Bearbonesnorm wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 9:19 ambut no one knows whether I've slept outside twice, ten times or twenty times in the last six weeks.

I'd hope Dee would know this fact

So get out on your bikes and enjoy it chaps as the chances of it causing further spread of the virus will be zero

the risk will only be zero if you can 100% guarantee you wont meet any other person or that you wont crash and require assistance. Neither of these can be guaranteed

I agree its probbly less risky than shopping, which is obviously essential, but its not zero risk to you or others

Lazarus wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 5:39 pm

So get out on your bikes and enjoy it chaps as the chances of it causing further spread of the virus will be zero

the risk will only be zero if you can 100% guarantee you wont meet any other person or that you wont crash and require assistance. Neither of these can be guaranteed

TBF, there's as much (maybe more) risk on a couple of "allowed" daily rides as there is in one that happens to be punctuated by an overnight stop.

dont disagree but its still not zero risk

this is why clear guidance was required as common sense suggest breaking the rules is not any more dangerous than adhering to them* - again if 1 does this no issue if everyone interprets them how they want then we have a problem


* eg meeting parent a for 20 minutes then parent b 30 minutes later is probably no more risky than just seeing them both and staying 2 m away

I would also contend meeting them both in their garden is less risky than you all walking to a public place to meet

basically the guidance is poor, incoherent , poorly expressed and therefore leads us all to interpret them ourselves and bizzarely breaking them may actually be safer and /or no less risky -its a mess basically

Jurassic wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 4:02 pm Imho the "it's okay to drive any distance to access the great outdoors" message is pretty irresponsible of the government. "It's okay to drive to access the great outdoors within a 50 mile radius of your home address" would have been far more sensible and respectful to the residents of areas of natural beauty, National Parks etc.
Cumbria has some of the worst infection figures in the UK with relatively few resources to manage them and now all of a sudden it's okay for anyone to go there and potentially burden the system even more? BoJo's appeal for common sense clearly doesn't apply to his own advice and guidance.

The "use your common sense" is fine imo, overwhelmingly people will do that and only a very small proportion will take the inference that you have in the bolded bit. ^

For all the hand-wringing, snobbery and media/social media scare stories, we've actually been very good at following the conditions of lockdown. Neil Ferguson said the SAGE models were based on a predicted compliance rate of 70%, whereas their data indicates actual compliance has been around 90%. There's no reason to think people are suddenly going to lose their common sense.

Just trying to think of ANY occasion that I thought that an overnight bivvy was a risk to myself or anyone else??
If I was to go to Dartmoor in winter then maybe but a Dorset field in May, apart from being run over by a tractor silageing at 5am I should be OK!

I am trying to think when a barbecue and a beer with friends is dangerous and i came up with this answer in the middle of a global pandemic. Its not normal right now .
The second point is that off road cycling is certainly more dangerous than sitting on the sofa watching tv and MTB is generally a hazardous activity for insurance purposes.
We are used to it and our skills and experience mitigate the risk but that does not mean its not there
Applying common sense has not quite reached a consensus i note

Lazarus wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 6:25 pm I am trying to think when a barbecue and a beer with friends is dangerous and i came up with this answer in the middle of a global pandemic. Its not normal right now .
The second point is that off road cycling is certainly more dangerous than sitting on the sofa watching tv and MTB is generally a hazardous activity for insurance purposes.
We are used to it and our skills and experience mitigate the risk but that does not mean its not there
Applying common sense has not quite reached a consensus i note

Are you suggesting we shouldn't be riding off road at all?

ScotRoutes wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 6:38 pm

Lazarus wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 6:25 pm I am trying to think when a barbecue and a beer with friends is dangerous and i came up with this answer in the middle of a global pandemic. Its not normal right now .
The second point is that off road cycling is certainly more dangerous than sitting on the sofa watching tv and MTB is generally a hazardous activity for insurance purposes.
We are used to it and our skills and experience mitigate the risk but that does not mean its not there
Applying common sense has not quite reached a consensus i note

Are you suggesting we shouldn't be riding off road at all?

I always thought - and actually still do after about 4 years of 80 mile round trip commuting on the almost-regular, which I've not done since this all kicked off - that off roading is many times safer than road riding. Only cos (most common sense folk) you'd ride to your limit and dont have the added risk of traffic and all that other sruff that goes with road riding (pot holes and gutters etc etc)...

At this moment in time I won't be wild camping locally.

I live on the outskirts of Liverpool, there is nowhere locally that isn't out of sight from the Police helicopter with it's heat seeking camera.

No I am saying its not risk free and riskier than not doing it and staying at home.

I can never quite decide what is worst road riding or off road but at least off road it will be my fault[probably]

My WRT-alike day 2 bivvy was in the corner of one of my own fields. Technically, it was OK for me to ride (36 miles) and sleep in a field. But how is that different from someone else doing it? Or me doing it and sleeping in a different field? Apart from feeling guilty, that is..

ScotRoutes wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 5:52 pm TBF, there's as much (maybe more) risk on a couple of "allowed" daily rides as there is in one that happens to be punctuated by an overnight stop.

How have you arrived at that conclusion?

MuddyPete wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 11:58 pm

ScotRoutes wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 5:52 pm TBF, there's as much (maybe more) risk on a couple of "allowed" daily rides as there is in one that happens to be punctuated by an overnight stop.

