Why are trekking pole shelters popular with cyclists?

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oreocereus
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Why are trekking pole shelters popular with cyclists?

Post by oreocereus »

I use one because I backpack more than I bikepack, so i just my pyramid tarp that I take for backpacking.

But the big advantage of that tarp is that it can set up with something dual use - ie my trekking poles, saving significant volume and pack size.

The disadvantages are that it’s a fairly inefficient material+footprint:volume ratio.

On a bike, you lose the advantage of using something you already carry to set up your shelter and have to carry a vertical support pole.

If you already have to add the volume and weight of a pole, would one not be best served by an arch pole tent (eg the tarptent rainbow)? You get a smaller footprint for more livable volume (ie more camping options - helpful if you’re camping in urbanish areas), and the difference in the weight and volume of an arch pole vs a collapsible vertical support pole seems minimal.

So I’m curious about why trekking pole shelters seem popular amongst bikepackers?


**Obviously for super light systems (eg mini tarp and ground sheet), an arch pole tent won’t win out.
ScotRoutes
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Re: Why are trekking pole shelters popular with cyclists?

Post by ScotRoutes »

Arch poles tend to be longer (and therefore heavier) than an upright.

Edit: I've used my bike as tarp support, but some folk don't like that idea. Headroom is certainly limited,

Edit 2: I'm not averse to an arch pole. My "winter" tent is a Scarp 1 and I previously owned a Macpac Microlight.
Last edited by ScotRoutes on Tue May 19, 2020 11:18 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Cheeky Monkey
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Re: Why are trekking pole shelters popular with cyclists?

Post by Cheeky Monkey »

Back packing tends to have a slightly more mature product line for lightweight shelters. Bike packers wanting to save weight and bulk naturally started using these but some support was needed and hence Stu (and others) churn out the odd, relatively lightweight and compact, pole to supplant walking sticks that your back-packer would be carrying / use.

Bike packing comes (in part) from folks bivying and/or using a tarp, which were initially the cheaper / easier / simpler / available options. I think given the aforementioned urge to minimise volume and weight, compared to these systems, lightweight walking shelters were an obvious "choice".

To some proportion of bike-packers camp "comforts" were less of a concern, more just some shelter for a bit of kip before carrying on.

Bike-packing and a lot of "dedicated" gear is a niche within a niche and probably too small a potential market to have too much specifically developed for it. Hence "acquiring" gear from other pursuits. Therein lies a degree of compromise.

Of course, some of it is just habit, following what someone else has done, chance, availability etc.

I'm speculating quite a bit and it's only opinion :cool:
Lazarus
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Re: Why are trekking pole shelters popular with cyclists?

Post by Lazarus »

Well the advantage they have is that they are tried and tested and usually been adapted from feedback by users - ie the stealth raised the groundheet bath tub sides to prevent rain ingress so you are getting a known product with feedback and the likethey work basically and will not be ripped apart by wind or fail in rain [ everything has limits obviously]

As for poles whatever tent you take you are going to have to take poles* and there is no way they can be dual use for a cyclist so its hardly a downside to say your tent will require poles - technically i probably could set it up with out poles using a tree [or branch]and the bars at the rear but its faff for about 60ish gramms of carbon poles
Finally theyare much lighter than most other tenst available - though to some degree this is changing.
* I assume even the tarp fans take a pole
boxelder
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Re: Why are trekking pole shelters popular with cyclists?

Post by boxelder »

I have a Trekkertent, designed for trekking pole use. I've replaced the front pole with a lightweight, short section tent pole and can use the front wheel off the bike in place of the rear pole. If I also use it backpacking, I'd still take 2 tent poles, as I find walking poles an unnecessary faff.
jameso
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Re: Why are trekking pole shelters popular with cyclists?

Post by jameso »

So easy to carry a pole against a bike frame tube and the weight is minimal.
Edit: I've used my bike as tarp support, but some folk don't like that idea.
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'bikes are for riding, not for tent poles or strapping tarps to' :grin:
(I like using my bike as a tarp support)
firestarter
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Re: Why are trekking pole shelters popular with cyclists?

