Bike for commute and bikepacking - a hybrid?

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nagasaki45
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Bike for commute and bikepacking - a hybrid?

Post by nagasaki45 »

Hi all,

I'm new to the forum and so far it looks like a super valuable resource. So thanks everybody for sharing their knowledge :-)

I'm looking for a new bike and need some advice. Yep, another noob question. It's going to be my only bike. I plan to use it for my daily commute (~5km) and general city riding in London. In addition, would like to go out of the city on weekends, mainly off-road. I expect a few 1-3 nights and one ~10 nights trips this summer.

Over the past year I was riding a 2009 Kona Jake with 35 tyres, cantilever brakes, and set up as 1x10 with 42t at the front and 11-32 at the back. For the city it's great, and many off-road days out + 2 overnighters on it were super fun! But I would like something with clearance for wider tyres, lower gearing, and disk brakes.

My general idea for the new bike is something like this:
- Rigid 29er.
- ~£500, ideally 2nd hand. I can stretch the budget but don't want something too bling, as it will get nicked super quickly in London.
- Flat bars, because although I like riding on the hoods, I never use the drops, and it seems that a flat bar bikes are cheaper and easier to upgrade.
- I generally like the geometry of my current bike and would like something similar, and slightly more upright: short chainstay, short-mid trail (70-80).
- Mounting points for bottle cages on the fork. Below the down tube will be nice to have. Ideally it should also take a rack.
- Disk brakes. I don't have a strong preference for hydraulic or cable at the moment. Tried a cheap hydraulic once and they were amazing. Will probably start with whatever is on the bike and will go from there.
- Clearance for ~2" tyres.
- One by with at least 11-42 cassette. Now one of the main limitations: ~38t chainring. Looks like going towards MTB territory means 30-32t chainrings. I regularly use my highest gear on my current bike. Don't mind losing the top gear, but prefer not to lose 2 or more of them. I don't really mind the number of gears though. The range is what's important for me.

Bikes I was thinking about:
- Surly bridge club. Looks pretty much in the direction I'm looking for. Although quite expensive.
- Breezer radar cafe. The closest in terms of specs, but I'm not sure about the geometry. Really long chainstay. Maybe I'm just too picky? Also, no chance for 2nd hand and new ones are ~£750. I can stretch the budget to get it though.
- Pinnacle ramin / planet x bootzipper / alpkit sonder frontier. All of these look very interesting. More on the MTB side than I would like, so will probably try to swap the chainring to larger one and get narrower tyres for daily use.

Another option is an upgraded hybrid. After all, this is what I'm after, isn't it? A hybrid between a city bike and a bikepacking bike? There are plenty of pinnacle lithiums w/ disc brakes and clearance for 2.2" tyres on the 2nd hand market. The geometry seems about right as well. Upgrading to SLX and 38t at the front should cost ~£120 (without replacing the crankset). A fork with mounts should add ~£50. All together it's <£400. Does is sound like a good idea?

So, overall, as you can see, a very confused person here, trying to bash together one bike to do it all. Would like to hear your opinions.

Thanks a lot,
Tom
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Re: Bike for commute and bikepacking - a hybrid?

Post by lune ranger »

Hi. There’s a load of bikes out there that will suit your needs/spec. The big hurdle is probably going to be finding one, even used, for <£500
Genesis Vagabond
Sonder Camino
Salsa Fargo
These spring to mind but are usually selling for more than £500.
In London or any other city for that matter i’d not want to use my main bike as a get around/commuter unless I knew I had totally secure parking.
I’d be looking at a single speed beater for town and keep my nice bike for riding properly.
I usually get my bikes and most components second hand. I most often buy a frame rather than a bike and swap over components as I go. With the right knowledge this can make things cheaper.
If you are going through hell, keep going.
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nagasaki45
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Re: Bike for commute and bikepacking - a hybrid?

Post by nagasaki45 »

Thanks lune ranger for the suggestions! I think the salsa fargo is way out of budget but the other two are quite relevant.

Regarding having two bikes, one for commute / city rides and one for bikepacking. It sounds great but living in a shared flat I don't have enough room for 2 bikes. Even if I could, the bikes won't be stored in a very secure place anyway. This is half of the reason for a relatively cheap bike, to make it less attractive to thieves. The other half is obviously the price itself :-)
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Re: Bike for commute and bikepacking - a hybrid?

