An observation.

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Bearbonesnorm
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Re: An observation.

Post by Bearbonesnorm »

This observation :wink: always interests me. From the industry side I'd say there is little power to steer or control. More that they just react to try to build. Specialized, prob the biggest bike co with the biggest budgets, have never really started any trends. They've just been very good at taking ideas from the grass roots and running with them. 'The Industry' ie as a whole jumps on trends once they get scale.
Case in point - Shimano Japan guys at the Madison show 2010, scratching heads and talking among themselves around the Croix de Fer on display. Now Shimano Gravel is a thing and they're championing this new way of riding with groupsets along the lines of what a number of product managers have been asking for for many years. It's the same in music and anything creative isn't it. The direction comes from the underground or those who are directly involved and experimenting (who in turn all have their influences), only in hindsight when something becomes popular can you trace it back to a number of start points and see that the marketeers only reflect what riders are demanding. At that point the marketeers are influential but they're only building on something already in motion.
There's certainly cases when marketeers have been very influential but I'm struggling to think of many examples in the bike industry, compared to eg 50s car advertising or Coca-Cola and Marlboro. I'm sure there are some, just none coming to mind at the moment. I guess the reason is that genuinely influential marketing is really expensive and the bike industry has far more modest budgets and few great marketeers.
Bloody hell that's a long quote :wink: That's all very true James but there always appears to be a tipping point - as you say, once the industry see some potential within a market. It's what comes after that interests me. Obviously, the industry had little interest in bikepacking for some time but since they have, the trend appears to be shifting from mountainbike to gravel. Perhaps that was simply a natural shift or as someone said earlier, maybe it's just easier to market?
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Scud
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Re: An observation.

Post by Scud »

The comment really sorry was that to the marketeers that was were most mountain biking takes place at trail centres, they're marketing is to the disposable income, van driving, man mostly. We all know that it is the 20 year old on the Carrera that probably has the most talent and skill, but it is the 40 year old man (myself included in this) that spends the money to them. Look at what percentage of gravel bikes come with 3 bottle mounts and mounts on forks, compared to mountain bikes..

So marketing at the moment in that sector is aimed at getting them on e-bikes, whilst they watch GCN videos.

You have to remember that people on here probably are not where marketing is aimed, people that often make parts last, make their own kit and happy to ride a decent distance from home.

Roadies are getting gravel bikes aimed at them with the pitch that UK roads are terrible both in traffic and road surface, so here's the ideal bike for that...

Youngsters/ hipsters are getting the gravel/ adventure/ dangle-mug/ basket and rack, instagram version etc..
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Re: An observation.

Post by jameso »

maybe it's just easier to market?
I think that's it. 'ROI' etc. Give something a push along rather than push water uphill. May as well since the margins on MTBs, road, gravel etc are all about the same.
You have to remember that people on here probably are not where marketing is aimed, people that often make parts last, make their own kit and happy to ride a decent distance from home.
So true. While I might have some experience in all this, at work I'm also seen as someone who 'doesn't actually do anything that cyclists all do' / 'you don't buy anything we sell anyway..' :grin: consumables aside - the bikepacking / Arkose adventure stuff being about the exception and in reality that's still a small part of what we sell. The vast majority of Arkoses are ridden as commuter / day-ride bikes (the retailer skews the mix though, Keep Pedalling or Wheelbase will see a different side of it).
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Re: An observation.

Post by whitestone »

Lazarus wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 10:37 am
90% of "mountain biking" is actually done in trail centres,
Is it ?
Have you a source or some evidence to support this ?
93.5% of statistics are made up - Vic Reeves.

Go through, if you can be bothered, the stats on Strava for trail centre and non-trail centre segments. It's really quite revealing, a segment somewhere like Gisburn will have several tens of thousands of logged attempts whereas a segment just a few miles away in the Dales will have less than 1000, often much less. Not everyone is on Strava but the numbers are big enough that it's a suitable proxy. Areas that have a high proportion of techy trails that get promoted sort of quazi-trail centres, Swaledale springs to mind, will see a couple of thousand attempts.

