closing national parks, and imposing fines?

Talk about anything.

Moderators: Bearbonesnorm, Taylor, Chew

ton
Posts: 1315
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2015 9:53 am

closing national parks, and imposing fines?

Post by ton » Fri Apr 03, 2020 6:28 pm

If the national parks were to be closed (if this was possible). could the police start imposing fines to people from outside the area?

Lazarus
Posts: 1576
Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2013 10:49 am

Re: closing national parks, and imposing fines?

Post by Lazarus » Fri Apr 03, 2020 6:35 pm

of course and quite possibly a criminal offence - not looked at the law as I intend to obey it and stay local - must be at least 30 years since i did not spend an easter in the mountains to mark the start of summer biking season - only about half of these had hail at the top of helvelyn and at least one of them was almost warm . Its going to be a scorcher this year isnt it - still its only one year and it saves lives

On the bright side as you have had it you will be one of the first able to return to normality

redefined_cycles
Posts: 4365
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2016 8:19 am
Location: Dewsbury, West Yorkshire

Re: closing national parks, and imposing fines?

Post by redefined_cycles » Fri Apr 03, 2020 6:49 pm

Lazarus wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 6:35 pm
still its only one year and it saves lives
:-bd
:-bd
:-bd

User avatar
Bearbonesnorm
Posts: 18991
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 8:53 pm
Location: my own little world

Re: closing national parks, and imposing fines?

Post by Bearbonesnorm » Fri Apr 03, 2020 6:57 pm

If the national parks were to be closed
Is it something that's been mentioned or are we speculating? i'm not too convinced that it could be policed.
#corporate shill for hire

User avatar
Laurensdad
Posts: 176
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2015 4:46 pm
Location: Hampshire

Re: closing national parks, and imposing fines?

Post by Laurensdad » Fri Apr 03, 2020 7:03 pm

New Forest Car Parks are all locked up - this is after last weekend disobedience of the Social Distancing and Essential Travel rules.

The police had to tell people to go home and #staylocal.

What happens after this weekend if the ignorance and selfishness repeats itself we will have to wait and see.

:shock:
@philg1971 Instagram

Lazarus
Posts: 1576
Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2013 10:49 am

Re: closing national parks, and imposing fines?

Post by Lazarus » Fri Apr 03, 2020 7:05 pm

presumably road blocks and certification as in other countries

ton
Posts: 1315
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2015 9:53 am

Re: closing national parks, and imposing fines?

Post by ton » Fri Apr 03, 2020 7:13 pm

a friend in the dales mentioned it. and his wife works for the national trust.

i have been doing loads of local rides, most within 5 miles of home. managed 120 miles this week.

#staylocal

User avatar
Bearbonesnorm
Posts: 18991
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 8:53 pm
Location: my own little world

Re: closing national parks, and imposing fines?

Post by Bearbonesnorm » Fri Apr 03, 2020 7:28 pm

I can see Easter becoming an issue. Many folk will have taken the '3 week lock-down' as gospel and ignored the 'we'll then review it' and perhaps (wrongly) feel justified in wanting to go out as normal.

I also wonder of closing the NP will simply push people towards those places that are still lovely but aren't within the NP boundry?
#corporate shill for hire

User avatar
thenorthwind
Posts: 1050
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2016 6:07 pm
Location: Newcastle

Re: closing national parks, and imposing fines?

Post by thenorthwind » Fri Apr 03, 2020 10:07 pm

I don't think it's impossible we could see a stricter form of lockdown as in other countries, but don't see why it would be limited to National Parks.

If our National Parks were like in the US - tracts of "wilderness" with no permanent residents beyond rangers, it would be easy just to say they're off limits, but ours have communities just like any other area of the country.

Cheeky Monkey
Posts: 2644
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2011 1:48 pm
Location: Leeds ish
Contact:

Re: closing national parks, and imposing fines?

