Stupid BB/Tool sizes

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FLV
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Stupid BB/Tool sizes

Post by FLV » Wed May 27, 2020 10:52 am

I dont need anything as such but just wanted a little moan. You have been warned.

Blooming stupid BB's and their many stupid tool sizes...

I've long been annoyed at the shimano XT BB situation with the stupid little plastic thing they ship with the XT BB's in order to allow you to fit one with the metal tool I've had for years. But at least they gave me the chance to actually fit it, even if the plastic tat is crap.

But now, I need to get a new BB for my Arkose and there it is, a stupid Praxis works M30 BB in there. Obviously, I could rive the old one out with a stilson but that's not ideal as I want to fit another.
The chainring(s) wont last loads longer I don't think, so in order to get the summer from them (to be honest, 1700km isn't enough life for chainrings either, but the inner is starting to pick up). So If I'm to do so not only do I need to buy a proprietary BB specific for this crank but I also need a proprietary tool to fit the bloody thing. Stupid. Annoying and Stupid.
It may well be the same tool as another 30mm axle BB but I don't have any of those so I wouldn't know or care.
Also, is it M30 or M30 thru Mr Praxis? I guess I'll take it apart and measure it then. I wasn't busy anyway. Also, who puts different bearings sizes on each side, stupid and pointless, or was it designed by two different people?

Looking at the price of chainrings for the future, I may as well just buy a new chainset, but obviously then I need a new BB, Cassette, Chain - and a load of metal goes in the bin to save me wasting money on a tool I'll never use again.

pfft. Stupid.
I don't feel any better after that either. :cry:

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sean_iow
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Re: Stupid BB/Tool sizes

Post by sean_iow » Wed May 27, 2020 11:01 am

FLV wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 10:52 am
Obviously, I could rive the old one out with a stilson but that's not ideal as I want to fit another.
I fitted a DUB bb for a fried once and as I didn't have the tool I just wrapped the bb with masking tape to protect it and used the grips. Took the tape off and it was unmarked. I feel your pain though, none of the tools are cheap and unless you have multiple bikes with the same standards the tools will hardly get any use.
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FLV
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Re: Stupid BB/Tool sizes

Post by FLV » Wed May 27, 2020 11:14 am

Just winds me up. Turns a wear and tear bearing issue into a £50 problem (at sale/discounted internet prices)

Stupid.

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BigdummySteve
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Re: Stupid BB/Tool sizes

Post by BigdummySteve » Wed May 27, 2020 11:16 am

Hope 30mm bb’s are good in that you don’t need to remove them, just knock the old bearings out and pop new ones in.
:-bd

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ScotRoutes
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Re: Stupid BB/Tool sizes

Post by ScotRoutes » Wed May 27, 2020 11:17 am

If I were you I'd just take the hit and change the chainset and BB now. The Praxis ones are, err, problematic.

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FLV
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Re: Stupid BB/Tool sizes

Post by FLV » Wed May 27, 2020 11:22 am

ScotRoutes wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 11:17 am
If I were you I'd just take the hit and change the chainset and BB now. The Praxis ones are, err, problematic.
I probably will, the bast**d thing can creak and grind for a bit longer first though x(

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Re: Stupid BB/Tool sizes

Post by jameso » Wed May 27, 2020 11:30 am

So not trying to divert blame on that point, but I agree and if I had my way the bikes would either use square tapers or Shimano 24mm HT2. Nothing else. Demand for gearing/ring sizes that Shimano don't/didn't have at certain prices, or being competitive at price points where good Shimano cranks can't be specced, makes that difficult (eg Shimano cranks at Tiagra-105 level cost ~2X vs FSAs that work with external BBs and 11s). Faff like this or getting bearings and freehubs for the myrid Novatec options etc is making the push back to full, serviceable Shimano easier.

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ScotRoutes
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Re: Stupid BB/Tool sizes

Post by ScotRoutes » Wed May 27, 2020 11:35 am

Yeah, I almost bought a Praxis chainset on account of the chainring sizes. Luckily I had experience of them on some of our hire bikes...

