If we close up for a bit...

Talk about anything.

Moderators: Bearbonesnorm, Taylor, Chew

Who will still go out for a bivvy ride?

I will
10
15%
I won’t
43
65%
Undecided
13
20%
 
Total votes: 66

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ScotRoutes
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Re: If we close up for a bit...

Post by ScotRoutes » Wed May 27, 2020 3:27 pm

sean_iow wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 2:51 pm
Is that copy and pasted word for word from the guidance? Very badly worded. "should" doesn't mean you have to ,only advised/hoped for but no consequences* if you don't. For example, if the mean you have to stick to routes you know it should have said "shall"
It can only say "shall" if it is written into law and no one is expecting new legislation as each Phase is unfurled.

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Jurassic
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Re: If we close up for a bit...

Post by Jurassic » Wed May 27, 2020 3:33 pm

I wonder if golfers can only drive five miles to waste a good walk? Can't be right that restrictions only apply to certain sports surely?

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Re: If we close up for a bit...

Post by ScotRoutes » Wed May 27, 2020 3:44 pm

I reckon 90% of Scots are "broadly" within 5 miles of a golf course :wink:

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Jurassic
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Re: If we close up for a bit...

Post by Jurassic » Wed May 27, 2020 3:52 pm

ScotRoutes wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 3:44 pm
I reckon 90% of Scots are "broadly" within 5 miles of a golf course :wink:
You're probably right but I wonder if they'll be content playing their local course after a couple of weeks? Dunno, golf isn't one of my interests but the cynic in me thinks that more "influential" people would tend to play golf so maybe they might be afforded extra privileges. :roll:

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Re: If we close up for a bit...

Post by Cheeky Monkey » Wed May 27, 2020 3:58 pm

sean_iow wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 2:51 pm
Is that copy and pasted word for word from the guidance? Very badly worded. "should" doesn't mean you have to ,only advised/hoped for but no consequences* if you don't. For example, if the mean you have to stick to routes you know it should have said "shall"

*Many years of working with construction contracts is where knowledge of this crucial legal difference comes from.
Construction contract type here too. I think guidance can only say "should" because it is "only" guidance. It can only say "shall" where that is what is written in law and more often does so by quoting the legislation (see CDM guidance). You don't have to follow guidance but if you deviate from it you have to be able to show there was good reason to and that what you did, when deviating, was as good or better than is in guidance. So in a court the hierarchy is law - guidance - best practice (highest to lowest).

There's also a difference between legislation and contracts. Contracts are something two parties enter into and negotiate (sometimes), so you can say shall wherever you absolutely want something doing.

That's enough of me trying to pretend I know what I'm talking about. Besides, there's always the Cummings approach :|

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Re: If we close up for a bit...

Post by sean_iow » Wed May 27, 2020 6:26 pm

Cheeky Monkey wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 3:58 pm
So in a court the hierarchy is law - guidance - best practice (highest to lowest).
This is the bit that I'm confused by, if it's not Law how can it be enforced in the courts? Otherwise were in a position where ministers can dream up anything they like and have the courts enforce it, which is not how I understand our legal system, and democracy to work.

As soon as the golf courses opened up down here they were packed. To be fair to them they were social distancing and only playing as a two ball but that meant they were spread out across the whole course. It was most disturbing for my ride, I had to keep stopping to avoid interfering with peoples shots, it was a much nicer place to ride when the golfers weren't there :lol:
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Re: If we close up for a bit...

Post by Chew » Wed May 27, 2020 6:34 pm

sean_iow wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 6:26 pm
This is the bit that I'm confused by, if it's not Law how can it be enforced in the courts? Otherwise were in a position where ministers can dream up anything they like and have the courts enforce it, which is not how I understand our legal system, and democracy to work.
It would be the same way as any other laws.

It would be a case that the guidance could be challenged in the courts and then the courts would decide what was “reasonable” and then case law would be based upon that, plus repeat depending upon which court it’s judged in.

Usually it’s a case if anyone can be bothered with challenged it?

It’s like when HMRC decide on what is eligible for taxation or not. They set out the guidance and then it went to court to decide if a Jaffa cake was a cake or a biscuit?

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Re: If we close up for a bit...

Post by ScotRoutes » Wed May 27, 2020 6:58 pm

Another example; the Land Reform (Scotland) Act is the legislation governing public access to land. It basically says that you can take access anywhere, but it must be "responsible". It dies not contain a comprehensive list of irresponsible actions.

In parallel, we have the Scottish Outdoor Access Code. That gives guidance and is considered the best advice.



The Highway Code uses "must" when referring to specific legislation and "should" when giving guidance. If you were involved in an collision doing something you shouldn't, then the blame would fall on you.

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Re: If we close up for a bit...

Post by sean_iow » Wed May 27, 2020 7:24 pm

Whilst I understand those examples, the emergency powers coronavirus act is written in a very black and white way, there's a list of reasons you can leave your home and that's it, no mention of reasonable, no other clauses, no mention at all of times, durations, locations, distances etc. It doesn't have much room for interpretation.