Post by Cheeky Monkey » Sat Apr 04, 2020 11:38 am

I'm doubtful there is a legal means to do so, I can't imagine it would be enforceable and sceptical that it's necessary or worthwhile.

I think a lot of car park closing is knee jerk reaction and possibly / probably unnecessary. I wouldn't know about bigger cities but locally (Leeds outskirts) I ponder if it really needed doing. From my limited experience (because I'm staying "local", WFH and spending time helping the kids homeschool themselves) I think the restrictions have been pretty effective.

What I have seen and grow increasingly despairing of is the mass pile-on via social media, probably more traditional media etc. Flip me what is it about people that they feel the need to "police" and go off on one? It's usually so utterly pointless and I imagine utterly ineffective.

Hey ho :|

User avatar
NorwayCalling
Posts: 450
Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2014 5:50 pm
Location: Stavanger, Norway / Cardiff, UK

Re: closing national parks, and imposing fines?

Post by NorwayCalling » Sat Apr 04, 2020 3:22 pm

Yes they can close them down...anyone remember foot and mouth, where all rights of way and access to agricultural land was banned.

The legislation is in place already
Image

Cheeky Monkey
Posts: 2644
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2011 1:48 pm
Location: Leeds ish
Contact:

Re: closing national parks, and imposing fines?

Post by Cheeky Monkey » Sat Apr 04, 2020 3:59 pm

NorwayCalling wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 3:22 pm
Yes they can close them down...anyone remember foot and mouth, where all rights of way and access to agricultural land was banned.

The legislation is in place already
Fair point re: F&M that some (pretty extensive) restrictions can be put in place. I guess it depends, a bit, on what you take "shutting" the national parks to mean, I imagined something bigger than just RoW. However, AFAIK F&M restrictions required specific statutes (i.e. no "normal" legislation exists that enables closure - just what I've picked up from IPROW). I did not know there was legislation in place for the current situation, what is it? Honestly interested :cool:

User avatar
Bearbonesnorm
Posts: 18991
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 8:53 pm
Location: my own little world

Re: closing national parks, and imposing fines?

Post by Bearbonesnorm » Sat Apr 04, 2020 4:17 pm

The only way I can see a closure being possible is to erect roadblocks on each and every road that enters / exists a national park and block every FP and BW that enters / exists. That's a hell of an undertaking and I imagine the threat of on the spot fines would perhaps be enough of a deterrent for any casual offenders?
#corporate shill for hire

Gregsie
Posts: 124
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 3:15 pm
Location: Just west of Chez.
Contact:

Re: closing national parks, and imposing fines?

Post by Gregsie » Sat Apr 04, 2020 4:36 pm

Had this conversation with a work colleague of mine who used to work for the Peak.

He was saying logistically a nightmare to do in the UK due to the number of roads into them and the relative easy of access. Also it would involve shutting some fairly major trunk roads across the pennines.

Problem is where do you draw the line. Places like Sheffield butt up to the park and are easily accessible without a car.

The Peak starts three miles up the road from me. I already feel a bit of guilt heading west and into the park even though it's so close. Guessing those of you that are still riding go further than 3 miles from home !

Think it's all about common sense. Feel that not only the risk is putting a strain on the NHS should the worse happen, but also it's infection control - how many gates and stiles are infected and how many locals are encountered thus transmitting the disease.

I'm choosing my routes carefully that have no gates, nothing stupid and not going out for longer out of the house for an hour or so. Finding I'm getting Corona-angst off road when I encounter someone so have been sticking mainly to quiet lanes and white roads with plenty of width. Haven't a clue if this is the right thing to do but it feels right for me.
Last edited by Gregsie on Sat Apr 04, 2020 5:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Powered by crumpets.

User avatar
Bearbonesnorm
Posts: 18991
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 8:53 pm
Location: my own little world

Re: closing national parks, and imposing fines?