The other one I considered was a Miche Graff, which at least had the advantage of using 24mm HT BBs.

It's just a shame it took Shimano so long to offer a sub-compact.
Last edited by ScotRoutes on Wed May 27, 2020 11:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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FLV
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Re: Stupid BB/Tool sizes

Post by FLV » Wed May 27, 2020 11:41 am

I certainly don't blame the product guys for specifying the Praxis chainset. It actually works (until worn) completely fine. I was more than happy with it for the price point at which I bought the bike.

I'm only annoyed its different now I need to work on it.

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PaulB2
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Re: Stupid BB/Tool sizes

Post by PaulB2 » Wed May 27, 2020 11:45 am

I've just mentally budgeted for just replacing the crankset when the BB needs replacing since I want smaller front rings anyway and praxis don't go any smaller.

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Re: Stupid BB/Tool sizes

Post by jameso » Wed May 27, 2020 12:11 pm

FLV wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 11:41 am
I certainly don't blame the product guys for specifying the Praxis chainset. It actually works (until worn) completely fine. I was more than happy with it for the price point at which I bought the bike.

I'm only annoyed its different now I need to work on it.
Understanding/generous of you.. I think the whole product life cycle should come into spec decisions and I've let that drift too far down the list. eg, I'm not sure how many of the Evans workshops will have that tool either. We had a similar conversation about an FSA 30mm axle on another bike a while back.

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Re: Stupid BB/Tool sizes

Post by thenorthwind » Wed May 27, 2020 8:58 pm

I understand your frustration. I've been feeling the same recently, coincidentally also involving my an Arkose, not that it's relevant. I knew when I bought it that I'd regret buying an 11 speed bike, particularly since I already have two 10 speed bikes.

Now I've built a pair of wheels for it using my old Hope rear hub. I knew the old freehub would be an issue, but didn't really
look into it till it was too late.Turns out since only 11 speed mountain bike cassettes will fit on 8/9/10 speed freehubs, a cassette's going to cost me £60 at least, and I need a derailleur extender so the mech will work with the extra gears that I don't need (11-32 was fine, but the lowest MTB cassettes are 11-40). A straight replacement cassette is £35 and a similar 10 speed is £25. :roll:

I'd be perfectly happy with a 10 speed drivetrain, but that would mean changing at least the rear mech, existing cassette, levers, and brakes.

Moan over.

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Re: Stupid BB/Tool sizes

Post by ScotRoutes » Wed May 27, 2020 9:25 pm

thenorthwind wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 8:58 pm
I need a derailleur extender so the mech will work with the extra gears that I don't need (11-32 was fine, but the lowest MTB cassettes are 11-40)
You may not. I'd try it without the extender first.

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Re: Stupid BB/Tool sizes

Post by sean_iow » Wed May 27, 2020 11:03 pm

thenorthwind wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 8:58 pm
Now I've built a pair of wheels for it using my old Hope rear hub. I knew the old freehub would be an issue, but didn't really
look into it till it was too late.Turns out since only 11 speed mountain bike cassettes will fit on 8/9/10 speed freehubs
Which hope hub is it? I've put a road 11 speed compatible freehub on my pro 2, you need to use the pro 2 evo axle, the evo 2mm spacer and the evo end caps, technically only the driveside but they only come in pairs. Obviously this still costs but means you can use a road 11 speed cassette. I had to do this to use my pro 2 wheel on my gravel bike which is 2 x 11 sram rival.
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Re: Stupid BB/Tool sizes

Post by composite » Wed May 27, 2020 11:56 pm

I had this issue about a month ago. Went to replace my 105 BB with an older ht2 then realised my tool didn't fit! After a Twitter rant, the consensus response was that I would get an adaptor if I ordered a new 105 BB. Ordered one and it arrived with no adaptor! I almost sh1t. It was a Merlin special... unboxed...

In the end one of the guys who had been replying to the Twitter thread took pitty on my frustration and was kind enough to pop a spare adaptor in the post gratis.

