who rides Ti ?

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Dave Barter
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Re: who rides Ti ?

Post by Dave Barter »

ScotRoutes wrote: Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:57 pm
Moff wrote: Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:36 pm
Despite the ‘risks’ I’m considering a Walty to replace the El Mariachi (think I need a bit more top tube length) - need to find a new job first, then I can ‘reward’ myself!
I ordered my Burls after having a steel El Mariachi and then blanching at the cost of a Ti one. It was very heavily based on the El Mar geometry, with just a few tweaks. I subsequently sold it to Dave Barter when I wanted to go B+ and the Burls wouldn't handle the tyre width.
Sadly it will be up for sale soon
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Alpinum
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Re: who rides Ti ?

Post by Alpinum »

Gosh... I'd really love to go into a few details regarding the mechanics of different types of titanium and stainless steel as in why UTS is about as useful as buying a camera for good photos (shapr, high dynamic range what not) solely for its pixel count.

Then FEM. We use it at work, though for other applications than bicycle frames.
A problem I see with it's application is the lack of precision done by mitering and welding by even the most gifted frame builders. Add such factors in and the data goes berserk (scientific nomenclature).

But nobody stops us from asking for in process photos from these steps when we get a custom frame.

Having ordered a custom frame at Waltly and since helped 3 others getting theirs, I can say from them, that tapered tubes are definately the option Waltly has so far always recommended (all main tubes except seat tube) and since quite a few seemingly western made ti frames come from Waltly, I can imagine they just use what they have, which is a load of tapered tubes. See Muru Cycles.

Then the different ti and steel alloys. Annealed or not alpha, beta phases, normalised etc. Gosh I could go on for hours.

But since the light is quite special outside and the risk of boring the sh*t out of most of you, I shall not bother but instead go for a little ride (writing from the train on the way home). Also, it was a long day at work... enough of numbers. Time for chlorophyll, H2O and some electromagnetism.
Moff
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Re: who rides Ti ?

Post by Moff »

Dave Barter wrote: Thu Aug 13, 2020 6:03 pm
ScotRoutes wrote: Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:57 pm
Moff wrote: Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:36 pm
Despite the ‘risks’ I’m considering a Walty to replace the El Mariachi (think I need a bit more top tube length) - need to find a new job first, then I can ‘reward’ myself!
I ordered my Burls after having a steel El Mariachi and then blanching at the cost of a Ti one. It was very heavily based on the El Mar geometry, with just a few tweaks. I subsequently sold it to Dave Barter when I wanted to go B+ and the Burls wouldn't handle the tyre width.
Sadly it will be up for sale soon
What size was it based on........?
jameso
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Re: who rides Ti ?

Post by jameso »

why UTS is about as useful as buying a camera for good photos (shapr, high dynamic range what not) solely for its pixel count.
On it's own it's not much use, no. Agreed.
ScotRoutes
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Re: who rides Ti ?

Post by ScotRoutes »

Moff wrote: Thu Aug 13, 2020 6:40 pm
Dave Barter wrote: Thu Aug 13, 2020 6:03 pm
ScotRoutes wrote: Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:57 pm
Moff wrote: Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:36 pm
Despite the ‘risks’ I’m considering a Walty to replace the El Mariachi (think I need a bit more top tube length) - need to find a new job first, then I can ‘reward’ myself!
I ordered my Burls after having a steel El Mariachi and then blanching at the cost of a Ti one. It was very heavily based on the El Mar geometry, with just a few tweaks. I subsequently sold it to Dave Barter when I wanted to go B+ and the Burls wouldn't handle the tyre width.
Sadly it will be up for sale soon
What size was it based on........?
This might help

ImageBurls by Colin Cadden, on Flickr
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Cheeky Monkey
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Re: who rides Ti ?

Post by Cheeky Monkey »

In Reverse wrote: Thu Aug 13, 2020 5:05 pm Just getting to 11,000km on a Titus Fireline frame and still going great. It's lovely to ride and has taken an absolute pounding from an unsubtle 15 stone rider.
Fireline rider too - very nice bike :-bd
Cyclepeasant
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Re: who rides Ti ?