Post by Bearbonesnorm » Sat Apr 04, 2020 4:57 pm

Think it's all about common sense. Feel that not only the risk is putting a strain on the NHS should the worse happen, but also it's infection control - how many gates and stiles are infected and how many locals are encountered thus transmitting the disease.
Uhm, we perhaps see the same 2 faces walk past here per week. These people still walk past but they've been joined by perhaps 4 or 5 other couples / families who you usually wouldn't see from one year to the next. I know for certain that one couple has travelled from their home in Derbyshire to their holiday home here twice in the last fortnight. If they do a lap of the forest then there's 3 gates which need to be opened / closed. All these people bar one have large gardens (at least half an acre) or land. I can only assume the same thing is happening elsewhere but on a much larger scale.
#corporate shill for hire

Chew
Posts: 2528
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2011 8:46 pm
Location: Halifax

Re: closing national parks, and imposing fines?

Post by Chew » Sat Apr 04, 2020 5:26 pm

If they seriously wanted people to stop moving about, they should be closing the motorway network to all but essential traffic.

That would be a lot easier and more effective than trying to shut a national park.
Yes I could still get there, but the extra time and hassle would but a lot of people off.

Cheeky Monkey
Posts: 2644
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2011 1:48 pm
Location: Leeds ish
Contact:

Re: closing national parks, and imposing fines?

Post by Cheeky Monkey » Sat Apr 04, 2020 5:31 pm

If you live next to the Peak why fret that reasonable exercise might include a bit of it? If you're shredding gnarr in the middle of nowhere that might be rather unwise and inconsiderate but otherwise I think it'd be safe to crack-on with a poodle for exercise.

I suspect all the apparent concern about gates etc is probably an over-reaction. There are many factors to consider for potential infection. One is the time the virus will be persistent (out in the open and exposed to the elements) but the second is how much viral load is transferred through contact i.e. transferring some virus might not be enough to infect you. Lastly, if you're also increasing your personal hygiene (hand washing and not touching your face etc) then risk is reduced again.

I'm not trying to belittle risks but I also think it's important to understand what they are likely to be in reality.

😎

EDIT - pootle, not poodle 🤣

User avatar
Bearbonesnorm
Posts: 18991
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 8:53 pm
Location: my own little world

Re: closing national parks, and imposing fines?

Post by Bearbonesnorm » Sat Apr 04, 2020 5:34 pm

Lastly, if you're also increasing your personal hygiene (hand washing and not touching your face etc)
See, it's always this sh1t that lets me down :wink:
If they seriously wanted people to stop moving about, they should be closing the motorway network to all but essential traffic.
Uhm, never considered that.
#corporate shill for hire

User avatar
ScotRoutes
Posts: 6218
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 9:56 am
Location: Cairngorms
Contact:

Re: closing national parks, and imposing fines?

Post by ScotRoutes » Sat Apr 04, 2020 5:37 pm

I live in a National Park - the largest in the UK - along with about 18,000 other folk. The main trunk road road runs through the park. I can't see how it would be even remotely possible to close it off. Policing all entry points would be absolutely impossible as there are hundreds (remembering we have open access here). The Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2004 does give the authorities power to rescind access temporarily via a Section 11 order but these are arduous to obtain, subject to a great deal of scrutiny and only cover a limited area. For example, the area around Nevis Range needs a new Section 11 order every year when the DH Championships are taking place. The park is also a working environment, even at the moment.

During F&M I was one of a number of park rangers (in the Pentland Hills) who had to put up signs "telling" the public that access was forbidden. It's a long story but I eventually fell out with the park authority about this as we were doing this with no legal basis whatsoever. Of course that was before the LR(S)A. Indeed, the responsible behaviour of the general public was instrumental in removing many access restrictions that had been put forward in the initial bill (especially when compared to some of the nonsense the land managers and owners were up to).

redefined_cycles
Posts: 4365
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2016 8:19 am
Location: Dewsbury, West Yorkshire

Re: closing national parks, and imposing fines?

