If we close up for a bit...

Talk about anything.

Moderators: Bearbonesnorm, Taylor, Chew

Who will still go out for a bivvy ride?

I will
10
15%
I won’t
43
65%
Undecided
13
20%
 
Total votes: 66

voodoo_simon
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Re: If we close up for a bit...

Post by voodoo_simon » Sun May 10, 2020 8:46 pm

Chew wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 8:32 pm
I can see this leading to a lot of aggravation between people travelling and locals living within the National Parks and beauty spots next weekend :???:
This!

Especially when all the Welsh and Scots come over to England to enjoy our national parks :wink: Think a lot of Englanders won’t realise that Wales and Scotland have different approaches and so won’t be able to visit parts.

Which leads me to ask, why can’t the three governments just agree on one approach? Would surely make it easier for everyone to understand

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sean_iow
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Re: If we close up for a bit...

Post by sean_iow » Sun May 10, 2020 8:47 pm

So the change is we (England) can exercise for as long as we want, even thought the existing law doesn't specify how long we can exercise now :???:

So is the change that there's no change, no wonder people are confused.
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htrider
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Re: If we close up for a bit...

Post by htrider » Sun May 10, 2020 9:10 pm

voodoo_simon wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 8:46 pm
Which leads me to ask, why can’t the three governments just agree on one approach? Would surely make it easier for everyone to understand
Hollow laughter.... Lets not kid ourselves, this is as much about political point scoring as having any meaningful effect on managing the virus outbreak.

It appears in Scotland we can go out more than once now...... I can't imagine the govt is ever going to announce "all you walkers and cyclists can now go back to bivvying out" so its going to be down to individuals to decide whats in or out.

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ScotRoutes
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Re: If we close up for a bit...

Post by ScotRoutes » Sun May 10, 2020 9:41 pm

voodoo_simon wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 8:46 pm
Which leads me to ask, why can’t the three governments just agree on one approach? Would surely make it easier for everyone to understand
Four governments. Three have basically the same message, one has a different message.

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RIP
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Re: If we close up for a bit...

Post by RIP » Sun May 10, 2020 9:50 pm

voodoo_simon wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 8:46 pm

Especially when all the Welsh and Scots come over to England to enjoy our national parks :wink: Think a lot of Englanders won’t realise that Wales and Scotland have different approaches and so won’t be able to visit parts.
As I read it, Wales still carry on as they are, so they can't travel to England to take advantage of our supposed new freedoms.... Sorry Stu..... And in the same vein, people dwelling in England can travel to the Welsh border then bump into a invisible barrier and have to turn round back into England...

Yep, confusion will reign no doubt.

I'm not saying I'm going to, but the English change to "exercise as long as you like" presumably means you'll need to stop and "rest", so could mean a bivvy stop..... hmmm...
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Jurassic
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Re: If we close up for a bit...

Post by Jurassic » Sun May 10, 2020 11:20 pm

I've heard mention of a 50 page document being published tomorrow detailing what is and isn't to be permitted. Apparently it makes specific mention of the fact that while you can exercise as much as you like you must return home afterwards and must not remain out. Truth or bullsh*t? We'll know tomorrow....... Certainly things seem clearer for us in Scotland (and N. Ireland and Wales).
Last edited by Jurassic on Mon May 11, 2020 12:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

wriggles
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Re: If we close up for a bit...

Post by wriggles » Mon May 11, 2020 12:12 am

Look its all very clear and simple. Matt Lucas has kindly summarised what Boris was saying......

https://youtu.be/N8DuyMihnjE

redefined_cycles
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Re: If we close up for a bit...