Post by Cyclepeasant »

Must join this ti party!
I have never had any issues with a ti frame .
1/ A litespeed ghisallo 2002.
Classic round tubed version.
Other than wear and tear items,it performs like new.
Has currently a sram force groupset, campagnolo record or super record mechanical upgrade is due... finally! Probably covered 60k+ miles.
I change the colour of the tyres,bar tape and saddle to match every few years to refresh it's appearence.

2/ Enigma ego MTB 2004. Running rohloff with tensioner. Again many events, 24,12,8 &6hr enduros, loads of rides,still regularly used, can't fault the frame.
Other than replacement consumables,Still looks new.

My painted frames all look used after a few years even though I try quite hard to preserve the finish

And there you have the simple answer...they last with minimal attention. Ti always looks new.

(And who doesn't like minimal maintenance?)

:grin:
Insanity over vanity
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Kumquat
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Re: who rides Ti ?

Post by Kumquat »

I've had 3
Two were stolen
I cracked the third.
It's rides nicely doesn't weigh a lot.
Looks moody when shot blasted. No paint to scratch.
Ride 853 now. Mmm
Ti seatpost on my cromo bike packing bike if that counts?
Grubby little urchin.
ScotRoutes
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Re: who rides Ti ?

Post by ScotRoutes »

Piemonster and I were discussing this thread today while we were strapping frames onto packrafts and wheels on top of those frames...
ton
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Re: who rides Ti ?

Post by ton »

going for a test ride on a Spa cycles elan. set up in gravel mode. not the bike i want but it will give me a idea kinda.
the chance of getting a rest ride on a Ti salsa fargo in XL is pretty rare i reckon.

unless anyone on here has a Ti fargo in xl ??
Fat tyre kicker
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Re: who rides Ti ?

Post by Fat tyre kicker »

There's a 19" Ti Mukluk for sale on eBay in Croatia at a good price,
It's got a decent hubset on it too, could be turned into a super Fargo Ti
With a new wheelset ?
ton
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Re: who rides Ti ?

Post by ton »

19 is a bit too small. i need 21 or 23.
AlasdairMc
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Re: who rides Ti ?

Post by AlasdairMc »

JohnClimber wrote: Wed Aug 12, 2020 6:45 pm
ScotRoutes wrote: Wed Aug 12, 2020 1:16 pm Three.

And I've sold two others.

I like the feel.
I like the weight.
I like the bare metal look.
I like the fact that I can mistreat the frame by strapping bags to it and it comes up like new.
I like the fact that I can buy custom Ti frames for much less than alloy and steel frames from some of the other brands.

I've never snapped or broken one.
The oldest is now 12/13 years old.

I've been pondering a Ti fatbike frame too, but my Cube Nutrail is fine (for the moment).
Seconded
Had 5
Sold 1 - which did crack but fixed @Alisdair
Got 4

Same reasons
Never snapped them myself
Oldest is still going around 12 years old,

Never worried about the rub marks from frame bags
I’ve had four, and have broken three of them.

My oldest (in terms of my ownership) is a Van Nicholas road bike from 2012 which is fine.

First Stooge I cracked a chainstay. This was a design flaw as the chainstay was pressed to form a seam. The plate stay is much better. That Stooge was auctioned off earlier this year, and during the sale (typical!!) I found a crack in an incomplete weld. A decent welder fixed that up for me by replacing the entire weld.

I’ve broken my Jones twice. First was the fork, and again my local friendly welder fixed that. The second time really wasn’t the frame’s fault, as my QR stripped when riding, which sent the axle forward and I put the weight of me plus bike through the chainstay. It dented then cracked. The crack was drilled then a plate welded over, and I completely trust it to ride again.

I love the feel of Ti. I ride Ti posts on all my bikes that will take them as I love the flex and comfort.
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psling
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Re: who rides Ti ?