Post by lune ranger »

I lived in a flat in Sheffield: commute bike in the hall. Road bike artfully on the wall. MTB under the bed.... :-bd
If you are going through hell, keep going.
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Re: Bike for commute and bikepacking - a hybrid?

Post by Lazarus »

A fork with mounts should add ~£50
Jubilee clips or Cable ties are a much cheaper and easier way of mounting small racks on your bike

In terms of bike you are either looking at a rigid MTB type or some version of monster cross

Given your commute is so short i would pick a bike for bikepacking and just tolerate it on the commute - ASSUMING YOU HAVE SECURE STORAGE FOR IT

If you dont then i would get an ancient drop bar bile and paint it to render it un nickable - though it wont stop vandalism
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Re: Bike for commute and bikepacking - a hybrid?

Post by jameso »

A fork with mounts should add ~£50
Jubilee clips or Cable ties are a much cheaper and easier way of mounting small racks on your bike
- OK in places but far less safe on a taper blade fork. Slip>rotate>jammed front wheel...

FWIW the Lithium was designed with touring and bikepacking in mind. It won't take the bigger 2.25+ tyres that work well for loaded off-roading on rough ground but for everything else (or a bit of the rough stuff among other things) it'll be grand. No fork mounts though, but will take a pannier. Or, use one clamp-on mount and the other on the fork will prevent rotation.
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Re: Bike for commute and bikepacking - a hybrid?

Post by whitestone »

For gearing it's worth using the calculator at http://gear-calculator.com/ to figure out what range of gears any particular setup will give you. You can compare setups as well - a lot easier if you keep the same wheelsize between the two.

1x12 but also 1x11 at a cheaper price point can give you most of the range of a 2x setup. Something like the Sunrace 11-50t cassette for example along with Shimano SLX mech and shifter would be fine. There will be some compromises though. There's no reason other than chainstay clearance why you couldn't fit something like a 36T chainring that would give you 36-11 (ratio of 3.27) as your biggest gear and 36-50 (ratio of 0.72) as your smallest. That compares with your current range of 3.81 to 1.31. 1.31 is a massive ratio for your lowest gear, with a 36T chainring it's roughly a 28T cog so on the Sunrace cassette you'd have another three gears to go. Going to 38T at the front would shift the gearing up by about a gear so something like two extra at the bottom end but only losing two at the top.

Here's a thought about tyres/wheels. See if you can find a frame that takes Road Plus wheels - basically 650b with 47mm tyres. Those would handle the off-road. A second cheap set of 700c could be swapped in for your commute and road duties. (or do it the other way round) You are sort of getting two bikes for one and don't need the space for storing two bikes just some room for another pair of wheels.
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Re: Bike for commute and bikepacking - a hybrid?

Post by ScotRoutes »

The good news is that "gravel" bikes are all the rage for bikepacking now and a hybrid is really just a gravel bike with flat bars. That means you are going to see lots of reports and videos of suitable routes.

As regards spending money, I'd focus on obtaining the lightest, most compact kit you can. Once you've cut the weight and bulk, your choice of bike is much wider.
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Re: Bike for commute and bikepacking - a hybrid?

Post by jameso »

Here's a thought about tyres/wheels. See if you can find a frame that takes Road Plus wheels - basically 650b with 47mm tyres. Those would handle the off-road. A second cheap set of 700c could be swapped in for your commute and road duties.
Depends what your bikepacking aspirations are I guess. Just imho, I see the Road Plus format as (despite the marketing) only just capable of long days on basic off-road terrain partic when loaded up. Doesn't mean we won't do it, but it's so limiting compared to a good rigid 29er MTB. 650B x 47 is great for lanes and a few tracks here and there if you're primarily road-riding though, really good option.

For me a flat/swept bar 700 x 50-60mm tyred bike would commute well enough, I'd just get up 10 min earlier if the lower av speed is an issue, and it'd make a much better off-road bikepacker and all-round tourer than the average gravel bike. By the same logic I'd take a rigid 29er over a smaller-wheeled hybrid. It's just the basics of how wheels handle terrain and loads.
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nagasaki45
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Re: Bike for commute and bikepacking - a hybrid?