It's all academic as down here it seems to be a free for all now. I've seen the police patrolling the car parks, both officers in the same car, but they didn't bother to get out of thier car. The roads are as busy as ever and when I'm out the only person I see exercising alone is me, so no change there.
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Re: If we close up for a bit...

Post by ScotRoutes » Wed May 27, 2020 7:26 pm

no mention at all of times, durations, locations, distances etc
That leaves it completely open to interpretation.

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Re: If we close up for a bit...

Post by Jurassic » Wed May 27, 2020 9:37 pm

ScotRoutes wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 7:26 pm
no mention at all of times, durations, locations, distances etc
That leaves it completely open to interpretation.
^This. Under the Health Protection Regulations you can be prosecuted for being outside without reasonable excuse. What constitutes a reasonable excuse is open to interpretation and is likely to be influenced by the guidance issued by government. The vast majority of people would be likely to accept a Fixed Penalty Notice if they're challenged rather than opting to go to court (which entails extra costs, stigma etc) but if a case does go to court that's when all the wheeling and dealing regarding "reasonable excuse" starts and in reality reasonable excuse is just somebody's opinion and interpretation. This opinion can also be challenged by appeal and taken to a higher court up to the point when you reach the highest court in the land (or pre Brexit even the European Court).

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Re: If we close up for a bit...

Post by FLV » Fri May 29, 2020 12:26 pm

Genuine question alert...

My eldest is at university in Wales.
He's been there since before the lockdown and had obviously stayed in and followed the rules. He's due to be out of his house by next weekend.
I would like to drive down and pick him up, rather than send him via several trains (I havn't checked which are and are not running).

Is there actually any issue with me doing so, or will I be arrested on the border and flogged?

If he used public transport, he would be coming to my house anyway so will become part of my household from then.
As a matter of point, he is doing a 14 day isolation prior to me collecting him (no symptoms, just being cautious)

This is ok right? It 'feels' ok.


I think for the first time I am not sure of the actual rules with something that directly effects me.

Edit: this is the closest I can find in the Welsh rules
My son or daughter has left belongings in their student accommodation, which now needs to be vacated. Can we travel there to get them?
If this can’t be postponed and is required to comply with the terms of the accommodation agreement it would be a reasonable excuse.

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Re: If we close up for a bit...

Post by voodoo_simon » Fri May 29, 2020 12:36 pm

I’m pretty sure we’re not allowed to cross the border Dave, Wales has a 5 mile travel restriction in place unless you’re going to work or food shopping*

I’d call the local police down that way and explain, they may be able to offer some help (I’d say he’s got too much to carry on the train) or permission?

*living on the border, I forget which rules are for which place, so double check

Edit - just saw your edit, I’d travel down on those terms. No way when I was at Uni I would be able to get home via train unless it was just a weekend visit

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Re: If we close up for a bit...

Post by Bearbonesnorm » Fri May 29, 2020 12:39 pm

I think all you can do is try it Dave. You might get a fine or you might not.
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Re: If we close up for a bit...

Post by Jurassic » Fri May 29, 2020 12:45 pm

FLV wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 12:26 pm
Genuine question alert...

My eldest is at university in Wales.
He's been there since before the lockdown and had obviously stayed in and followed the rules. He's due to be out of his house by next weekend.
I would like to drive down and pick him up, rather than send him via several trains (I havn't checked which are and are not running).

Is there actually any issue with me doing so, or will I be arrested on the border and flogged?

If he used public transport, he would be coming to my house anyway so will become part of my household from then.
As a matter of point, he is doing a 14 day isolation prior to me collecting him (no symptoms, just being cautious)

This is ok right? It 'feels' ok.


I think for the first time I am not sure of the actual rules with something that directly effects me.
I'd say that this is absolutely fine. There may be an argument that you should all self isolate as a precaution once you and your son get home (but if he's been self isolating prior to you picking him up as you say then maybe not). You're probably pretty unlikely to be stopped anyway and to my mind if you are then you definitely have reasonable excuse to be making the trip.
Last edited by Jurassic on Fri May 29, 2020 1:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: If we close up for a bit...

Post by FLV » Fri May 29, 2020 12:52 pm

voodoo_simon wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 12:36 pm

Edit - just saw your edit, I’d travel down on those terms. No way when I was at Uni I would be able to get home via train unless it was just a weekend visit
His accommodation is finished and he needs to move all his stuff yeah.
The only other option is to push back on the landlords (hes in a house, not halls) to say he cant currently get back (but he can really via me)

It feels reasonable.

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Re: If we close up for a bit...

Post by Chew » Fri May 29, 2020 12:56 pm

FLV wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 12:26 pm
This is ok right? It 'feels' ok.
Just do it Dave

The guidance is that generic that no-one really has a clue what we should be doing, so just do what you feel is right.

