GCN does bikepacking

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BigdummySteve
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Re: GCN does bikepacking

Post by BigdummySteve » Fri Jul 17, 2020 7:37 pm

I thought the video was poor by GCN standards and the presenter I’d not seen before, obviously couldn’t find his arse with both hands.
As for ethnic bias I feel it reflects reality, I’ve thought of bringing it up as a topic but anything to do with race/ religion etc quickly becomes fairly toxic.
But I’m feeling brave, having survived a potentially nasty wheel failure I’m ready for a beating.

Ok... I’ve noticed that although ethnic minorities make up a not insignificant proportion of our population it’s not reflected in cycling, in other sports it’s more representative, rugby for instance, look at the England team , that popular game with the round ball as well. Etc..
Just look at the start pictures from the WRT or many other events, it’s genuinely rare to see a black guy on a bike and I find it puzzling. Cycling is a very inclusive sport, while we all like nice bikes and bling stuff the rider is the most important element so money can’t be a reason,
14% of the UK population are non-white according to the last census, so it follows that 14% of cyclists should be non-white? In London commuting cycling it may be closer to parity but Bikepacking and sport cycling absolutely no chance, I’ve no idea of the reasons, cultural? A bicycle is often see as a poor mans transport, Americans are guilty of that often.
Whatever the reason GCN’s presenting team reflects reality, to get the job first you have to be a cyclist, as the video above demonstrates actual front of camera personality helps as well.

I might be simplistic but I do believe we are a vastly different county than America, the vast majority of us accept everyone as they are, adopting their problems is not helpful.
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Re: GCN does bikepacking

Post by frogatthefarriers » Fri Jul 17, 2020 8:14 pm

Lazarus wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 10:26 am
Is this a game of spot the white man ? are you saying the reason most top positions are held by white men at the same % ore for the same reason- white men just hapen to be disroportionately better than BAME and females - is this what you want to argue?
I used to ride at Llandegla a couple of times a week, for 3 or 4 years. In all that time I can only remember seeing BAME men on a couple of occasions, out of the thousands of riders. Now I don’t believe anyone had prevented BAME riders from riding there, or anywhere else for that matter. I can only conclude that they don’t want to be cycling. So if there are less BAME people in the sport, there is a smaller pool to select from, so it’s no great surprise fewer get to the top.
Konia kują, żaba noge podstawia...

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Alpinum
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Re: GCN does bikepacking

Post by Alpinum » Fri Jul 17, 2020 8:21 pm

I met part of the GCN crew in the Atacama. Video is yet to be published.

From our discussions I'm convinced they (white priviledged males) are all about inclusiveness.

It may not show in the discussed video but I'm sure there are others.

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BigdummySteve wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 7:37 pm
Whatever the reason GCN’s presenting team reflects reality, to get the job first you have to be a cyclist, as the video above demonstrates actual front of camera personality helps as well.

I might be simplistic but I do believe we are a vastly different county than America, the vast majority of us accept everyone as they are, adopting their problems is not helpful.
Pretty much how I feel about it.

redefined_cycles
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Re: GCN does bikepacking

Post by redefined_cycles » Fri Jul 17, 2020 9:04 pm

:lol: can I say a couple of words...

2008 or 2006(I think it was that year but lost count as I had a tshirt for most of the years after that until about 2014 or summat) I had my first proper mtb break-in... It was on a ride called the Colne Valley Mountain Bike Challenge (CVMBC they'll know it as on SingleTrackW)... Anyway, aside from the fact that it opened my eyes that I'd not been mountain biking for the few years preceding it whilst on the canal towpaths!

Aside from the eye opener about proper MTB (it touches the Peaks) I was the last finisher on the 30 mile course. About 5 or 6 hours and the organiser couldn't have been nicer about it as usual final finishers are done in about 4 or 4.5H. Anyway, I'm pretty certain I was the only asian or BAME on the course that day. Then for subsequent years I think I recall 1 black chap and another asian lad. That was probably at least 2 or 3 years later.

The most BAME I've ever seen on the course (after my canvassing you could argue and trying to being my mates) has been about 7 or 9. 5 or 6 being the ones that had come with me. Thats on a rider count of about 350 (last count) of which there were also only about 2 or 3 ladies that I'd ever seen :-bd

Similar numbers I've seen on other challenges (maybe aboit 0.5% of the total riders

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Re: GCN does bikepacking

Post by redefined_cycles » Fri Jul 17, 2020 9:10 pm

Oh... I forgot to add. After a few years (maybe 7) I got bored of the mtb challenges and me and my cronies (well my elder and younger bro whom I'd recruited to the cycling scene but only the elder now rides on 'fun' routes) wanted a change. Well actually it was me that wanted to learn how to mapread and the beat way with my dyslexia was to get stuck in.