Post by redefined_cycles » Mon May 11, 2020 5:31 am

Not sure if it'll help to guide anyone's moral compass (edit: to remove some nasty remarks about Boris and PM of India regards their prejudism/racism) but the hospital I'm sat in just now. Won't mention its name to ensure good confidentiality is maintained. They have 6 matrons/senior management diagnosed Covid... 1 ICU lead nurse... 1 ICU consultant (edit: to add that both amazing in my experience of visiting there to help over past 6 years)off currently and another just returned back thankfully after a 10 day stint off (edit: to add, he's amazing too, plus he just bought a Reynolds 531 Woodrup in mint condition - I checked all the bearings and it includes original Mavic wheels from the 60s/70s - for £200 and rides it in so extra thumbs up).. 1 nurse intubated with it.. another nurse/healthcare staff thats been discharged from the ICU a couple weeks ago after a 3 week stint on the ventilators.. 1 other hospital staff (I think we works in the estates or domestics team) member thats glued to the ventilator and currently looks on the brink of death...

There's a wild frenzy (I've been here a number of times before ans its the best socially distanced staff group I've seen) to increase the capacity/ability to socially distance even better and this morning they'll be staggering the finishing times so everyones not walking down the corridor at similar/same timings!

Personally, IMO - (edit: this bit removed cos it's just MO and could be classed as wreckless by some BBC goers :-bd )...
Last edited by redefined_cycles on Mon May 11, 2020 9:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Jurassic
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Re: If we close up for a bit...

Post by Jurassic » Mon May 11, 2020 7:07 am

Kudos to you and everyone continuing to fight the good fight Shaf.
I have a friend who's an ITU nurse and he's getting really upset about all the talk of relaxing lock down as he's seen first hand what happens when the number of Covid cases is high and he fears that's where we're heading all over again.
I'm a key worker but what I do is nothing compared to those working in healthcare.

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sean_iow
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Re: If we close up for a bit...

Post by sean_iow » Mon May 11, 2020 7:15 am

Jurassic wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 11:20 pm
I've heard mention of a 50 page document being published tomorrow detailing what is and isn't to be permitted.
I'm not an expert, but unless they revise the Act they passed which brought in the restrictions then surely what is legal to do is unchanged?

They can produce all the guidance they like and have as many press conferences but the Law is defined in the Act that was passed with the emergency powers etc.

This is what caused the confusion as what the police were enforcing isn't what the law stated. It says you may leave your house for exercise but doesn't state any restrictions on the duration, location or number of times. This once a day for an hour was just the advice during one of the press conferences. If they'd wanted it to be once a day it wouldn't have been hard to put that in Law, well maybe too tricky for them to manage?

Because the once-a-day has been repeated so many times on the TV the general public think this is law, they just take it at face value.

I've only been out once a day exercising and not even close to every day. But I also use my bike to run errands for my elderly mother. The old woman across the road asked me where I was going once when she saw me leaving on the bike for the second time in the same day. The repeating of it now has the public policing it for them :roll:

Jane works in Covid 19 research, here at least we're not passed the peak. What we need is the original lock-down enforced not relaxing. The roads are busy again with cars with multiple occupants, the supermarket had whole families in it when I went last week, I've seen groups of kids all meeting up in the local area, groups of dog walkers stood next to each other chatting, they all seem to have forgotten about distancing and over the weeks just slipped back into normal behaviour.
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jameso
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Re: If we close up for a bit...

Post by jameso » Mon May 11, 2020 7:32 am

I've heard mention of a 50 page document being published tomorrow detailing what is and isn't to be permitted.
I expect a lot of people are already assuming this is 'relaxation' of lockdown, the papers set that up and Johnson's removed the Stay At Home bit so there it is. The Tories are just responding to pressure from businesses I expect. I might do a longer ride now and again on roads where I'm generally away from people but on the basis of the 'if we all do what I do' test, I still think the weekend away bivi trip is a way off (in terms of what I wanted to do / where I wanted to go anyway). Nothing's really changed, the infection rates may be lower but the there's nothing to prevent it all taking off again.

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Jurassic
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Re: If we close up for a bit...

