crashing the Town Council Zoom/Teams meeting next week :smile: .
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Re: UK right to roam campaign

Post by Mariner »

In an amazing occurrence of synchronicity a new book.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... campaigner

I never new that trespass was only applicable to damage not just being there.
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Re: UK right to roam campaign

Post by Lazarus »

I anticipate a whole bunch of favorite "MTB trails" will become "bike paths"
TBH Even if you tarmacced the ones local to me they dont really go anywhere and the road does not go to the top of the hill and is easier and quicker- even then its going to take more than govt initative to persuade someone to climb 250 m - ebikes?
I dont think they will sanatise proper MTB trails - they are FP anyway :wink:
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Re: UK right to roam campaign

Post by RIP »

Mariner wrote: Wed Aug 19, 2020 9:12 pm In an amazing occurrence of synchronicity a new book.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... campaigner

I never new that trespass was only applicable to damage not just being there.
The one I've been on and on about earlier :wink:

The trespass is the being there but it's never worth the owner pursuing the matter. And it's only a civil issue. However it certainly is worth them pursuing any damage involved. Hence the trespass is their 'route in' to get you done for the, criminal, damage.
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Re: UK right to roam campaign

Post by RIP »

And if you want to get really riled/worried/amused, 'aggravated trespass' is a criminal offence. You must be trespassing but also doing something causing obstruction or 'intimidation' to the land "owner". In theory you could be banged up for 3 months for taking photographs (not criminal)whilst on private land (ie. ALL land...) (not criminal). The two rights in this case making a wrong :wink: .
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Re: UK right to roam campaign

Post by In Reverse »

RIP wrote: Wed Aug 19, 2020 3:58 pm We're really cranking ourselves up in our town to apply pressure for our share of "Gear Change" dosh. As previously discussed the challenge is where to put "dedicated" bike lanes. Boris has said "road space must be given up to provide the room" so we're going all in to test that :grin: . Big gang of us crashing the Town Council Zoom/Teams meeting next week :smile: .
I'm doing a lot of work on this in Manchester at the moment Reg. (this is one of mine). Local authorities up here are still pushing projects through and, for the moment at least, central govt is still funnelling cash into it.

Maybe we can catch up for another "brief" pub chat on the WRT to discuss the issues :grin:
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Re: UK right to roam campaign

Post by RIP »

In Reverse wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 9:19 am
Manchester (this is one of mine).
That's an impressive and bold bit of road engineering Andy, compliments to you! A very interesting project to work on one imagines.
Maybe we can catch up for another "brief" pub chat on the WRT to discuss the issues :grin:
:smile: Will be on a Hafren - Ponterwyd - Borth - Mach - Commins - Stu sort of circuit I think: only a limited number of boozers so bound to bump into you :-bd
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Re: UK right to roam campaign

Post by Ray Young »

If it were me I'd be pushing for access to footpaths for cyclists and horse riders and the right to roam for walkers plus legal wild camping for all. Might make it a bit more palatable for land owners.
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Re: UK right to roam campaign

Post by thenorthwind »

Ray Young wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 10:58 am If it were me I'd be pushing for access to footpaths for cyclists and horse riders and the right to roam for walkers plus legal wild camping for all. Might make it a bit more palatable for land owners.
That's my thinking too. Leave the full "right to roam" campaign to the walkers (and kayakers, etc.), which I'd of course support, and campaign for riding on footpaths are per the Welsh proposals. As I said, full right to roam doesn't even give much advantage for those of us that favour some kind of path... and it'd only encourage Stu in his route plotting :wink:
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Re: UK right to roam campaign

Post by sean_iow »

Ray Young wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 10:58 am If it were me I'd be pushing for access to footpaths for cyclists and horse riders and the right to roam for walkers plus legal wild camping for all. Might make it a bit more palatable for land owners.
I can see that including the horse riders could be a stumbling block with land owners* and the ramblers, especially down south. They already destroy the bridleways** The footpaths wouldn't stand much chance under their use. They don't venture far from their paddocks/stables as they don't like to ride on the road. Most seem to do the same loops of I'd guess 6 to 10 miles length, so the bridleways within 3 miles of the paddocks are impassable in the winter unless on a horse. The same would happen to the footpaths.

* The National Trust on the Island were going to make a section footpath across the downs a permissive cycle-way. The horse riders campaigned for their inclusion so the idea was abandoned. The thin topsoil on the chalk downs is easily damaged by horses at speed and doesn't recover, the few MTB's that would use it wouldn't do the same.
** Not (just) my bias, but the science was explained to me by an environmental scientist once.
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Re: UK right to roam campaign

Post by RIP »

Ray Young wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 10:58 am If it were me I'd be pushing for access to footpaths for cyclists and the right to roam for walkers plus legal wild camping for all. Might make it a bit more palatable for land owners.
Just clarifying this is my position too, I wasn't really pushing for bike RTR..
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Re: UK right to roam campaign

Post by ScotRoutes »

If only there was somewhere close by that could serve as an example of how these hypothetical issues simply don't materialise.

For example, while cyclists in Scotland have the right to cross all land, how many actually wander off the paths and tracks? Very few.

Horses? Yeah, we have those too. Other than two small sections of path in the Pentlands I've never had an issue with hoof print damage. And of course with no restrictions on access, there's less need to share the damaged bits.

And before we go any further, I'll just mention that the same access rights apply round our largest cities as do in the remote Highlands, so it's not about pressure of numbers either.