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Re: Stupid BB/Tool sizes

Post by redefined_cycles » Thu May 28, 2020 12:54 am

thenorthwind wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 8:58 pm
I understand your frustration. I've been feeling the same recently, coincidentally also involving my an Arkose, not that it's relevant. I knew when I bought it that I'd regret buying an 11 speed bike, particularly since I already have two 10 speed bikes.

Now I've built a pair of wheels for it using my old Hope rear hub. I knew the old freehub would be an issue, but didn't really
look into it till it was too late.Turns out since only 11 speed mountain bike cassettes will fit on 8/9/10 speed freehubs, a cassette's going to cost me £60 at least, and I need a derailleur extender so the mech will work with the extra gears that I don't need (11-32 was fine, but the lowest MTB cassettes are 11-40). A straight replacement cassette is £35 and a similar 10 speed is £25. :roll:

I'd be perfectly happy with a 10 speed drivetrain, but that would mean changing at least the rear mech, existing cassette, levers, and brakes.

Moan over.
You might just have moaned in the right place/right time. I have an 11 speed cassette which I had reamed on the inside (think it's 1.8mm that needs shaving off) by local engineering place for bout £20 to makw it fit on my 10 speed hub (shimano standard spline). Very good nick as you cant see any of thw teeth as worn and was always used with a low threshold (for changing) fresh chain...

Let me know if any good to you

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Re: Stupid BB/Tool sizes

Post by redefined_cycles » Thu May 28, 2020 12:58 am

Alternately Shimano actually now make their biggest (ultegra and 105 road types) 11 speed cassettes with a removable inner ring which allows em to fit over a 10 speed cassette. 34 highest sprocket I think they are and I wouldn't see em being a problem being used on mtb... if it was any of that Campag and SRAM tripe then I might be worried.. Thata just my opinion :smile:

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Re: Stupid BB/Tool sizes

Post by jameso » Thu May 28, 2020 6:34 am

Turns out since only 11 speed mountain bike cassettes will fit on 8/9/10 speed freehubs,
CS-HG8000-11 - a road cassette designed to fit 10s freehub spacing. Still not cheap but available in 11-34.

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Re: Stupid BB/Tool sizes

Post by jameso » Thu May 28, 2020 6:35 am

redefined_cycles wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 12:58 am
Alternately Shimano actually now make their biggest (ultegra and 105 road types) 11 speed cassettes with a removable inner ring which allows em to fit over a 10 speed cassette. 34 highest sprocket I think they are and I wouldn't see em being a problem being used on mtb... if it was any of that Campag and SRAM tripe then I might be worried.. Thata just my opinion :smile:
Useful to know - I thought it was just the HG8000 that fitted.

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Re: Stupid BB/Tool sizes

Post by redefined_cycles » Thu May 28, 2020 8:13 am

Technically in the Ultegra range its the hg800 which some sites state is road bike specific but I'm pretty certain it'll take to an mtb freehub no probs

https://bike.shimano.com/en-EU/product/ ... 00-11.html

Then in the 105 range I think I must've gotten my wires crossed (ie. You're right James) and on double checking it appears its the other way round: smaller than 11-34 can take to 10 and 11 speed shimano freehubs according to Merlins!

Image

Image

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Re: Stupid BB/Tool sizes

Post by PaulE » Thu May 28, 2020 9:00 am

I've skimmed the 1.8mm off the back of a few cassettes for friends before now. If you have a cassette you want doing then once I'm back in school (I'm an engineering teacher, not a student!) then I can probably sort it for you.
Image

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Re: Stupid BB/Tool sizes

Post by FLV » Thu May 28, 2020 11:35 am

So Road cassettes are wider right?

So given that I have a set of Novatech hubs with a 105 cassette (11-34) - presumably no spacers (not looked) therefore road spacing freehub.
If I want to use a set of Pro2 Evo hubs I can use a Sunrace Mtb cassette, MS8 (11-36t) that'll work fine,
Then... if I wanted to swap wheels back at any point, I'd then just need the spacer for the back of the free hub to use the mtb cassette and it'll work like a dream...?