Post by Jurassic » Mon May 11, 2020 7:43 am

jameso wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 7:32 am


Nothing's really changed, the infection rates may be lower but the there's nothing to prevent it all taking off again.
This is exactly right and what so many people seem to be missing. We're nowhere near the much quoted herd immunity and there's no sign of a vaccine or an effective treatment and yet all the press have been banging on about for weeks is an exit strategy. It's almost more scary than it was back in February when all this was looming on the horizon.

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Re: If we close up for a bit...

Post by jameso » Mon May 11, 2020 8:11 am

We're nowhere near the much quoted herd immunity
The thing that they're not sure will even happen based on re-infections of recovered people? I hope it is possible but looking at the rate of change currently (slow), I agree, I don't see how things can change much or we're not at risk of a real problem this winter. General risk of catching it while out and about now is lower, I expect? So maybe OK to do pointless shopping or go to that BBQ party that's not recommend but like the VE Day party they had over the road last week... and 'if we all do what I do' ... it's back to mid-late March levels.

And I know I'm cynical when it comes to the Tories but their ability to get testing and tracing up and running to enable a safe relaxation? Big ? An app that raises too many questions and a recent PPE procurement track record that would have got me fired as a Product Manager, if I'd bought that much test-failing junk and paid up front for it. Hard to be confident.

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sean_iow
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Re: If we close up for a bit...

Post by sean_iow » Mon May 11, 2020 8:45 am

jameso wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 8:11 am
An app that raises too many questions
The app requires andriod 8 or higher, so doesn't run on my phone and that's only 2 years old so that's not going to help. Also, on Android the app requires the gps to be on (I'm in the test area) so if that's the case and it uses the gps then it won't work indoors? If it doesn't use the gps then why does it have to be on?

People here got all excited about being the test area for the app as if having it on your phone somehow protects you from the virus :???: but it relies on rapid testing of people who think they have symptoms. The other week the testing station on the Island was late opening as the staff missed the ferry :roll:
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jameso
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Re: If we close up for a bit...

Post by jameso » Mon May 11, 2020 9:10 am

^ does the app also need bluetooth for other app user proximity sensing? Or just GPS for android? I don't know about the details or how effective it is - I read about who got the contract to make the app and that's all I wanted to know. I'm aware that I'm being played by the divide-and-blame tactics here. They know there's a 50-50 split on who will and won't use an app that was so obviously going to be discussed widely in the media re it's provenance. "ah well the virus peaked again because those lefties didn't use the app" .. etc. Lots of micro-blame discussion means less focus on the general lack of leadership on this.

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sean_iow
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Re: If we close up for a bit...

Post by sean_iow » Mon May 11, 2020 9:23 am

You have to have bluetooth on as well. All the information that we had said it didn't record your location but then it requires the gps on. I've no idea how/if it works.

The app is a good idea but only if it's functional and enough people trust it to install it. If it doen't work indoors (needs the gps) then is wont work in supermarkets which is the place most of us will come into proximity with other people.

I also think the development version should have extra features to enable them to evaluate it. Currently it (allegedly) only sends any information back to the server if you report symptoms. If I was designing it I would get it to ask the user each morning if the previous day they had been out of the house/been to the supermarket/been in busy locations/passes people whilst out. I'd then have the app report the number of other apps it had got a ping off, not the details just the number of interactions. Otherwise how does the developer know it's working? Has it not connected with other phones because you didn't see anyone or because it's not working as intended?

The current plan as far as I can tell is to trial it here, try the contact tracing but if numbers of infections don't fall it's not working. As well as this approach requiring people to get the infection to know if the app works it also relies on other factors not affecting the rate of infection.
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jameso
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Re: If we close up for a bit...

Post by jameso » Mon May 11, 2020 9:50 am

I've no idea how/if it works.
Oh I'm sure it works, for the intent of the developers. What that intent might be goes into tinfoil hat territory though :grin:
All in all it must be a logistical nightmare to get something like that working with tracing + testing to back it up, in any way that would be effective. There's been ~ 2 months already to demonstrate an ability there.
Last edited by jameso on Mon May 11, 2020 9:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

redefined_cycles
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Re: If we close up for a bit...