OS maps on mapboards we started attending the Dark and White bike orienteering (whatever its called now) in The Peaks. Did that for at least 3 years on a few rides per year. Ptich size was on average 40 or 50 riders if that... Only ever saw 3 BAME folk on there and I was one of em.

Girls, I think I ever counted about 3 to 5 aswell...

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JohnClimber
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Re: GCN does bikepacking

Post by JohnClimber » Fri Jul 17, 2020 9:52 pm

Forget the colours of people and riders.

10 minutes in and it's just an advert for Kamoot....

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ScotRoutes
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Re: GCN does bikepacking

Post by ScotRoutes » Fri Jul 17, 2020 10:21 pm

The lack of BAME participation in outdoor activities goes way beyond cycling. It has been an issue in hillwalking and mountaineering for as long as I can remember.

I'd reckon that one of the reasons is a lack of role models. We've seen the same with female involvement and how that improves once there are a few "breakthrough" examples. Of course, even then it takes a lot of effort. It's a shame that there is no equivalent of the Adventure Syndicate to help encourage BAME youngsters.


This might also be a good place for me to comment on another matter...

This forum has exposed me to more of Muslim culture than I've experienced in my whole life so far. I make no secret of my atheism but Shafs wee stories and explanations have been illuminating and helped me understand things a lot and I'd like to thank him for that.

jobro
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Re: GCN does bikepacking

Post by jobro » Fri Jul 17, 2020 10:36 pm

GCN have Manon Lloyd who is good on the road side and Katherine Moore on the off road side, Katherine does the Unpaved gravel/bikepacking podcast too,

Katherine hasn't worked there for over a year. Emma Pooley didn't last long either. Both really added something to the channel.

Dean
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Re: GCN does bikepacking

Post by Dean » Sat Jul 18, 2020 1:43 am

ScotRoutes wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 10:21 pm
The lack of BAME participation in outdoor activities goes way beyond cycling. It has been an issue in hillwalking and mountaineering for as long as I can remember.

I'd reckon that one of the reasons is a lack of role models. We've seen the same with female involvement and how that improves once there are a few "breakthrough" examples. Of course, even then it takes a lot of effort. It's a shame that there is no equivalent of the Adventure Syndicate to help encourage BAME youngsters.
I have considered alongside lack of role models is a lack of access to the countryside. I would not be a mountaineer or mountain biker if I lived in a major urban area, for exercise I would be playing ball sports in the park with friends at the weekend, jogging or going to the gym, possibly road cycling but not offroad. None of my white urban-dwelling friends from school and young adulthood were interested in hiking/mountain biking, let alone BAME friends.

I know only a few black men who are outdoorsy, they started hiking and skiing in their mid-fifties. They never had any desire to participate until they went/forced to go on work-sponsored trips and now they have started taking their families every year on holiday. I cannot remember if they said that there was a social/cultural/financial barrier which prevented entry, or rather that they just had never considered outdoor sports (I have never considered going fishing/skydiving/horse riding FWIW).

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ScotRoutes
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Re: GCN does bikepacking

Post by ScotRoutes » Sat Jul 18, 2020 8:04 am

Dean wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 1:43 am
I have considered alongside lack of role models is a lack of access to the countryside. I would not be a mountaineer or mountain biker if I lived in a major urban area
I wouldn't rule that out, but I was born and brought up in Central Edinburgh. My influences were my father, who took us on camping holidays, and wee walks while on those, and the Scouts. However, I lost interest in my early teens due to discovering motorbikes (and girls). Many of the pioneers of British climbing were very working class blokes from Glasgow, Manchester, Sheffield etc escaping their urban constraints. Of course there are other distractions now.

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Re: GCN does bikepacking

Post by jameso » Sat Jul 18, 2020 8:22 am

I have considered alongside lack of role models is a lack of access to the countryside.
That might be part of it. I looked up something about this out of interest. It's old data but if the trend has continued it'll be more of a distinction now -

Percentage of usual residents living in urban and rural areas belonging to the White British ethnic group
Classification 2001 2011 Percentage point change
Urban 85.2 77.2 -8.0
Rural 96.5 95.0 -1.5
Total 87.5 80.5 -7.0
Source: 2001 and 2011 Census - Office for National Statistics

The UK's ethnic minority population is rising, yet the percentage of people from the white British group living in rural areas is pretty much consistent, whereas for ethnic minorities it fell 8% in 10 years. If only 5% of people who have countryside on their doorstep are non-white British yet they're up to 20% of the population (living in the places these numbers refer to) does that mean there's less likelihood of 'getting into' cycling/MTB, climbing, hiking etc, the things that add up to bike camping/touring having appeal?
Cycle use and commuting is high in urban areas, though riding to work doesn't seem to be much of an inspiration to ride more at the weekend, we certainly have a clear customer group at Evans who are commuter-only and anecdotal evidence from staff is that very few show interest in a weekend road bike/MTB.