Dont know what its like in other areas, but up here i've not heard about anybody being stopped.
As a precaution i'd print out some documents saying he's at a certain address and his tenancy ends on a certain date, pick a route that minimises time in Wales, and then drive like a little old lady as not to attract any attention :wink:

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Re: If we close up for a bit...

Post by voodoo_simon » Fri May 29, 2020 12:57 pm

FLV wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 12:52 pm
voodoo_simon wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 12:36 pm

Edit - just saw your edit, I’d travel down on those terms. No way when I was at Uni I would be able to get home via train unless it was just a weekend visit
His accommodation is finished and he needs to move all his stuff yeah.
The only other option is to push back on the landlords (hes in a house, not halls) to say he cant currently get back (but he can really via me)

It feels reasonable.
Sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

If you can carry something from his uni, like a headed paper (anything) just to prove that’s where you’re going, it may be helpful?

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Re: If we close up for a bit...

Post by FLV » Fri May 29, 2020 1:03 pm

Its a week on Sat so into June. I'll report back but i'm going to go.
Cheers

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Re: If we close up for a bit...

Post by RIP » Fri May 29, 2020 1:13 pm

Sorry to deflect from your question F (although sounds sorted now) but what's the situ with the IoW tracing application Sean? They've gone rather quiet about it. I read elsewhere 'they know where all our phones are anyway with standard gps/location so why not just use those'. Presumably a good reason not able to but am interested in that too.
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Re: If we close up for a bit...

Post by Bearbonesnorm » Fri May 29, 2020 1:30 pm

Dont know what its like in other areas, but up here i've not heard about anybody being stopped.
Forces here seem pretty keen on stopping / fining. Remember, things are still different here to England. However, it does sound like a valid and reasonable excuse, so as long as you don't get an arsey copper I imagine you'll be fine.
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Re: If we close up for a bit...

Post by Jurassic » Fri May 29, 2020 1:33 pm

Bearbonesnorm wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 1:30 pm
Dont know what its like in other areas, but up here i've not heard about anybody being stopped.
Forces here seem pretty keen on stopping / fining. Remember, things are still different here to England. However, it does sound like a valid and reasonable excuse, so as long as you don't get an arsey copper I imagine you'll be fine.
You could just say you were following your instinct, that seems to work! :grin:

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Re: If we close up for a bit...

Post by Chew » Fri May 29, 2020 1:45 pm

RIP wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 1:13 pm
what's the situ with the IoW tracing application. They've gone rather quiet about it.
I think the silence is due to it not going very well.
Issues with the app itself, either not being secure or not working on the large number of phones available.
Also I dont think uptake was particularly large enough for it to have a real benefit.

I read elsewhere 'they know where all our phones are anyway with standard gps/location so why not just use those'. Presumably a good reason not able to but am interested in that too.
One is accuracy, as most gps units are only accurate to a couple of meters.
GPS doesnt work well indoors, which is where most of the transmission risk is.
The other is security. Do you want to tell the Government where you are 24/7*?


In many ways I cant see contact tracing being effective without it.
The current manual system relies on you telling them of everyone you've been in contact with.
Now, if you knew the person you'd hope you'd be in contact with them personally to tell then to get tested.

Its that random person who has it who you came into contact with at the shops/bus stop. Without you both using some form of electronic mechanism system you'll never be able to get in contact with them.



*its generally easy to find out anyway, but unless you went down an East Germany police state option and make it mandatory, lots of people wont download the app.

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Re: If we close up for a bit...

Post by sean_iow » Fri May 29, 2020 2:56 pm

RIP wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 1:13 pm
what's the situ with the IoW tracing application Sean?
I've don't know of anyone who's been alerted that they've been in close contact with anyone who's subsequently tested positive, but it was unlikely anyone would.

If we take the population of the Island....

then deduct everyone who's phone has too old an operating system to work,
then deduct all the Islanders who are not going out, the old, at risk groups - they wont install it as there's no point
then deduct everyone who doesn't trust that the gov't isn't going to use the data for other purposes

That's quite a few now off the list of potential users,

The information says it doesn't track your location, but when you install the andriod version it requires the gps to be on, so now from the list deduct everyone who did trust the gov't but are now suspicious as it seems to be different to you've been told. Also, if it needs the gps to work then how does it work indoors like in a supermarket which is where you're most likely to come into contact with other people in close proximity?

As you can see once all of the above are removed from the number of us who live here there's not many left to use it. Add in they have to remember to put bluetooth/gps on when they go out. Out of the handful of people who have it working, one of them needs to test positive and by chance have been close to one of the other few with it working, so it's hardly surprising I don't know of any alerts.
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Re: If we close up for a bit...

Post by RIP » Fri May 29, 2020 3:40 pm

Ta. As suspected then. Sigh!
"There comes a time in your life Ponsonby, when you think: 'My God, I'm two-thirds of the way to the grave and what have I done?" - RIP

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