Is this being unreasonable

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redefined_cycles
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Is this being unreasonable

Post by redefined_cycles »

So I got my winter cycling shoes (after deciding the cheap-offer Arcteryx were too much a faff and miaaing my spd) after much deliberation. MW5 Shimano.

Not expecting too much but pleasantly surprised and no probs of water ingress (except for when trying to overcome flood water and being upto the waiste in it.. like you do). But then the last weather warning we had (hence the being unreasonable Q) a few days ago, of ice and cold etc: I rode to work after being inspired off of here.

Around 5 to 10 miles in everything was fine and nothing too much too write home about. Feet were cosy enough in -5 (real feel) and I tried to avoid the big puddles as much as poss. I also had my full goretex army type pants on so I wouldn't have water seep in down the legs/through the Endura Singletracks. But at mile 11 and 12 I felt water had penetrated through into my toes. MW5 are described as waterproof (obviously not from the top) and my legs and everything else was nice and dry.

Gets to the (MayDay mayDay) train station at Garforth and checked my shoes in case it was just the cold playing with my head. But lo, behold, thw socks were saturated from the ankles down (it was sleet and light hail I'd been rieing through for them last 5 miles). Frozen and in pain I waited the train and also got slightly late to work.

I did take some pics but hadn't managed at the original point where it was obvious that water had penetrated thrkugh the centre/below ankles...

Question is, am I takin the P trying to chase up a warranty claim saying they didnt work. Especially since it was thriugh a Yellow warning that I tried to make em work and in the grand scale of things they're not the most expensive boots available (but £100 for shoes in the sales is alot in my eyes)... thoughts??
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Boab
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Re: Is this being unreasonable

Post by Boab »

How sure are you that the shoes have actually failed, and it wasn't ingress between the bottom of your trousers and the top of the shoe...? You could always fill a basin and sit the shoes in it, if they leak, then it's confirmed they've failed?
There are theories at the bottom of my jargon.
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atk
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Re: Is this being unreasonable

Post by atk »

K1100T wrote: Thu Feb 27, 2020 1:40 pm How sure are you that the shoes have actually failed, and it wasn't ingress between the bottom of your trousers and the top of the shoe...? You could always fill a basin and sit the shoes in it, if they leak, then it's confirmed they've failed?
I don't think they're sold as being submersible...
redefined_cycles
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Re: Is this being unreasonable

Post by redefined_cycles »

K1100T wrote: Thu Feb 27, 2020 1:40 pm How sure are you that the shoes have actually failed, and it wasn't ingress between the bottom of your trousers and the top of the shoe...? You could always fill a basin and sit the shoes in it, if they leak, then it's confirmed they've failed?
Pretty sure. I ensured the pants (they have a velcro fastening) were wrapped nicely around where the ankles are... if my calculations are correct then its quite possible the water came from there the wetsuit material (I forget the name just now) that wraps the ankles attaches to the leather/faux of the actual shoe...

Dilemmas hey trying to do the right thing :lol:
cycleofaddiction
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Re: Is this being unreasonable

Post by cycleofaddiction »

If your convinced and can prove that they have leaked then no it's not unreasonable in my opinion. The only place I would say they could possibly leak is the cleat area?
I have had a pair for years and never had wet feet and I only wear a thin pair of socks all winter in them so would know pretty quickly if my feet were wet.
If it was me I would let them sit in water level below the cuff and see if/where they leaked.
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Shewie
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Re: Is this being unreasonable

Post by Shewie »

Was the neoprene cuff still wet from your waste deep wading Shaf?
redefined_cycles
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Re: Is this being unreasonable

Post by redefined_cycles »

Shewie wrote: Thu Feb 27, 2020 2:31 pm Was the neoprene cuff still wet from your waste deep wading Shaf?
That was the week before Rich and I must say that way they did seem to impress me (obviously I arrived at work with saturated shoes and freezing toes ready to fall off especially after jumping in the shower too quickly). The Neoprene seemed to either have dried super quickly or stayed pretty dry. To be fair I dont totally understand neoprene properly but when I touched it (8 miles and an hour after having done the wading) I did feel impressed...
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Shewie
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Re: Is this being unreasonable

Post by Shewie »

Neoprene is funny stuff and can take an age to dry out sometimes. I have a $900 hunting jacket (I don’t hunt but use it for open canoeing) which has neoprene cuffs, it’s the only thing that lets it down.
The face fabric can appear or feel dry but the inner rubbery stuff is still saturated.