Post by firestarter »

I'm still undecided, I currently have a lux mini peak with adjustable pole weighs about 2kg but has loads of room and doesn't suffer with condensation has a single nest in that I unclip from the roof when not in bed so makes even more room to sit on I can even put a bike I n the porch and have done before

But it is 2kg I dont mind carrying that on my back walking but it's a bit bulky on the bike ironically I'm debating an actual tent for when on the bike but dont have too much cash

It's looking like a tn laser comp as I can get one for 250ish or if I go pole design a lunar solo and carbon pole for similar money

I superlight packable but costing 250 minipeak would be ideal 🤣
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whitestone
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Re: Why are trekking pole shelters popular with cyclists?

Post by whitestone »

The issues about weight and bulk have mostly been covered but there's also stealth camping to consider. A tarp is seen as much less intrusive than even a small backpacking tent, generally it's not seen as "camping". Given the "no wild camping" in England and Wales (let's head Colin off at the border :lol: ) that's a big plus.

We've a Big Agnes Copper Spur tent that we'll occasionally use bikepacking (it's not the bikepacking version), at 1500g that's just 750g each which per person is on a par with something like the Lunar Solo and for a roomy two man tent is pretty decent. The poles fit fine in between the dry bag and harness on the bars so no worries about carrying them.

For ultralightweight I've a Trekkertent DCF tarp which combined with one of Stu's poles and using the bike's handlebars as a second pole is roomy enough for me.

I've come to prefer tarps - very connected with the environment around you - waking up to see deer grazing a few metres away just wouldn't be possible in a tent where the rustle of material and sliding of the zip would have sent them running before you even knew they were there.
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firestarter
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Re: Why are trekking pole shelters popular with cyclists?

Post by firestarter »

I've just dug out my mini peak and weighed it it 1930g with outer,single inner, 8 pegs, tyvek footprint 210x150 and an adjustable pole that's actually pretty heavy so i think if I compare with a laser competition that weighs 1000g with decent pegs and 330g for the footprint I'll take the extra 600g for the space it gives me . I think ....haha
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Bearbonesnorm
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Re: Why are trekking pole shelters popular with cyclists?

Post by Bearbonesnorm »

I generally think it stemmed from a desire to carry a shelter that was light / packable / quick to set up ... yep, I've just described a flat tarp but there are times when a flat tarp might not offer the desired level of cover, so a shaped tarp becomes useful. It's a very blurry line between tarp and tent at times but generally trekking pole tents tend to be of a lighter design that's easily packable and quick to erect ... see above.

Also worth considering that many backpackers don't carry walking poles either. I certainly sell plenty of poles to non cycling folk.
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Re: Why are trekking pole shelters popular with cyclists?

Post by mfezela »

May I suggest "Why are trekking pole shelters popular with SOME cyclists?

IME, TSOs (Tarp shaped objects) are most commonly used by those on short trips, 2-5 days/nights or where heavy rainfalls and/or creepy-crawlies are not a factor. For long distance travels a tent is, again IMO, essential.
oreocereus
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Re: Why are trekking pole shelters popular with cyclists?

Post by oreocereus »

So it seems a lot of it comes from the fact that lightweight backpacking tarps/shaped tarps/tarptents/full tents are simply more considered designs, especially in terms of being lightweight, than a arch pole tents.

I think, unless using proper tarp (ie no inner or attached inner eg a “tarp tent”) arch poles present serious up sides. Trekkertents Phreeranger is 890g with poles (in 20d silpoly). Tarptents bowfin or moment is about 900g with carbon poles. The very popular SMD lunar solo is 740g before adding poles (so 800g with a pole?)
Both alternatives are double walls and more spacious, but are of course about 100g heavier.


Of course my silpoly mid is less than 350g, and bivy is 150g (or I use a 70g ground sheet), which is of course pretty unbeatable in more conventional tent design. Still, on a long (5 month) bike trip I swapped it halfway for an arch pole tent nearly 3x as heavy and didn’t notice the weight penalty. But I haven’t put serious work into having a super light and nimble bike, so those changes aren’t as readily felt.
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Re: Why are trekking pole shelters popular with cyclists?

Post by Cheeky Monkey »

oreocereus wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 3:17 pm So it seems a lot of it comes from the fact that lightweight backpacking tarps/shaped tarps/tarptents/full tents are simply more considered designs, especially in terms of being lightweight, than a arch pole tents.

I think, unless using proper tarp (ie no inner or attached inner eg a “tarp tent”) arch poles present serious up sides. Trekkertents Phreeranger is 890g with poles (in 20d silpoly). Tarptents bowfin or moment is about 900g with carbon poles. The very popular SMD lunar solo is 740g before adding poles (so 800g with a pole?)
Both alternatives are double walls and more spacious, but are of course about 100g heavier.