Post by psling »

I am not an engineer and do not know the science but...

the only ti that I have had fail was a component. The frames I have (and have had) have never let me down or failed. A ti handlebar (flat MTB) did however fail - it cracked and sheared at the stem clamp, a potential weak spot between a rigid clamped point and flexing bar. It sheared in line with the end of the clamp. To be fair that was after about 7 or 8 years of use in the same clamp.
I mention this as a cautionary tale with regard to bars and seatposts where the 'comfort' (flex) of the ti is clamped rigidly. My bar sheared catastrophically but luckily I was riding at walking pace. I have always avoided ti seatposts as a result.
We go out into the hills to lose ourselves, not to get lost. You are only lost if you need to be somewhere else and if you really need to be somewhere else then you're probably in the wrong place to begin with.
jameso
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Re: who rides Ti ?

Post by jameso »

going for a test ride on a Spa cycles elan.
Would be interested to hear your impressions of it - it looks nice. I've spent a bit too much time buying parts on Spa's site in recent months and was also browsing the frames. They almost got my money for their Audax frameset.
Bedmaker
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Re: who rides Ti ?

Post by Bedmaker »

I have three Ti frames, all custom built dealing direct with Waltly.

The main reason each time was that there was nothing on the market which ticked all the boxes I was after. All the reasons detailed above, durability, looks, comfort, weight etc are all valid too.

My first one was a slack hardcore hardtail, three years ago. IT was seen as quite extreme at the time, but now there are several off the shelf options available with almost the same geo.

Second was a fatbike, with decent geometry. Now two years old, I love this bike and it gets plenty use. It's just a joy for out there bikepacking.

Third was earlier this year, a gravel/ rigid/ adventure bike.

Only Ti I have cracked was a Lynskey build On one Ti 29er. The tubes were tiny spindly things compared to the Ti bikes I now have.
The last two I had built have a 50mm DT welded to a 56/44 tapered head tube. Massively strong.
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Mart
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Re: who rides Ti ?

Post by Mart »

Yes - I’ve got a Singular Pegasus MK2
Love the ride and the weight.

The Mk1’s were prone to cracking
Spoke to Sam about this and he said they had too thin a tube. These were made by Nevi

Not sure where the Mk2 frames are made but i like it a lot. :-bd
2924 miles per Gallon
ton
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Re: who rides Ti ?

Post by ton »

this caught my eye earlier today. has anyone any info or anything on these?

looks very nice.

https://store.pedalrevolution.co.uk/177 ... -bike.aspx
Fat tyre kicker
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Re: who rides Ti ?

Post by Fat tyre kicker »

That does look nice :-bd
pistonbroke
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Re: who rides Ti ?

Post by pistonbroke »

Jan Willem (J Guillem)Sintnicholas was the designer/boss at Van Nicholas for several years until Accell bought them and he moved to Majorca, hence the more than a passing resemblance of this model to the VN Zion. I suspect, similar to VN, that he employs Waltly to weld his frames together in Taiwan, don't know where they're assembled. I now own a Zion (Rohloff)after 2 Redwoods failed with cracks. So far so good but it's only 8 months old, both the others failed after 2 years. His marketing blurb talks about a 100 year warranty on the frame, I'd be reading the fine print of that before committing 4 grand. I'm guessing it's not transferrable but then you tend to keep bikes a long time, Oh wait! :grin:
holdsteady
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Re: who rides Ti ?

Post by holdsteady »

struggling to understand why there is such a huge difference between the price of a Sonder Camino Ti with GRX spec for £2150 and Planet X Tempest Ti SRAM Force 1 for £1,999 compared to a Genesis Croix De Fer Ti GRX at £4,399.99, Product blurbs say Tempest is " triple butted 3AL/2.5V frameset" and Croix De Fer "3AL-2.5v double-butted ". Would have thought Genesis would have been able to be a lot more competitive on price
jameso
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Re: who rides Ti ?