Post by nagasaki45 »

Thanks everybody for the suggestions. Super helpful!
lune ranger wrote: Fri Feb 28, 2020 1:10 pm I lived in a flat in Sheffield: commute bike in the hall. Road bike artfully on the wall. MTB under the bed.... :-bd
Now when I think about it... It might work. Will end up costing quite a lot more than I expected but the final result will fit both bikepacking and commute better, and with less worries about the bike getting nicked.

For those who suggested clamp-on mounts instead of replacing the fork. That's a brilliant idea! Especially if I get the lithium and add only one mount on each side below the existing mounting point. Thanks for that jameso.
whitestone wrote: Fri Feb 28, 2020 1:43 pm For gearing it's worth using the calculator at http://gear-calculator.com/ to figure out what range of gears any particular setup will give you. You can compare setups as well - a lot easier if you keep the same wheelsize between the two.
Thanks for the calculator, very handy! The more I read and compare my options I end up gravitating towards 11 speed SLX with 38t upfront and 11-42 cassette. I will lose one gear at the top from what I currently have and will get almost 3 more at the bottom. Maybe I'm naive but sounds plenty low end to me! The reason to go with SLX and not 10 speed deore is to make it easy to go 11-46 or maybe even 11-50 if the 11-42 won't be enough.
ScotRoutes wrote: Fri Feb 28, 2020 1:54 pm The good news is that "gravel" bikes are all the rage for bikepacking now and a hybrid is really just a gravel bike with flat bars. That means you are going to see lots of reports and videos of suitable routes.
lune ranger wrote: Fri Feb 28, 2020 12:15 pm I usually get my bikes and most components second hand. I most often buy a frame rather than a bike and swap over components as I go. With the right knowledge this can make things cheaper.
jameso wrote: Fri Feb 28, 2020 1:29 pm FWIW the Lithium was designed with touring and bikepacking in mind. It won't take the bigger 2.25+ tyres that work well for loaded off-roading on rough ground but for everything else (or a bit of the rough stuff among other things) it'll be grand. No fork mounts though, but will take a pannier. Or, use one clamp-on mount and the other on the fork will prevent rotation.
All of these comments just make me want to take the upgraded lithium approach. I don't plan to ride technical stuff nor very demanding terrain. The goal with bikepacking, for me, is to get away from cars, closer to nature, and spend some nights out. That's it. My limited understanding and experience suggest that a rigid 29er will do.

What would I miss with upgrading a hybrid instead of going, for example, for a pinnacle ramin or sonder frontier?
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Re: Bike for commute and bikepacking - a hybrid?

Post by Bearbonesnorm »

A Lithium will do everything you want it to.
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Re: Bike for commute and bikepacking - a hybrid?

Post by whitestone »

Quick point about gear ratios - once you get down to around 0.6, i.e something like 30T on the front, 50T at the back, then you are spinning away at 80rpm and moving at about 5kmh so you are going to be spending as much energy trying to stay upright as moving forward :wink:

My lowest gear is 30T front, 42T rear or a ratio of 0.71 and I rarely use that even though we've some big hills around here (Yorkshire Dales).

Ultimately it's just figuring out what works for you and what compromises you are prepared to make.
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Re: Bike for commute and bikepacking - a hybrid?

Post by jameso »

What would I miss with upgrading a hybrid instead of going, for example, for a pinnacle ramin or sonder frontier?
The Ramin or Frontier will take bigger tyres and a suspension upgrade if you want it later, the Lithium is rigid-specific and limited to 2.2" tyres. Aside from that you could say they're all as much rigid 29er as they are hybrids. Steering will be a bit slacker/steadier/more stable on the Ramin or Frontier and a little lighter (though hardly twitchy) on the Lithium but either way it wouldn't be a make or break aspect at all, imo. I'd take any of them for something like a cross-Asia 'packing/touring bike quite happily. Not all hybrids will do what a Lithium does re discs, tyres and handling etc but it's not unique in that respect.
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Re: Bike for commute and bikepacking - a hybrid?

Post by mfezela »

I use a Carerra Subway 2, for both those and more. £350 from Halfords leaving you £150 for racks, bags, etc.

Aluminium frame, 27.5" wheelset that copes with 2.25" wide tyres, 3 x 9 speed drivetrain, hydraulic brakes. Supplied tyres OK for commuting only, you'll definitely want knobblies for off-road. Rims not tubeless ready, but for me that's no problem. I ride tubes.

Comes with reasonable components that you'll probably want to upgrade as they wear out. I've added extra mounting points using rivnuts to frame and forks.