Of course my silpoly mid is less than 350g, and bivy is 150g (or I use a 70g ground sheet), which is of course pretty unbeatable in more conventional tent design. Still, on a long (5 month) bike trip I swapped it halfway for an arch pole tent nearly 3x as heavy and didn’t notice the weight penalty. But I haven’t put serious work into having a super light and nimble bike, so those changes aren’t as readily felt.
If it works for you then it works. Some people may try and convince you there are rules to this stuff but it's all just riding bikes and sleeping in ditches really :wink:
oreocereus
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Re: Why are trekking pole shelters popular with cyclists?

Post by oreocereus »

Aye ;) I just like to hear how others make decisions.
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Re: Why are trekking pole shelters popular with cyclists?

Post by Bearbonesnorm »

I just like to hear how others make decisions.
I've come to realise that I'm too lazy for a tent and cba with the faff of pitching, striking and airing after use. :grin:
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Re: Why are trekking pole shelters popular with cyclists?

Post by Cheeky Monkey »

oreocereus wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 4:22 pm Aye ;) I just like to hear how others make decisions.
I've read your posts in the coffee forum. Shows a level of detail obsession bordering on the clinically commit-able, IMO :wink: :wink:
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sean_iow
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Re: Why are trekking pole shelters popular with cyclists?

Post by sean_iow »

This thread has prompted me to try something I've been thinking about for a while, the hooped tarp :smile:

Image

This is a mock-up using what I refer to as the 'race tarp' mainly because I used it on the HT550 and I have so many I have to tell them apart somehow. Instead of the normal straight front pole I've substituted the pole from my Lazer, mainly because it's the first flexy pole I had to hand. There's a bit of string across the bottom to hold the shape of the pole and the tarp is only balanced over it.

It confirms my thoughts that it would give more usable space to sit up in at the front for cooking/chores as it creates steeper walls. If I was to make one (which I've no plans for yet as I have too many shelters already) there would be a sleeve for the pole and I'd make a proper tape with eyelets to for the ends of the pole to keep the shape. The pole could also be set back and the front shaped down beak-style to give more protection from driven rain but I've always just pitched it with the front down-wind and not had an issue so maybe that would just be an unnecessary complication? The shape of the tarp might also need to be changed for the transition from curved to straight.

The Lazer pole is heavier than the straight pole by 77g. In the normal set-up the tarp, poles and pegs comes to exactly 500g on my scales. The poles are 10mm DAC so there is scope to save some weight. The tarp on it's own is 249g.

For comparison I pitched it with the straight pole and rested the curved one in front which shows up the extra width created by the curved pole. The straight pole is 1050mm long which is enough room for me to sit up.

Image

I've been meaning to try this for about a year so thanks for the prompt :-bd
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Re: Why are trekking pole shelters popular with cyclists?

Post by Bearbonesnorm »

Ooh, just playing with something similar Sean using the flexy carbon poles.
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oreocereus
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Re: Why are trekking pole shelters popular with cyclists?

Post by oreocereus »

Cheeky Monkey wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 5:40 pm
oreocereus wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 4:22 pm Aye ;) I just like to hear how others make decisions.
I've read your posts in the coffee forum. Shows a level of detail obsession bordering on the clinically commit-able, IMO :wink: :wink:
Haha!
I worked in coffee for a few years until quite recently, I was generally considered to “not serious enough” :rolleyes: coffee nerds might be worse than cyclist nerds in terms of obsession over tiny details - but it did keep things engaging and interesting in an otherwise fairly dead end field of expertise
oreocereus
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Re: Why are trekking pole shelters popular with cyclists?

Post by oreocereus »

That’s really neat Sean :-bd
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Re: Why are trekking pole shelters popular with cyclists?

Post by fatbikephil »

https://bikepacking.com/gear/six-moon-d ... lo-review/
About the lunar solo rather than a shaped tarp but a lot of what he says applies to the likes of Deschutes / hexamids etc. They are nice space to be in after a long (or even short) day. My Vango helium was like being in a coffin. OK to sleep in but not to spend quality time in. Plus they are versatile - use with a pole, hang of a tree, use a ground sheet, bivvy bag or mesh inner, less condensation and generally less......
ScotRoutes
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Re: Why are trekking pole shelters popular with cyclists?