Post by redefined_cycles » Sat Apr 04, 2020 6:11 pm

Anyways... cant eait til its all over...
Last edited by redefined_cycles on Sat Apr 04, 2020 7:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
summittoppler
Posts: 771
Joined: Sat Mar 23, 2013 10:27 am
Location: North Wales

Re: closing national parks, and imposing fines?

Post by summittoppler » Sat Apr 04, 2020 6:42 pm

Snowdonia has barriered it's car park off to try to stop folk getting up in the hills. I live a couple of miles from the 'border' of it and tbh as much as I'm itching to get back out there but no, I'm staying in. It'll still be there when this sh!te is over...

Roobell7
Posts: 174
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2017 7:39 pm
Location: Middle England

Re: closing national parks, and imposing fines?

Post by Roobell7 » Sat Apr 04, 2020 7:20 pm

Take a look overseas. Spain, France, Italy have managed it. Or come to Africa where enforcement can be a little more forceful :shock:

User avatar
whitestone
Posts: 6067
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2014 10:20 am
Location: Skipton(ish)
Contact:

Re: closing national parks, and imposing fines?

Post by whitestone » Sat Apr 04, 2020 7:22 pm

A pretty impractical thing to police/enforce. The nearest we've seen is the 2001 F&M outbreak but that wasn't the national parks being shut per se, just you weren't allowed off the road. We were living in Rosedale in the NYM at the time and it was all a bit weird. The dog didn't know what was going on as we couldn't take his regular walk behind the house onto the moors.

Fast forward to the present: We've a bridleway that runs down by the side of the house and garden and a footpath that crosses behind the house. We're about a km away from one village and 2km from the next. Most of the people I see walking or riding past are "regulars" but there's a few I've not seen before. Even so the numbers aren't particularly high, maybe ten all day today of which just two were "unknowns".

@Roobell77 - I'm not sure of the relative sizes of the police forces but the UK police have been cut back to the bone (I'm not a copper BTW). We don't have identity cards either (though the driving licence is as good as). The UK isn't quite as urbanised as France and Spain, plus we're a smaller sized country so more people are closer to the "attractions". I think the biggest brake on all of this will be peer pressure on social media.
Better weight than wisdom, a traveller cannot carry

redefined_cycles
Posts: 4365
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2016 8:19 am
Location: Dewsbury, West Yorkshire

Re: closing national parks, and imposing fines?

Post by redefined_cycles » Sat Apr 04, 2020 7:32 pm

whitestone wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 7:22 pm
Rosedale in the NYM
Rosedale you say Bob... is it just me or is that one of the hardest climb in the country (Asterton Bank behind Long Mynd notwithstanding)

User avatar
Jurassic
Posts: 603
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2015 10:46 am
Location: Helensburgh, Scotland.

Re: closing national parks, and imposing fines?

Post by Jurassic » Sat Apr 04, 2020 8:59 pm

I think what happens this weekend in the parts of England that are supposed to get nice weather will drive what happens next in terms of lockdown enforcement. If people flout the advice we've been given I think more robust enforcement will happen. The powers required are already there but they're not being used much (certainly in my area) yet. The recently introduced Corona virus legislation combined with existing laws provides plenty of scope for stopping and checking vehicles and people on foot (or bike) if needs be. I found this with a quick Google session.

" The government is therefore ensuring the police and other relevant authorities have the powers to enforce them where people do not comply.

If you leave your home or gather in public for any reason other than those specified, the police may:

instruct you to go home, leave an area or disperse
instruct you to take steps to stop your children breaking these rules if they have already done so
take you home – or arrest you – if you do not follow their instructions or where they deem it necessary
The police will act with discretion and common sense in applying these measures and we expect the public to act responsibly, staying at home in order to save lives.

However, if the police believe that you have broken these rules – or if you refuse to follow their instructions – a police officer may issue you with a fixed penalty notice for £60 (reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days). If you have already received a fixed penalty notice, the amount will increase to £120 and double on each further repeat offence.

The government will keep this under review and will increase the penalties if it becomes clear that this is necessary to ensure compliance."

Post Reply