Although I have other bikes bought for very specific purposes, e.g. downhill, enduro, XC, etc. the Carerra has become my go to bike. The geometry of the 20" frame suits me perfectly, 5' 10" and average proportions.

First modifications I carried out were; replacement of the terrible saddle fitted as standard, removal of equally awful rubber grips, and application of duct tape to hide the branding ;-)
Last edited by mfezela on Fri Feb 28, 2020 11:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bike for commute and bikepacking - a hybrid?

Post by ootini »

I've got a KTM Ultrafire 27.5 hardtail that's had the front forks swapped out for Surly rigid jobbies. It's running Deore SLX 3x10 drive train, Schwalbe Nobby Nic up front, Rock Razor at the back (i use hurricanes in 2" for commuting) and mid range Shimano hydro brakes at both ends. I've also swapped the KTM flat bar for OnOne Ogs with Ergon grips.
I'm "thinking" about moving it on, so if the above fits your bill, pm me and we can talk.
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Re: Bike for commute and bikepacking - a hybrid?

Post by nagasaki45 »

ootini wrote: Fri Feb 28, 2020 8:28 pm I've got a KTM Ultrafire 27.5 hardtail...
Thanks for the suggestion! I think I prefer a 29er with 1 chainring though.
mfezela wrote: Fri Feb 28, 2020 8:07 pm I use a Carerra Subway 2, for both those and more...
Looks like a really good bike for the price and a good starting point for an upgrade. There are also loads of these 2nd hand in London. But again, 27.5 wheels...
Bearbonesnorm wrote: Fri Feb 28, 2020 6:30 pm A Lithium will do everything you want it to.
jameso wrote: Fri Feb 28, 2020 7:05 pm
What would I miss with upgrading a hybrid instead of going, for example, for a pinnacle ramin or sonder frontier?
The Ramin or Frontier will take bigger tyres and a suspension upgrade if you want it later, the Lithium is rigid-specific and limited to 2.2" tyres. Aside from that you could say they're all as much rigid 29er as they are hybrids. Steering will be a bit slacker/steadier/more stable on the Ramin or Frontier and a little lighter (though hardly twitchy) on the Lithium but either way it wouldn't be a make or break aspect at all, imo. I'd take any of them for something like a cross-Asia 'packing/touring bike quite happily. Not all hybrids will do what a Lithium does re discs, tyres and handling etc but it's not unique in that respect.
This is very reassuring! Starting to track down a pinnacle lithium 2 and a groupset. Will keep you posted with the upgrade.

Thanks again everybody for the help. Very much appreciated!

Cheers,
Tom
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Re: Bike for commute and bikepacking - a hybrid?

Post by nagasaki45 »

So... things evolved quite quickly today, and it's a new bike day :grin:

Image

Got myself an pinnacle lithium 2. 2015 in Large. It is practically new, and costed me £200. 5K ride home was quite nice. It's definitely heavier than what I'm used to, but that's expected. It feels nice though. Responsive enough but not twitchy. I think next thing will be to get some wider knobby tyres and wait for the weather to improve. Can't wait taking it for a 2-3 days out of London. Maybe new forest, let's see...
I think I will wait with upgrading the groupset. Can always do that. Will see how I gel with the current setup first.

If anyone is selling ~2" tires or a groupset that can take 11-42 cassette HMU.

Thanks again for all the help!
Tom
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Re: Bike for commute and bikepacking - a hybrid?

Post by Bearbonesnorm »

Very nice that Tom,
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Re: Bike for commute and bikepacking - a hybrid?

Post by FLV »

Nice one Tom, looks great. Sounds like theres room in the budget for a nice warm sleep system :-bd
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Re: Bike for commute and bikepacking - a hybrid?

Post by lune ranger »

nagasaki45 wrote: Sat Feb 29, 2020 5:37 pm I think I will wait with upgrading the groupset. Can always do that. Will see how I gel with the current setup first.
Good idea. Get some use out of what you’ve paid for, it won’t sell for much.
You can also wait for a bargain. You will also get to see the benefit of your upgrade if you ride the base model for a while
If you are going through hell, keep going.
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Re: Bike for commute and bikepacking - a hybrid?

Post by ScotRoutes »

Hmm. That's very handy looking!
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Re: Bike for commute and bikepacking - a hybrid?