Post by jameso »

holdsteady wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:20 pm struggling to understand why there is such a huge difference between the price of a Sonder Camino Ti with GRX spec for £2150 and Planet X Tempest Ti SRAM Force 1 for £1,999 compared to a Genesis Croix De Fer Ti GRX at £4,399.99, Product blurbs say Tempest is " triple butted 3AL/2.5V frameset" and Croix De Fer "3AL-2.5v double-butted ". Would have thought Genesis would have been able to be a lot more competitive on price
Route to market, mostly. Genesis has to make money for the brand and the retailer. The other 2 sell direct, brand and retailer the same thing.
I think the Genesis bikes still come from the same place in Taiwan and it's a more expensive place to get Ti frames from. They make some of the most highly-regarded Ti frames out there but that's not saying they're inherently better than a Chinese Ti factory - brand and rep aren't things you feel as ride quality and Ti is Ti in that respect, it's just a case of tube dimension and design.
pistonbroke
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Re: who rides Ti ?

Post by pistonbroke »

I imagine that they wouldn't sell many steel Croix de Fers at c: £2,000 if the Ti was half the price.
My theory fwiw is that the pricing of Ti bikes and frames is more a "finger in the wind" exercise more based on perceived quality than actual bulk manufacturing cost. There's also the whole life cost of bike to be considered i.e the cost of covering warranty claims for welding failure. It's a bit of a self fullfilling prophecy, someone who pays north of £2k for a frame or £4k for a bike is likely to be an enthusiast and thus put considerably more mileage and strain on the bike than someone who buys a carbon or alu bike on impulse which sits languishing in the garage 6 months later. A lot of manufacturers are still trading on "Ti is a bike for life" marketing and offering long warranties on that basis. Saying that, I am a big fan of Ti, my best road bike is a Litespeed Tuscany which is 13 years old and is a bit of a Triggers broom, now sporting 11 speed Ultegra, Dura Ace C24 wheels and 3ttt carbon bar-stem, it still makes me smile the 4-5 times a year that I ride it. My current fave off road is a Van Nicholas Zion Rohloff which is really growing on me since getting it as a replacement for 2 Redwood frames that failed with cracked welds. I ride it almost daily on the miles of gravel trails that surround where I live, the lifetime frame warranty is definitely working for me!
Last edited by pistonbroke on Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
holdsteady
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Re: who rides Ti ?

Post by holdsteady »

jameso wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:58 pm
holdsteady wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:20 pm struggling to understand why there is such a huge difference between the price of a Sonder Camino Ti with GRX spec for £2150 and Planet X Tempest Ti SRAM Force 1 for £1,999 compared to a Genesis Croix De Fer Ti GRX at £4,399.99, Product blurbs say Tempest is " triple butted 3AL/2.5V frameset" and Croix De Fer "3AL-2.5v double-butted ". Would have thought Genesis would have been able to be a lot more competitive on price
Route to market, mostly. Genesis has to make money for the brand and the retailer. The other 2 sell direct, brand and retailer the same thing.
I think the Genesis bikes still come from the same place in Taiwan and it's a more expensive place to get Ti frames from. They make some of the most highly-regarded Ti frames out there but that's not saying they're inherently better than a Chinese Ti factory - brand and rep aren't things you feel as ride quality and Ti is Ti in that respect, it's just a case of tube dimension and design.
cheers James - but over £2k mark up is astonishing to me
jameso
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Re: who rides Ti ?

Post by jameso »

holdsteady wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:49 pm cheers James - but over £2k mark up is astonishing to me
A £2000 bike that makes a modest / not that high margin for a direct-to-customer brand has to retail at about £3500 to give a dealer a workable margin too. So Genesis and/or the dealers are making a bit more than a brand who're focussed on price and selling online mainly, that's what I'd expect. It's also not the case that Genesis get Shimano cheaper due to links with Madison, it's all bought at OE rates in Asia where Genesis, PX or Sonder are reliant on the factory-agent prices rather than Shimano direct. It's why B2C is so hard for a retailer to compete with yet bikes are one thing that many people (and brands really) do need a retailer to help support.
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