Some examples:

Hully Gully at Gisburn: 50,000
Stockdale Lane: 2500
Descent of Buckden Pike: 71

That latter is, I think, the biggest descent in the Dales, a whopping 450m, it's really varied as well.
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psling
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Re: An observation.

Post by psling »

jameso wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 12:08 pm
You have to remember that people on here probably are not where marketing is aimed...
So true.
I would probably disagree with that! Maybe not large scale, large corporation marketing directly but we are all targets. You only have to read posts on this forum over a period of months to see just how much we succumb to influences, either directly or indirectly.
A lot of people on here have gravel bikes but many will go to great lengths to explain how they came to have one in spite of rather than because of. And the amount of gear bought/sold/exchanged/discussed to achieve our ideal; somewhere along the line we are all influenced in our choices and purchases.
Probably, as mentioned previously, it is some of the people on this forum whose exploits and product choices are setting the trail before the bigger boys join in. But we all see the adverts, see the pictures, see the films, read the spiel, we all appreciate the lines, the beauty, the simplicity, the practicality of products we see. That's marketing that is whether we realise it or not. I guess the successful marketing campaign is the one that makes us buy stuff because we really need it and really want it but judging by the For Sale columns they got us again :wink:
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Lazarus
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Re: An observation.

Post by Lazarus »

Go through, if you can be bothered
What for I have you :wink: Actually I dont know how to :oops:
The countryside is a quite big so i think we would need to know how many rides there were in say Yorkshire V Gisburn to do a decent comparison - its also pretty much the only trail centre in Lancashire so has a large catchment area,


I am not suggesting they are not busier i am suggesting that the claim that they are 90% is not necessarily true and i dont buy it personally. Would be interetsing to know what say their daily activity is V every ride in Lancashire on that day for example, I will wager its not 90% of ALL activity that day.
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Jurassic
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Re: An observation.

Post by Jurassic »

psling wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 12:48 pm
jameso wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 12:08 pm
You have to remember that people on here probably are not where marketing is aimed...
So true.
I would probably disagree with that! Maybe not large scale, large corporation marketing directly but we are all targets. You only have to read posts on this forum over a period of months to see just how much we succumb to influences, either directly or indirectly.
A lot of people on here have gravel bikes but many will go to great lengths to explain how they came to have one in spite of rather than because of. And the amount of gear bought/sold/exchanged/discussed to achieve our ideal; somewhere along the line we are all influenced in our choices and purchases.
Probably, as mentioned previously, it is some of the people on this forum whose exploits and product choices are setting the trail before the bigger boys join in. But we all see the adverts, see the pictures, see the films, read the spiel, we all appreciate the lines, the beauty, the simplicity, the practicality of products we see. That's marketing that is whether we realise it or not. I guess the successful marketing campaign is the one that makes us buy stuff because we really need it and really want it but judging by the For Sale columns they got us again :wink:
Straying away from the OP a bit but sometimes marketing is actually correct. I reckon that quite a lot of casual roadies would be far better off on a gravel bike instead of their sharp handling, extreme riding position carbon road bikes (which they've also probably bought as a result of marketing pictures of Geraint Thomas, Chris Froome etc btw). Equally anyone who denies that a modern geometry mountain bike is no more capable than the steep angled 26er that we were all riding not many years ago has their head in the sand. Marketing people will try to sell whatever's available in their company's range and present it as the next big must have but evolution will dictate that the products to tend to improve over time. Sure there will be evolutionary dead ends that are marketed aggressively every now and again (fat bikes?) but overall the equipment that is available to us continues to improve and marketing takes advantage of that fact.
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Bearbonesnorm
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Re: An observation.

Post by Bearbonesnorm »

Absolutely Peter. Good marketing isn't about selling the product directly, it's about selling us the benefits of that product (perceived or actual) and making us believe that ownership will enhance our experience in any number of ways. It's all aspiration I suppose.