A lot more women have come into cycling in the last 10 years, when you think about how far ahead the gender inclusivity topic is and where eg. the TCR has got to with mixed entry levels, it's easy to see how the racial inclusivity is still low. The TNR had a good response to actively encouraging women to ride (guaranteed entry), comments why went along the lines of that marketing guideline, 'people like us do things like this'. People generally are most likely to do things that align with others like themselves. Recently I did wonder why I didn't make that same TNR entry idea open to people from ethnic minorities. It just didn't occur to me then. I don't know of other events that are doing that, yet.
If cycling is to be more diverse, among other things that will help is the the majority (white males) need to show that it's not just for us. It's not the only thing but as the largest group we have the most influence. The more people there are on bikes the better. And I mean that RE cycling for transport as well as leisure.

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Re: GCN does bikepacking

Post by jameso » Sat Jul 18, 2020 8:31 am

Many of the pioneers of British climbing were very working class blokes from Glasgow, Manchester, Sheffield etc escaping their urban constraints.
That's a good point, gets me on a train of thought about age, culture, influences etc and whether you see the urban or rural environment as the one to escape from/to.

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Bearbonesnorm
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Re: GCN does bikepacking

Post by Bearbonesnorm » Sat Jul 18, 2020 9:01 am

Having being a coach / guide for 12 years or so, I obviously got to talk to a lot of people. One thing which many highlighted was that they found the countryside scary and felt somewhat unsafe there ... make of that what you will.

With regard to women (I coached more women than men, which was good because in the main they'd actually listen :wink:), many of those said they were put off cycling by the competitive element often portrayed by the cycling media. Personally, I believe this is why a fair number of women appear to gravitate towards the kind of riding that bikepackers often do ... some didn't like the overnight idea but they did enjoy what we could perhaps consider as old school XC.
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Re: GCN does bikepacking

Post by Cheddar Man » Sat Jul 18, 2020 9:10 am

Attitude as well. I ran a side line of taking people on hill walks etc after getting my WGL then ML. The attitude of some of the walking/climbing/riding communities is pretty shoddy to be honest, and not very welcoming. I have heard experienced, and otherwise very kind people saying things like 'the basic problem is that black people just can't read maps' WTF :o White people can't either until someone teaches them!

The stats for general outdoors participation of the BAME community in outdoors pursuits of all kinds are pretty low. This is from a recent paper from the James Hutton Institute

Overall, the population groups least likely to report using the outdoors on a weekly basis (across
both years) were:
• People with a disability
• Muslims
• Residents in Scotland's most deprived areas
• Black and other non-white minority ethnic groups
• People aged 76 and over


I guess a couple of them are reasonably easy to see, the elderly and the disabled, but the middle three are more complex. I think that the notion that @redfined_cycles * raises, that pretty much you could count the BAME participants on one hand is the thing. Role models, a bit of positive action and a more welcoming attitude is the key. The GCN thing is probably just symptomatic of the sport and activities we do, I did the WRT last year, and I may have been looking the wrong way, but I don't remember seeing any black or brown faces there? I commute to work on a bike, to a hospital with around 5000 employees, but the bike compounds have only white faces locking up their bikes!

I really don't know what the answer is, but a more inclusive attitude must be the starting point.



*I know I earned a degree of notoriety on here for picking up @redifined_cycles on here for his comment about arranging a ride and saying he didn't want any women to join in, and I have to live with that, but actually that is kind of my point about attitude. I get his religious reasons for saying that, but from an inclusivity point of view of encouraging all under-represented groups to experience the outdoors safely and in experienced company it was pretty awful.

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Re: GCN does bikepacking

Post by jameso » Sat Jul 18, 2020 9:11 am

With regard to women .... many of those said they were put off cycling by the competitive element often portrayed by the cycling media.
I expect the same for men also, maybe just a lower % as so many of us can be competitive idiots fairly easily : )

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Re: GCN does bikepacking

Post by Bearbonesnorm » Sat Jul 18, 2020 9:23 am

[Devil's} Just for a minute, has anyone actually considered that unrepresented groups simply might not want to join in? There's lots of activities other people enjoy but hold absolutely no appeal for me - I'm sure we're all the same [Advocate]
I expect the same for men also
Perhaps but in my experience, most would never openly admit it.
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Re: GCN does bikepacking

Post by redefined_cycles » Sat Jul 18, 2020 9:29 am

saying he didn't want any women to join in
Just for the record. In case anyone from STW is reading. I didn't actually say that. Just saying... :-bd

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Re: GCN does bikepacking

Post by redefined_cycles » Sat Jul 18, 2020 9:35 am

Here's the thread

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=16014&p=201027#p201027

For reference above only...
Last edited by redefined_cycles on Sat Jul 18, 2020 9:54 am, edited 3 times in total.