(Ignoring derailleur tooth capacity, tweaking the indexing whatever etc, which will be fine)

*may as well fix all this whilst I'm sorting the BB out

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Re: Stupid BB/Tool sizes

Post by Lazarus » Thu May 28, 2020 12:01 pm

God i miss standrads just buy whatever it definetly fits

Just realised i need a new 11 speed cassette and just realised i cannot just go buy one I need to see what fits
Bless you industry as I really need all my bikes to not be interchagable for parts or bits
For clarification I can get a road one and ream it down or a MTB one and it will fit - is it that simple?
I need a 32 not sure i can get a MTB one taht small in 11 speed. - its fr a nackae flat commute i dont need a bail out gear even on a 50 front ring!

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FLV
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Re: Stupid BB/Tool sizes

Post by FLV » Thu May 28, 2020 12:17 pm

Indeed.

I dont really need the 36t either, I have a 34 now and a 32 would be ideal. But, if a 36 it must be to make it all work. So be it.

Now, back to bottom brackets

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Re: Stupid BB/Tool sizes

Post by thenorthwind » Fri May 29, 2020 1:21 pm

Thanks for all the replies (and apologies for the thread hijack) - sometimes it pays to have a moan.
ScotRoutes wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 9:25 pm
You may not. I'd try it without the extender first.
I'll try it - thought I might as well get an extender anyway as I may need it on another bike.
sean_iow wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 11:03 pm
Which hope hub is it? I've put a road 11 speed compatible freehub on my pro 2, you need to use the pro 2 evo axle, the evo 2mm spacer and the evo end caps, technically only the driveside but they only come in pairs. Obviously this still costs but means you can use a road 11 speed cassette. I had to do this to use my pro 2 wheel on my gravel bike which is 2 x 11 sram rival.
Bulb/XC - before thru-axles were even a thing, I'm afraid.
redefined_cycles wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 12:54 am
You might just have moaned in the right place/right time. I have an 11 speed cassette which I had reamed on the inside (think it's 1.8mm that needs shaving off) by local engineering place for bout £20 to makw it fit on my 10 speed hub (shimano standard spline). Very good nick as you cant see any of thw teeth as worn and was always used with a low threshold (for changing) fresh chain...

Let me know if any good to you
Cheers Shaf - I've already ordered an 11-speed 11-40 so I'll use that for now, but will consider doing that next time. So there's enough material on the spider that you can machine that bit off without affecting how it holds the sprockets, or fouling the hub shell? Guess that might depend on the hub.
PaulE wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 9:00 am
I've skimmed the 1.8mm off the back of a few cassettes for friends before now. If you have a cassette you want doing then once I'm back in school (I'm an engineering teacher, not a student!) then I can probably sort it for you.
Cheers Paul. I might be able to get it done at work (uni engineering department) if it comes to that.

Interesting info about the Shimano road cassettes that may fit but will admit I'm totally confused and have spent enough of my life looking at cassettes on the internet for a while :lol:
FLV wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 11:35 am
So Road cassettes are wider right?
Yup.
So given that I have a set of Novatech hubs with a 105 cassette (11-34) - presumably no spacers (not looked) therefore road spacing freehub.
If that's an 11 speed road cassette, then yes, it must be an 11 speed freehub (it's a road cassette so shouldn't have spacers either way).
If I want to use a set of Pro2 Evo hubs I can use a Sunrace Mtb cassette, MS8 (11-36t) that'll work fine,
Then... if I wanted to swap wheels back at any point, I'd then just need the spacer for the back of the free hub to use the mtb cassette and it'll work like a dream...?
Can't see if that MS8 is 11sp road width or MTB width - I've just bought the MX8 which is MTB width, but lowest ratio is 11-40. If it's MTB width then yes, you'll need the spacer, but if it's road width, it should fit your freehub anyway (assuming your assumption before is correct).
Disclaimer: as I understand it (which could be complete horse****)
Now, back to bottom brackets
Good idea :-bd

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