Post by redefined_cycles »

nagasaki45 wrote: Sat Feb 29, 2020 5:37 pm So... things evolved quite quickly today, and it's a new bike day :grin:

Image

Got myself an pinnacle lithium 2. 2015 in Large. It is practically new, and costed me £200. 5K ride home was quite nice. It's definitely heavier than what I'm used to, but that's expected. It feels nice though. Responsive enough but not twitchy. I think next thing will be to get some wider knobby tyres and wait for the weather to improve. Can't wait taking it for a 2-3 days out of London. Maybe new forest, let's see...
I think I will wait with upgrading the groupset. Can always do that. Will see how I gel with the current setup first.

If anyone is selling ~2" tires or a groupset that can take 11-42 cassette HMU.

Thanks again for all the help!
Tom
Nice one Tom... Whats even nicer (for me at least) is that the chap who designed (AFAIK unless things have changed recently) that lovely bike is indeed right here having inputted on this very thread :-bd Ace innit when you can get info directly from the (humble) horses mouth :-bd Well done again and I too have a Pinnacle being built up slowly as funds allow...
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Re: Bike for commute and bikepacking - a hybrid?

Post by nagasaki45 »

FLV wrote: Sat Feb 29, 2020 5:46 pm Sounds like theres room in the budget for a nice warm sleep system :-bd
Haha! Yeah, have to spend the rest of the budget somehow :lol:
lune ranger wrote: Sat Feb 29, 2020 5:47 pm
nagasaki45 wrote: Sat Feb 29, 2020 5:37 pm I think I will wait with upgrading the groupset. Can always do that. Will see how I gel with the current setup first.
Good idea. Get some use out of what you’ve paid for, it won’t sell for much.
You can also wait for a bargain. You will also get to see the benefit of your upgrade if you ride the base model for a while
Yep, that's the idea. Will take it easy now and see how it goes. I believe that I'll end up replacing the entire drivetrain sooner or later, but there's absolutely no rush.
redefined_cycles wrote: Sat Feb 29, 2020 5:54 pm Whats even nicer (for me at least) is that the chap who designed (AFAIK unless things have changed recently) that lovely bike is indeed right here having inputted on this very thread :-bd Ace innit when you can get info directly from the (humble) horses mouth :-bd Well done again and I too have a Pinnacle being built up slowly as funds allow...
Thanks for highlighting this! Yes, jameso deserves many thanks for his help here!

Also, without being too emotional. The support and encouragement I've got here are amazing. Thank you all!
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Re: Bike for commute and bikepacking - a hybrid?

Post by jameso »

Nice bike Tom! :-bd
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Re: Bike for commute and bikepacking - a hybrid?

Post by nagasaki45 »

It's been a year, so here's an update.

As you can assume, this bike didn't commute much. About 2 weeks until covid hit.

On the other hand, bikepacking! I've done a few overnighters around London and New Forest. Then, two 4 days rides, one in Devon (the Westcountry Way) and one in the Yorkshire Dales (Kirkby Stephen to Manchester following the GB divide). These trips have been amazing. I fell in love with the freedom that a bike loaded with everything I need gives me, and with riding off-road, away from cars, and enjoying the scenery. I'm really happy that this bike allowed me to do all that, and on the cheap.

Image

Now, regarding the planned upgrades... Adding mounts for bottle cages on the fork was surprisingly easy. 2" tyres didn't fit, believe me, I've tried. I think the stated 2.2" clearance is for newer Lithium models. Instead, it was set up with 42mm WTB resolute. 45mm is probably the maximum it will take. I didn't change the drivetrain, but managed to mess it up a bit by starting an upgrade to deore 2x10 which I will probably never finish. The bike is just a tad small for me: the seatpost is out 0.5cm beyond the max line and I need it a bit higher, and the reach is also a bit on the shorter side. The later is probably due to changing to a swept-back bar without replacing the stem. Lastly, the freehub didn't enjoy the last trip as much as I did, and is going to die soon. The LBS said that it cannot be replaced and that I need a new rear wheel.

All of these and me gravitating towards more off-road riding led to pre-ordering a Frontier a few days ago! Don't get me wrong, on a fun-per-£ scale the lithium exceeded the expectations. Will probably keep it for now for London rides. Hope for much more cycling in the UK, and maybe France, on the Frontier this summer.

Thanks again for the help and support,
Tom
Last edited by nagasaki45 on Wed Feb 17, 2021 11:06 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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