Cheddar Man
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Re: GCN does bikepacking

Post by Cheddar Man » Sat Jul 18, 2020 9:38 am

Bearbonesnorm wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 9:23 am
[Devil's} Just for a minute, has anyone actually considered that unrepresented groups simply might not want to join in? There's lots of activities other people enjoy but hold absolutely no appeal for me - I'm sure we're all the same [Advocate]
That is a really valid point, but as a 'business owner' (of sorts) are you not concerned that 56% of the population are 18-59 years old, over 1/2 of ethnic groups fall into that age range, and you could be making a small killing from them if just 20% of them took up outdoors pursuits!

If the BAME community did not drive, in the numbers we see them not engaging in outdoor pursuits, the motor industry would invest millions in engaging with those communities. When we realise they don't cycle/climb/walk/camp in those numbers we say "well, maybe they don't want to" and besides "the tall ones are over represented in basketball".

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Re: GCN does bikepacking

Post by Chew » Sat Jul 18, 2020 9:56 am

Cheddar Man wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 9:10 am
I did the WRT last year, and I may have been looking the wrong way, but I don't remember seeing any black or brown faces?
Maybe not the turn of phrase I’d use :???:
My hazy memory can recall at least 2 people at last years WRT who may class themselves as being BAME.
Plus the largest percentage of female participants too

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Re: GCN does bikepacking

Post by Chew » Sat Jul 18, 2020 10:08 am

redefined_cycles wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 9:29 am
saying he didn't want any women to join in
Just for the record. In case anyone from STW is reading. I didn't actually say that. Just saying... :-bd
Sorry Shaf, but you did.

If people want equality then it has to work in all directions

redefined_cycles
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Re: GCN does bikepacking

Post by redefined_cycles » Sat Jul 18, 2020 10:13 am

Chew wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 10:08 am
redefined_cycles wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 9:29 am
saying he didn't want any women to join in
Just for the record. In case anyone from STW is reading. I didn't actually say that. Just saying... :-bd
Sorry Shaf, but you did.

If people want equality then it has to work in all directions
Chew... I meant I didn't in that context. Hence why I added the link below it for the actual wording...

Not
didn't want any women to join in
But this is what I wrote
Due to religious preferences there'll be no pubstops or alcohol or ladies (or girls or women... whatever the felame of the species that might be reading prefers to be called :-bd )...
Which I agree could have been written better. Anyway, point taken

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Re: GCN does bikepacking

Post by redefined_cycles » Sat Jul 18, 2020 10:16 am

Anyway... I did a bit of rehab and am reformed. Now I just dont try to organise rides and let others continue taking the lead :-bd

Chew
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Re: GCN does bikepacking

Post by Chew » Sat Jul 18, 2020 10:32 am

redefined_cycles wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 10:13 am
Chew... I meant I didn't in that context. Hence why I added the link below it for the actual wording...

Not
didn't want any women to join in
But this is what I wrote
Due to religious preferences there'll be no pubstops or alcohol or ladies (or girls or women... whatever the felame of the species that might be reading prefers to be called :-bd )...
Which I agree could have been written better. Anyway, point taken
Completely agree with you Shaf that you didn’t mean any offence :-bd

However, discrimination isn’t right for whatever reasons.
I could say “ I’m organising a ride but due to my personal beliefs I can’t ride with {insert minority of your choice}” I’d be discriminating against people for a reason they have no control over.
This is how society becomes separated and divided, not inclusive and integrated.

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Re: GCN does bikepacking

Post by jameso » Sat Jul 18, 2020 10:42 am

Bearbonesnorm wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 9:23 am
[Devil's} Just for a minute, has anyone actually considered that unrepresented groups simply might not want to join in? There's lots of activities other people enjoy but hold absolutely no appeal for me - I'm sure we're all the same [Advocate]
Well the numbers say that's the case but there must be reasons for it (not understood hence this bit of the thread) - I don't believe people differ in their enjoyment of experiences only because of race, more on how they may be biased or prejudiced towards an experience from a cultural background that can be linked to race. That's part of what I was thinking about with the urban<>rural thing - you could take urban culture ie those who grow up in a city and suggest those from that culture have different influences and are less inclined to take up hill walking or MTB - that culture would include people of all races in the UK. If there's a racial or ethnic culture difference in urban or rural living it would follow that there will be a racial difference in those passtimes.
That was what I was going to suggest about your point about basketball - I could be way off but if in the USA it's something that has an urban or city bias, the difference in racial backgrounds between urban and rural in USA seems similar to the UK and % of Black or African American is 10% higher than UK. Those who are proportionally more represented in urban areas have more likelihood of getting good early in life at things that are part of urban culture. That availability, and role models. It's probably a cyclic thing after a certain point. Same with cycle racing culture being European-dominated for so long. Would guess that role models are the biggest part of it though.

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