Still, this might not be the best time to be agitating for enhanced public access given some of the sights I've seen and reports I've read of irresponsible behaviour.
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Re: UK right to roam campaign

Post by thenorthwind »

I agree Colin.
ScotRoutes wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 1:10 pm For example, while cyclists in Scotland have the right to cross all land, how many actually wander off the paths and tracks? Very few.
This is exactly the point I was trying to make. But it's about reality vs. perception. There's plenty of evidence for this and bikes causing minimal erosion, etc., but none of it's going to sway the minds of landowners/entrenched anti-cyclists.

While I'm all for taking a principled stand, why argue for a right you're not going to use (RTR by bike) if it damages the chances of gaining a right you might use, and others certainly will (RTR on foot)?
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Re: UK right to roam campaign

Post by thenorthwind »

Short video of Nick Hayes talking about the background to this here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsmOaZmyqiQ
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Re: UK right to roam campaign

Post by psling »

thenorthwind wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 2:59 pm But it's about reality vs. perception.
Slightly off topic but we had a situation local to me a few years back. There was a proposal to put in a shared-use path using old railway lines from Chepstow through the Lower Wye Valley to Monmouth via Tintern and the village of Brockweir. Grants were available and funding in place; to gain funding statistics had to be provided of predicted usage and that the path would be sustainable. These self same statistics were used by the residents of Brockweir to object to the path claiming the village and surrounding lanes would be clogged by cars belonging to people coming to ride along the cycle path! The point that the path would enable people to ride in and through the village without needing to use a vehicle was completely dismissed by the villagers and unfortunately the Local Planning Authority agreed with them so no path :sad:

A classic example of NIMBYs effectively blocking sustainable travel and why it is such a battle to achieve greater access in rural areas.
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Re: UK right to roam campaign

Post by Cheeky Monkey »

Similar happened up here years ago re: a proposed scheme to upgrade a section of old railway line around Addingham. It's hard to know the best solution but at times I do wish local authority officers or planners would drive this stuff a bit more as they are, in theory, the specialists in the position to take an overview and recommend the best solution. Still, once it gets to a planning committee (elected amateurs rather than paid professionals) anything could happen :roll:
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Re: UK right to roam campaign

Post by RIP »

thenorthwind wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 11:36 am Short video of Nick Hayes talking about the background to this here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsmOaZmyqiQ
Good spot there 'Wind. He nicely summarises the situation. Should be thrust under the nose of Priti "Useless" Patel.

In fact, I've just written to my MP to urge them not to support the proposed change in the law. If all 1,974 of us did the same, that might cause some ruffled feathers and, who knows, may even help a little.
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Re: UK right to roam campaign

Post by RIP »

Cheeky Monkey wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 1:33 pm Similar happened up here years ago re: a proposed scheme to upgrade a section of old railway line around Addingham. It's hard to know the best solution but at times I do wish local authority officers or planners would drive this stuff a bit more as they are, in theory, the specialists in the position to take an overview and recommend the best solution. Still, once it gets to a planning committee (elected amateurs rather than paid professionals) anything could happen :roll:

Hopefully in future we "just" have to wave LTN1/20 and the "Gear Change" government policies at them and they'll have no choice. Klaxon sounds: >naivety alert<.
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Re: UK right to roam campaign

Post by The Cumbrian »

RIP wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 1:40 pm [

In fact, I've just written to my MP to urge them not to support the proposed change in the law. If all 1,974 of us did the same, that might cause some ruffled feathers and, who knows, may even help a little.
Could you share a copy of your letter so that those of us who are too idle to string a few words together can use it as a pro forma?
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Re: UK right to roam campaign

Post by RIP »

Go on then, I did it quite quickly so it could probably be rather more eloquent....

"Dear Reg's MP,

I hope the recent C19 problems have not treated you too badly.

This is just a quick email to register my extreme disquiet about the proposed Autumn change in the law to criminalise trespass. At the moment it is purely a civil offence, unless damage or intimidation are also involved.

I understand that the proposal may well be aimed at "inconsiderate travellers” but the effect would be far-reaching and indiscriminate. I know that homeless people for example are a subject close to your heart, for which I compliment you. However this change in the law would immediately result in potential criminal records for ALL rough sleepers, no matter how benign or indeed desperate they might be. It is also a huge restriction on normal people’s freedoms – freedoms we have had since the Magna Carta. We are currently able to roam, and indeed rest and sleep, on private land with the owner’s approval; and we also have “assumed” rights to rest and sleep on certain areas of land when causing no problems – such as above 1500’ on mountains.

There already plenty of laws to deal with "inconsiderate travellers" – for example littering is already a criminal offence. Obviously there have been recent issues with “fly camping” in beauty spots (mainly it seems people who have not been able to go abroad and cause trouble!), but they are also easily punished under existing laws.

I urge you, please, to support a more nuanced change in the law, which would not remove ancient freedoms (“the land of the free” indeed….) from the whole population.

Thank you, kind regards,
Reg"
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Re: UK right to roam campaign

Post by thenorthwind »

RIP wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 1:40 pm Good spot there 'Wind. He nicely summarises the situation. Should be thrust under the nose of Priti "Useless" Patel.

In fact, I've just written to my MP to urge them not to support the proposed change in the law. If all 1,974 of us did the same, that might cause some ruffled feathers and, who knows, may even help a little.
I prefer "Vacant" :wink:

Good idea. I imagine there are many MPs not even aware of this since it may way down the list of concerns in their constituency, but affects all of us. Will make an effort to contact mine.
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