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Lazarus
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Re: An observation.

Post by Lazarus »

but overall the equipment that is available to us continues to improve and marketing takes advantage of that fact.
Some does and some does not. I have QR forks that are not obviously poorer in use than ten year newer 15mm forks nor are they more flexxy.
Not sure cranks are any better or that 1x is better or OS is better than standard for bars or that 35mm bars are even better

IMHO they made a decision to change standards constantly so you were forced to upgrade entire bikes rather than parts - I dont think any of them were actually game changers or even made much difference- and to persuade you the new change was better when in reality it was often just a change for the sake of change.
samewith stiffer cranks - have you seen how much your ack end and the tyre deflects when you crank hard - what on earth are you worrying about the crank you are using for as its just not the source of movement - its probably the strongest thing on the bike
Anyone really think a push fit bottom bracket was a game changer ? I wager the only ones who do had big problems with them !
Much of it makes next to no difference if any
Personally i always wanted to swap all 650 b wheels for 26 ers just to see how long it took folk to notice :wink:
jameso
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Re: An observation.

Post by jameso »

I would probably disagree with that! Maybe not large scale, large corporation marketing directly but we are all targets. You only have to read posts on this forum over a period of months to see just how much we succumb to influences, either directly or indirectly.
'Everything is political' and everything is marketing too. We do all succumb to it to some extent. I'd agree with you, my 'so true' was about the less consumerist, ride from home types part of Scud's post- (and then also thinking a bit more about the 'Postman's been' thread here I know we're probably wrong :grin:). We're all influenced by each other and ideas shared though, sure.

I think mainstream brands eg Evans or Wiggle's marketing tend to go for the largest groups and easy wins, the short-term boosts from things already in motion. The smaller or bigger-budget smart brands go for the smaller groups of opinion-formers, 'grammers, early-adopters etc and then build something from there often almost from scratch - that's where we may be a target. It's all quite blurred I think, ie I'm both not the target customer in many ways (outside of basic demographics) but could become part of that by being prominent and influential on social media.

making us believe that ownership will enhance our experience in any number of ways. It's all aspiration I suppose.
- which is exactly why I have a new road bike with a classic style despite having an old but perfectly functional bike for that same use already. The sense of the bike expressing something I value, something a good marketeer sums up in an image or tagline.
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Re: An observation.

Post by whitestone »

Lazarus wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 1:00 pm
Go through, if you can be bothered
What for I have you :wink: Actually I dont know how to :oops:
The countryside is a quite big so i think we would need to know how many rides there were in say Yorkshire V Gisburn to do a decent comparison - its also pretty much the only trail centre in Lancashire so has a large catchment area,


I am not suggesting they are not busier i am suggesting that the claim that they are 90% is not necessarily true and i dont buy it personally. Would be interetsing to know what say their daily activity is V every ride in Lancashire on that day for example, I will wager its not 90% of ALL activity that day.
Methinks you are taking the 90% a bit literally :wink:

Also do you compare activities or time spent riding or distance ridden? A quick blast round Gisburn is 90mins or so (actually I'm guessing at that as I've not been there for at least three years despite it being only 40mins away), that's only just a warm up for most of us on here. The times I ride past (on my road bike) the car park's packed.

For a substantial number, trail centres are mountain biking, in the same way that for many indoor climbing walls are climbing. Packaged, convenient, you know what you are getting.
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mattpage
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Re: An observation.

Post by mattpage »

I think the way MTBs are developing now, either they are XC race bike or longer travel "trail centre" bikes.
Gravel/adventure seems to be taking over more the XC/trail market and the types of routes/rides that drop-bar bikes are capable of going makes them pretty ideal for this. Plus you can do a few road miles and it doesn't feel too slow.

E-bikepacking is next I tell you... I can almost hear you groaning at the thought Stu 🤣
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Re: An observation.

Post by Bearbonesnorm »

E-bikepacking is next I tell you... I can almost hear you groaning at the thought Stu
No, I've absolutely nothing against E-bikes whatsover because I'm fully aware that my time will come :wink:
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Lazarus
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Re: An observation.