It’s a tricky one to call but hope you get sorted
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Re: Is this being unreasonable

Post by Taylor »

Water coming up through the cleat plate?
Have you sealed it after fitting your cleats?
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Bearbonesnorm
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Re: Is this being unreasonable

Post by Bearbonesnorm »

Are they sold explicitly as 'waterproof' or water resistant, weather proof, winter, etc?
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Re: Is this being unreasonable

Post by Loki »

Sure it was not sweat? Just throwing the idea into the hat, warm n toasty has it's downside.
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voodoo_simon
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Re: Is this being unreasonable

Post by voodoo_simon »

Looking at this image, I’d say the ‘boots’ are only waterproof to the top of the lace (I.e the ankle), the neoprene will just be adding more protection but it doesn’t seal the ‘boot’

https://images.app.goo.gl/4QJ48ZK2cD8ckQcaA

If you’re not happy though, I’d try a warranty but it may take a couple of weeks to sort
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Shewie
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Re: Is this being unreasonable

Post by Shewie »

Taylor wrote: Thu Feb 27, 2020 4:51 pm Water coming up through the cleat plate?
Have you sealed it after fitting your cleats?
Interesting, is that a thing?

Only got my first pair of clippy boots at Xmas and haven’t done this
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atk
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Re: Is this being unreasonable

Post by atk »

Bearbonesnorm wrote: Thu Feb 27, 2020 5:00 pm Are they sold explicitly as 'waterproof' or water resistant, weather proof, winter, etc?
Lot's of sellers describe as waterproof. Shimano go as far as saying "Built for riders without an off-season" :roll: but don't mention waterproof etc. Dryshield is described as waterproof but the boots aren't described that way by the manufacturer so...
ScotRoutes
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Re: Is this being unreasonable

Post by ScotRoutes »

My MW80s are waterproof because they have a full GoreTex sock built in. That means no water through the cleats either.

Experience shows that water will eventually make its way in through the ankle, often by wicking up off the boot, under any trousers and onto any sock.

If the cleat nut is removable/accessible from inside the boot (have a look by removing the insole) then tape over it and/or seal it on the outside with silicon sealant.
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Re: Is this being unreasonable

Post by ScotRoutes »

Shimano claim the MW7 is waterproof. They don't make the same clam about the MW5.

Any warranty will, however, be with the retailer, so how did they describe them? (The wiggle page says the MW5s are waterproof https://www.wiggle.co.uk/shimano-mw5-dr ... spd-boots/).
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Re: Is this being unreasonable

Post by Lazarus »

Interesting, is that a thing?
Not that i have ever experienced - i suggest you just plonk the boot in some shallow water and see if it leaks in
That said your cleat is bolted to your shoe to high torque with a plate then attached to a pedal - I am not sure that area is high impact for loads of water personally. Perhaps the pedal of choice may affect this ?? eg an egg beater offers no protection so may be more prone?

Japanther seem the best i have used as its not a neoprene cuff but you still need gaiters to delay the onset of water ingres though you definetly get hours without gaiters and i would only have them for all day riding.

The big problem with winter boots is the time it takes to dry them if they do get wet
EDIT: I have used Lakes, Diodora something or other [ cheap better for light rain] and the Japanther.
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Re: Is this being unreasonable

Post by Taylor »

Shewie wrote: Thu Feb 27, 2020 6:06 pm
Taylor wrote: Thu Feb 27, 2020 4:51 pm Water coming up through the cleat plate?
Have you sealed it after fitting your cleats?
Interesting, is that a thing?

Only got my first pair of clippy boots at Xmas and haven’t done this
They might be tightened to a high torque but there's two pairs of holes meaning water can ingress through the unused pair of holes.
Shimano shoes/boots usually come with a big sticker/patch to seal the holes.
redefined_cycles
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Re: Is this being unreasonable

Post by redefined_cycles »

Taylor wrote: Thu Feb 27, 2020 10:23 pm
Shewie wrote: Thu Feb 27, 2020 6:06 pm
Taylor wrote: Thu Feb 27, 2020 4:51 pm Water coming up through the cleat plate?
Have you sealed it after fitting your cleats?
Interesting, is that a thing?

Only got my first pair of clippy boots at Xmas and haven’t done this
They might be tightened to a high torque but there's two pairs of holes meaning water can ingress through the unused pair of holes.
Shimano shoes/boots usually come with a big sticker/patch to seal the holes.
Aha... yeah, these are slightly different from my other 'summer' shimano shoes as well as my previous northwaves... the clest holes dont actually go through the boot and looking from the inside/inner its all sealed like them goretex membrane shoes .. so the innersole sits inside a fully sealed lining from the inaide of the shoe.

I did think thoigh that the water might be coming from the cleat hole areas but what seems more plausible after listening to comments on here, is that the water must have come in from where the waterproof upper lining attaches to the neoprene... Then the cleats acted as a heat sink and voila: frozen wet feet.

Loki, good point about sweaty feet getting cold, but nope. It didnt happen. As I rarely sweat on a good day but on said day I went out perfectly wrapped in not too much and nor too less. Thats how I can confirm the real feel of -5 was accurate by the weatherman (had my 100% merino wool full armed jersey with a fleece Mavic cycling jacket and then a waterproof goretex Mtn Equip up top jacket... below my (passed on by a nice man) Endura Singletracks with goretex army type pants over and socks were just one layer of thick wooly booly style HJhall Ramblers... obviously an under helmet hat but not the deep winter one and some deep winter Outdry shelled gloves with some high spec gold or simikar lining...