Post by ScotRoutes »

Don't get carried away with the idea that folk choose tarps over tents due to the weight reduction.

Edit: Just weighed my Lunar Solo and pole: 690 g and 51 g respectively.
oreocereus
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Re: Why are trekking pole shelters popular with cyclists?

Post by oreocereus »

Ta. Didn’t realise the separate vertical poles could be that light.

And indeed, I like an airy tarp pitch more than a tent when conditions suit. Though I rarely find it warm enough in the UK to be inclined to go for a big open pitch. And in the UK I won’t take a tarp on more than a 2 day trip and only then if the forecast looks pretty stable.
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Alpinum
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Re: Why are trekking pole shelters popular with cyclists?

Post by Alpinum »

Lazarus wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 11:12 am there is no way they can be dual use for a cyclist
I'm happy to use a mid with a trekking pole (see other thread) as it comes in handy when fording, probing snow bridges and hiking trips during the days out of the saddle.

Image
Summiting during a mostly cycling trip. Two poles for one mid. Two poles for hiking.

Over the last, say, 10 years I must have spent 75 % of the nights out without my bike but hiking/skitouring/packrafting/kayaking. This kind of dictates what I use when out with the bike.
When I use a tarp, like short trips (also HT550) in uncertain weather, I use the bike to pitch the tarp.
Image
Solo

Image
Por dos

More on why mids somewhere in here:
Alpinum wrote: Mon May 11, 2020 9:58 pm If I decide/need to take a tent for bikepacking trips it's either;

Six Moon Designs Deschutes (the naked one). Sometimes in use naked, sometimes with a plastic ground sheet (mostly), self made bathtub floor or ripstop nylon/net. For a pole I use an old hiking pole with 150 g. And depending on conditions (weather/ground) various types of stakes, from 4 g to 24 g apiece.
This is for solo trips.

Locus Gear Khufu.
Pretty much as above, only bigger and a bit more wind resistant. Also DIY inner and floor. Mostly in use when my girlfriend and I go on long distance hikes (4 or more weeks), but also for bikepacking trips.
Has seen some big trips across 3 continents.
Pitched with one or two hiking poles and stakes depending on conditions.

Go Lite Shangri La 3.
Again, pretty much as above only bigger again. A palace for two. Got 2 cheap when Go Lite went bancrupt and are on our second Ookworks inner. For some trips we also just use a DIY floor - as above...
Yet, we don't use the hiking poles to pitch it, as they flex and vibrate too much for a calm night when nature is going berserk. Stake choices as always by conditions.

I made some improvements to make them more capable for my/our use; for the Deschutes larger stake out loops, added guylines, for the Khufu, which is first gen more guylines and after the 3C zip failed I put in a 5C)
... they can take one hell of a beating given a strong pole and tied down well. They're all really light, especially for the provided space and protection.

Deschutes naked 380 g
Full inner (incl. floor) 320 g
Floor about 100 g
Plastic floor 40 g
Pole 150 g

Khufu naked 500 g
Full 2 person inner (incl. floor) 420 g
2 p Floor 210 g.
Pole(s) 150 or 312 g
Pole connector (when in use with two poles) 80 g

Shangri La 3 650 g
Full 2 person inner (incl. floor) 5 g
2 p Floor 210 g.
Pole 260 g or 320 g depending on conditions.

Stakes vary much, for the Deschutes 6 are the minimum, if I use the bike 5 would do too.
Khufu would go with a minimum of 4 stakes and the Shangri La with 6, but since we like camp spots with a view, we are mostly in exposed places, so nearly always go with a full set of stakes which can be anywhere from about 120 to about 500 g (snow).

Did I mention how much I like mids?
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Bearbonesnorm
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Re: Why are trekking pole shelters popular with cyclists?

Post by Bearbonesnorm »

Now, I've just this minute received an email asking about some poles from someone who doesn't ride but walks but it just shows how useful a pole can be :wink:
I ordered 2 custom bombproof carbon poles from you 2 years ago to go with my Trekkertent Stealth 1.5. They have a bit more than 2000km (don't know if it's relevant to talk about kms for tent poles), that's a lot of nights out since i'm not the fastest walker. They helped me catch clothes that went off the top of a tree during a storm, chase mad dogs running through french fields to protect their sheeps and believe me or not i also caught a fish with it once, well i think it came from a beer stream looking at how dizzy he was but still !
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