Post by Lazarus »

aye me and mate were out SS this weekend and disussing at what pathetic ratio we would admit defeat and get an E-bike - its a while of yet .
For a substantial number, trail centres are mountain biking
YES BUT IS IT 90 PERCENT OR NOT

JOKE I get the point you made. Would be interetsing to know how the numbers and divide stacks up though
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Jurassic
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Re: An observation.

Post by Jurassic »

Lazarus wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 1:41 pm
but overall the equipment that is available to us continues to improve and marketing takes advantage of that fact.
Some does and some does not. I have QR forks that are not obviously poorer in use than ten year newer 15mm forks nor are they more flexxy.
Not sure cranks are any better or that 1x is better or OS is better than standard for bars or that 35mm bars are even better

IMHO they made a decision to change standards constantly so you were forced to upgrade entire bikes rather than parts - I dont think any of them were actually game changers or even made much difference- and to persuade you the new change was better when in reality it was often just a change for the sake of change.
samewith stiffer cranks - have you seen how much your ack end and the tyre deflects when you crank hard - what on earth are you worrying about the crank you are using for as its just not the source of movement - its probably the strongest thing on the bike
Anyone really think a push fit bottom bracket was a game changer ? I wager the only ones who do had big problems with them !
Much of it makes next to no difference if any
Personally i always wanted to swap all 650 b wheels for 26 ers just to see how long it took folk to notice :wink:
I did say "overall" and make the point that there have been some blind alleys but honestly anyone who thinks that a modern bike isn't markedly more capable than something of a similar standard from 15 years ago is in denial imho. There will always be resistance to change though, I'm old enough to remember how we all cried out when Shimano went from thumbies to trigger shifters and yet most of us now routinely use trigger shifters on our mountain bikes (and yes, I know thumbies still have their fans).
Lazarus
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Re: An observation.

Post by Lazarus »

I dont deny that a 10 year old bike is worse than a new one I merley point out all the changes are not game changing and often dont really serve any purpose

IMHO geometry changes here matter more than what size your stem is or how your front wheel stays in the fork or how wide the hub is etc
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Jurassic
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Re: An observation.

Post by Jurassic »

Lazarus wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 3:17 pm IMHO geometry changes here matter more than what size your stem is or how your front wheel stays in the fork or how wide the hub is etc
I absolutely agree with this point. I tried to "modernize" my old Whyte 46 FS bike by putting wider bars etc on it but it was still held back by it's old fashioned geometry, the difference compared to any modern trail bike (FS, hardtail whatever) was staggering. Such a shame because it was a great bike in it's day.
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Re: An observation.

Post by Cheeky Monkey »

mattpage wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 2:16 pm I think the way MTBs are developing now, either they are XC race bike or longer travel "trail centre" bikes.
Gravel/adventure seems to be taking over more the XC/trail market and the types of routes/rides that drop-bar bikes are capable of going makes them pretty ideal for this. Plus you can do a few road miles and it doesn't feel too slow.

E-bikepacking is next I tell you... I can almost hear you groaning at the thought Stu 🤣
Halfway there ;-)

https://singletrackworld.com/charged/20 ... vel-bike/

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mattpage
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Re: An observation.

Post by mattpage »

Cheeky Monkey wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 5:03 pm
Halfway there ;-)

I think I am down to test one. I've not used the Bosche CX and it will be interesting to compare against the Fazua, which seems more like to go to for companies at the moment.
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Re: An observation.

Post by Tomwoodbury »

Such an interesting thread with some great insight. I’m prone to marketing and am always browsing / thinking about new bikes but to date I’ve always come to the conclusion the differences between a flashy new gravel bike and my lovely v1 tripster atr will be negligible at best.

This sounds very mercenary, but I’m looking forward to all the recent cycling purchases by people who’ve realised they don’t like it very much going on eBay. Should be saturated by Christmas with some great deals about.
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