How have you arrived at that conclusion?

I'm much less likely to meet someone else late at night on the way to a bivvy and early morning on the way back from one than I am if I do two daytime rides. Plus, typically, I'd ride much more gentle stuff and at a more subdued rate if my bike is carrying overnight kit.

There is obviously no such thing as "zero" risk in life.
The Government cannot define every nuance of activity in our lives. The emphasis has moved now to us using our "common sense".
It might be of interest to know what the latest advice is from the British Mountaineering Council (BMC) - A governing body for rock climbing and hillwalking - arguably on a par with the risks of mountain biking and bikepacking. Here it is:

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/can-i-start-cl ... 1589352716

Here are some extracts for England (there is differing advice for Wales and a link to advice for Scotland):

Climbing and hill walking

- Scale back your ambitions: be cautious, choose objectives within your technical and physical limits to minimise the risk of accidents and injury.

- Avoid very popular areas: seek out less frequented venues, be flexible and have backup plans to avoid overcrowding.

- Where possible, stay local. Whilst this is not part of the government’s guidance, staying local will reduce the load on national parks and rural communities whilst they are sensitive to increased visitor numbers.

- Our interpretation of the guidance is that it does not appear to allow for overnight stays, and accommodation such as campsites and bunkhouses will not be available for some time, so people should plan for day trips only.

I was thinking if night fishing will be allowed , some fishing, carp for instance involves Bivvying out overnight as they pretty much don’t feed during the day, obviously the fisher people are asking the same questions.
I believe borris is going to clarify the situation with a must return to place of residence instruction.

Talking about place of residence, I see that now viewers and agents are allowed to come into your for-sale house again! How fooking insane is that? The house 'market' Govt donors have leaned on them as usual (it's not been a proper 'market' for 20 years of course - broken beyond repair and irreparably bent by Govt props and bungs).

So I can't visit and hug my granny who's at death's door but I can nose round some overpriced pile of bricks anywhere I like?

Cunning Reg plan: put my house up for sale then invite my mates round for a 'viewing'. Lots of drinks and snacks would obviously only be a courtesy gesture for a viewer....

Dunno why we're even bothering with our 'sleeping in a ditch' deliberations at all now.

RIP wrote: ↑Wed May 13, 2020 9:03 am The house 'market' Tory donors have leaned on them as usual (it's not been a proper 'market' for 20 years of course - broken beyond repair and irrepairably bent by Govt props and bungs).

Don’t get me started on how Thatcher destroyed the housing market by selling all the council houses, in the process eliminating reasonably rents for working class people who apparently needed putting back in their place anyway.

Just don’t otherwise I’ll be off on mines and the criminal justice bill as well, going to have another brew quickly.

Sorry Steve, I just had a bit of a Ben Elton moment there . Kettle-based distraction in progress here too .

Dunno why we're even bothering with our 'sleeping in a ditch' deliberations at all now.

Aye, after reading the BMC guidance, it would now seem that it's pretty much a free for all.

RIP wrote: ↑Wed May 13, 2020 9:17 am Kettle-based distraction in progress here too .

I had to double bag! Deep breathing helped as well

I believe borris is going to clarify the situation with a must return to place of residence instruction.

I await the clarification from the man who has used is it two or three places of residency so far and whose last hepful advice was so unclear even the cabinet ministers could not understand it and stay on message ?

@ stu the BMC seems to be saying be a bit more sensible than the advice allows - rather than a free for all.
advice to police
https://www.college.police.uk/What-we-d ... 130520.pdf
You can do excercise with someone else [only ONE] NOT from your household and 2m social distancing is non enforcable - a solo bivvy would be safer than that i assume but appears to be not allowed - though they have not said one way or the other [ and as its usually "illegal " anyway i cannot see it will get a green light in normal times never mind now
I would go with apply somecommon sense here rather than the rules
FWIW i think you can do the ride with someone else asmany times as you like with a diffferent person as long as its just one person at a time

RIP wrote: ↑Wed May 13, 2020 9:03 am Talking about place of residence, I see that now viewers and agents are allowed to come into your for-sale house again! How fooking insane is that?

So I can't visit and hug my granny who's at death's door but I can nose round some overpriced pile of bricks anywhere I like?

That's a very good point, Reg.
How can it be justifiable to allow potentially-infected strangers into my home, but not healthy friends or relatives?

Are you going to put it to the PM in person?

It’s chuffin ridiculous, have to disinfect the house after every visit

RIP wrote: ↑Wed May 13, 2020 9:03 am Talking about place of residence, I see that now viewers and agents are allowed to come into your for-sale house again! How fooking insane is that? The house 'market' Govt donors have leaned on them as usual (it's not been a proper 'market' for 20 years of course - broken beyond repair and irreparably bent by Govt props and bungs).

So I can't visit and hug my granny who's at death's door but I can nose round some overpriced pile of bricks anywhere I like?

Cunning Reg plan: put my house up for sale then invite my mates round for a 'viewing'. Lots of drinks and snacks would obviously only be a courtesy gesture for a viewer....

Dunno why we're even bothering with our 'sleeping in a ditch' deliberations at all now.

Think my response was very similar, but with more 'o's in the forking