Post by redefined_cycles » Mon May 11, 2020 9:52 am

I know I'm cynical when it comes to the Tories but their ability to get testing and tracing up and running to enable a safe relaxation? Big ? An app that raises too many questions and a recent PPE procurement
I'm not sure thats the junk I was wearing tonight. But I went through at least 5 gloves whilst working with a '41 days in' gent... Each of them gloves ripped. Luckily the ones underneath were still intact. Utter tripe and your comment might explain it!

boxelder
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Re: If we close up for a bit...

Post by boxelder » Mon May 11, 2020 10:00 am

So the change is we (England) can exercise for as long as we want, even thought the existing law doesn't specify how long we can exercise now :???:
the change is no longer "once a day". There was never a time limit, as such (beyond Gove's 1 hour), but it was once a day. It can now be 2 or 3 (or more) per day.
I reckon those who felt they needed lots of exercise were doing it anyway and the change will just make others think it's OK to be out and about.

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Bearbonesnorm
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Re: If we close up for a bit...

Post by Bearbonesnorm » Mon May 11, 2020 10:23 am

I don't have a phone. Am I immune now? :wink:
#corporate shill for hire

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PaulB2
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Re: If we close up for a bit...

Post by PaulB2 » Mon May 11, 2020 10:27 am

The cynic in me says that they original herd immunity plan to preserve the economy never really went away. It just got unpopular with the general populace for a while so they hid it behind some very wishy washy guidance that was a lot more restrictive than the actual law. After 6 weeks of that they’re just going a step further back towards the original plan.

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Re: If we close up for a bit...

Post by PaulB2 » Mon May 11, 2020 10:30 am

Bearbonesnorm wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 10:23 am
I don't have a phone. Am I immune now? :wink:
You’re also immune if you have an iPhone or a pixel due to their privacy restrictions

Landslide
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Re: If we close up for a bit...

Post by Landslide » Mon May 11, 2020 10:30 am

Bearbonesnorm wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 10:23 am
I don't have a phone. Am I immune now? :wink:
Only from the 5G strain.

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sean_iow
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Re: If we close up for a bit...

Post by sean_iow » Mon May 11, 2020 10:36 am

boxelder wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 10:00 am
the change is no longer "once a day". There was never a time limit, as such (beyond Gove's 1 hour), but it was once a day. It can now be 2 or 3 (or more) per day.
But that's not the case is it? The Law specified the justifications for leaving your home, shopping for essential supplies, to get medical assistance, exercise etc. But it never specified the number of times you could do this. The 'once a day' bit was just a remark at one of the daily briefings, hence the confusion.

Edit, just checked and the once a day is also in the guidance notes, but here's the wording of the Act

(5) In paragraph (4), a reasonable excuse includes the need—

(a)to obtain basic necessities, including food and medical supplies for those in the same household (including any pets or animals in the household) or for a vulnerable person and supplies for the essential upkeep, maintenance and functioning of the household or the household of a vulnerable person, or to obtain money,

(b)to take exercise, either alone or with other members of their household,

(c)to seek medical assistance, including to access any of the services referred to in paragraph 37 or 38 of schedule 1,

(d)to provide care or assistance to a vulnerable person, including to provide emergency assistance,

(e)to donate blood,

(f)to travel for the purposes of work or to provide voluntary or charitable services, where it is not reasonably possible for that person to work, or to provide those services, from the place where they are living,


There are more reasons, but I can find no mention of the 'once a day'. I'm not suggesting we should all head out multiple times, just pointing out that there was no restriction on the number of times. And as I said previously, to change the restrictions requires the Act to be amended, not just Boris scribbling on an envelope. The current laws stay in place until the Act is either revoked or amended.
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Dave Barter
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Re: If we close up for a bit...

Post by Dave Barter » Mon May 11, 2020 11:31 am

Bearbonesnorm wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 10:23 am
I don't have a phone. Am I immune now? :wink:
You do. Dee texted me in Italy to remind you to tell her you were still alive ;-)
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