Stu, yes I believe they were soled (sorry) as waterproof shoes hyt obviously that only accounts for the bottom half. I'm enclined to go with what Colin (ScotRoutes) said regards water having seeped in from bottom cos when i initally investigated at the train station shelter, I'm pretty sure the wet patch started where the neoprene material joined the main body...

On a positive note... It was minus 5 and in standard temps in the wet they've been fine.. Also, at least they dont take a month to dry so a good trade off.

Thanks all, just a quick test to ensure there's no leakage around the cleats (will fill em with water :grin: ) and if they pass then I'll just shut up and continue enjoying em (which I've been doing in standard Brit weather for the last 2 months)...
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Jurassic
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Re: Is this being unreasonable

Post by Jurassic »

Taylor wrote: Thu Feb 27, 2020 10:23 pm
Shewie wrote: Thu Feb 27, 2020 6:06 pm
Taylor wrote: Thu Feb 27, 2020 4:51 pm Water coming up through the cleat plate?
Have you sealed it after fitting your cleats?
Interesting, is that a thing?

Only got my first pair of clippy boots at Xmas and haven’t done this
They might be tightened to a high torque but there's two pairs of holes meaning water can ingress through the unused pair of holes.
Shimano shoes/boots usually come with a big sticker/patch to seal the holes.
The MW7 (and I assume the MW5 is the same) has a waterproof sock/liner inside the body of the shoe so whether the holes around the cleats are sealed or not is largely irrelevant. I've had better success with my MW7s since I started using Gripgrab gaiters as recommended on here but I think in prolonged heavy rain or if they were submerged above the level of the fake leather section they would still leak. The liner sock stops below ankle level and the seam between it and the neoprene cuff isn't seam sealed so even with gaiters water will still eventually penetrate if that bit is exposed to water. FWIW I've been a lot happier with my MW7s recently but I wouldn't buy them again due to the limitations mentioned above and the fact that my feet always get cold in them in temps below 7 or 8 degrees after an hour or so.
redefined_cycles
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Re: Is this being unreasonable

Post by redefined_cycles »

Jurassic... You sir need some HJ hall 70 percent wool army type socks... Temps of 3 degrees and they remain happy as larry :-bd

You know that old saying... when its cold, it wont be wet. Hence the situation I faced, in theory, shouldn't come round for a little while :???:

If you want some HJ Hall reviews then am sure Colin or Bridget or Jose will oblige (soon enough) as I went and got theirs today (long story) and just waiting postage now :-bd
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Jurassic
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Re: Is this being unreasonable

Post by Jurassic »

redefined_cycles wrote: Fri Feb 28, 2020 12:44 am Jurassic... You sir need some HJ hall 70 percent wool army type socks... Temps of 3 degrees and they remain happy as larry :-bd

You know that old saying... when its cold, it wont be wet. Hence the situation I faced, in theory, shouldn't come round for a little while :???:

If you want some HJ Hall reviews then am sure Colin or Bridget or Jose will oblige (soon enough) as I went and got theirs today (long story) and just waiting postage now :-bd
Thanks for the tip Shaf, I'd be happy to try anything but I suspect the problem is my feet rather than my choice of socks. I suffer from cold feet in other footwear and activities as well and I think with hindsight I could have saved £150 and got cold feet in the other SPD shoes that I already owned rather than forking out for the MW7s :roll: :lol: . As I said though the Gripgrab gaiters have drastically improved the waterproofing of my MW7s (even if they would still leak eventually).
Cheers, Chris.
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Re: Is this being unreasonable

Post by redefined_cycles »

Thanks Chris... GripGrab gaiters all round (Milkybar kid)... Yeah I may get some as its probably what my issue is... :-bd
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Re: Is this being unreasonable

Post by benp1 »

My MW7 boots are generally excellent, and I have warm dry feet most of the time. But when it's REALLY wet I get wet. Like today, very wet this morning, waterproof jacket on but just normal bib longs. Wet legs, wet socks, wet feet. Inside of boots damp but in fairness, there's a whacking great hole in the top of them

My try some grip grab gaiters at some point, but then I'd have to get my tights over the top of the gaiters which is more faff. My commuters are only an hour each way so I can put up with damp feet. Although I'm now in the office with damp socks on, despite having the hairdryer on them while I was in the shower
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Jurassic
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Re: Is this being unreasonable

Post by Jurassic »

benp1 wrote: Fri Feb 28, 2020 12:34 pm

My try some grip grab gaiters at some point, but then I'd have to get my tights over the top of the gaiters which is more faff. My commuters are only an hour each way so I can put up with damp feet. Although I'm now in the office with damp socks on, despite having the hairdryer on them while I was in the shower
Not as much faff as you'd think. I thought I'd only use the gaiters when the forecast was really bad but since I bought them I've used them every time for peace of mind. I'd highly recommend them for use with boots like the MW7 but I also plan to use them to seal the tops of my waterproof socks (SealSkinz) when I'm using my FiveTens as well, I can't see any reason that they'd be any less effective in that application.
Last edited by Jurassic on Fri Feb 28, 2020 12:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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