Sonder Camino - toe overlap

[Cheeky Monkey]

So I'm quite liking the Camino but the toe overlap is a bit off putting. Physically when mounting and the foots not clipped in and generally JRA.

I'm 5'10" on a medium with size 42 / uk8 feet in some old Shimano DX shoes. Hard to judge the amount of lap but I'd guess between 1 or 2 inches, looking down from the saddle. Cleats are about central in the slots. If anything I was going to run them further back so ball of foot goes forward as find it comfier but that'll just exacerbate it.

So, anyone experienced similar? Is this a "suck it up princess" situation or maybe I should've bought a large?

Thoughts, experiences, suggestions and pandas all welcome.

[Escape Goat]

Hiya.

This is completely normal. Every drop bar bike is the same. There's something to do with the legal side. If the axle of pedal at 9oclock has a distance to the wheel of 76 /86mm (can't remember) the bike should be sold with toe clip pedals to keep the foot back. That being said, nobody I know uses them.

Its just something you'll have to train your foot to not be at either 3 or 9oclock when turning.

[ScotRoutes]

Toe overlap of that sort of amount, on that style of bike is by no means uncommon. I reckon you get used to it and rarely get into a position whereby it is a problem.

In general terms I'm surprised that a Medium would be the best size for you. I'm 5'7" and would comfortably ride a Medium - but then I say that about many folks frame size choices. I thought we'd left all of the "I like it small because it's more chuckable" stuff in the past.

[Escape Goat]

True that ScotRoutes. Worth knowing I have a large for sale

[Cheeky Monkey]

In general terms I'm surprised that a Medium would be the best size for you. I'm 5'7" and would comfortably ride a Medium - but then I say that about many folks frame size choices. I thought we'd left all of the "I like it small because it's more chuckable" stuff in the past.

T'was more about the bargain price of an ex-demo and a need (IMO) to strike whilst the iron was hot. On their size chart I was in the overlap zone of medium-large. Took a chance with the Medium.

What's that saying " .... repent at leisure"

I don't recall so much overlap or the frequency I seem to be buzzing the wheel on my Roadrat or the Gryphon. Will persevere and see if it settles (or try a large next time I'm around an Alpkit shop).

[Cheeky Monkey]

True that ScotRoutes. Worth knowing I have a large for sale

[faustus]

I think a large might have been more suitable as your height is at the far end of the M range, and within the L size.

I prefer to size up a little on this kind of bike, so i've got an XL and i'm 6' 1.5". Had a XL Arkose and only ever had very minor toe overlap when mudguards are fitted. You can just get used to making sure your feet are in the right position to avoid it though, but it's also nice not to worry about it.

[Escape Goat]

True that ScotRoutes. Worth knowing I have a large for sale

Search the forum if you need to do something about your predicament. It's cheap.

[Cheeky Monkey]

I think a large might have been more suitable as your height is at the far end of the M range, and within the L size.

TBH, I guess at my height so it could be 5/9 or 5/10. Given their size range and that the other large was £200+ it was a gamble worth taking.

I'm also short leg but long arm and wide chest. Easy to "correct" on MTBs by fiddling with bar width and stem length but they (almost) never have toe-overlap.

Will fiddle and ride it some more to see.

[composite]

When I first test rode the Kite that I subsequently bought from Ian I immediately noticed toe overlap and it was the first time I had experienced it. I was slightly concerned at the time but I liked everything else about the bike so bought it. Within 3-4 rides I was unconsciously riding "correctly" for it not to be a problem. 5 years later and I must have brushed my foot on the front tyre a handful of times at most, normally in tight spaced commuting incidents dodging a pedestrian. I wouldn't worry about it.

[faustus]

fair enough if it was a bargain...

i'm sure someone on here had a large frame for sale

[jameso]

Hard to judge the amount of lap but I'd guess between 1 or 2 inches,

There's an ISO limit on how close the pedal axle / crank pedal hole can be to the front tyre. It doesn't eliminate overlap but 1-2" overlap does sound like a lot, not normal. Something in your set up? The sizing of the bike's a red herring as the rider who'd be on a Med or Large size may well have size 42s anyway and there's maybe only 10-15mm front-centre variation between sizes, often less.

This is completely normal. Every drop bar bike is the same. There's something to do with the legal side. If the axle of pedal at 9oclock has a distance to the wheel of 76 /86mm (can't remember) the bike should be sold with toe clip pedals to keep the foot back. That being said, nobody I know uses them.

Possibly an old rule I'm not aware of. The CEN / now ISO toeclip-foot retention rule relates to front mechs and chainguards (and it's arguably outdated now imo).
Toe overlap shouldn't be normal on a bike unless it's a race/track bike, though cleats and crank size, fit etc makes it a grey area. The ISO rule is that with the crank at fwd/3pm position when you turn the F wheel so that the tyre edge aligns front-rear with the centre of the supplied pedal (think top view) there should be 90-100mm clearance plus between pedal centre and tyre edge. 90-100 range depends on bike type, and it must add space for a guard in there also if the bike has eyelets for them - though some interpretation needed if the bike hasn't got space unless you go down a tyre size. Generally only the smallest drop-bar bikes with bigger tyres are tricky to get past this point and that's where slacker HTAs, longer offsets and limitations of 700C wheels on smaller bikes come in.

[stevenshand]

Jumped on to look at the geo chart for the Camino and surprised to see the same numbers for dropbar and flatbar bikes. Is that a typo or are they using the same frame?

Not knocking them, just seems odd. I know at Shand since we had a bit of a crossover with drop/flat bar bikes it always seemed liked a bit of a holy grail trying to get a frame that would work for both (assuming you could size down for the dropbar version). I never quite got there so we always ran with 2 specific models.

As for the toe-overlap, it's not ideal but you'll get used to it. On an older bike I built, the FC was a little short and even though I'm 178cm I still had some toe-overlap (with mudguards). On my commute, I had one 180º switchback on the cyclepath going up over a railway and it was the only time I ever got caught out (it was slightly uphill so I sorta needed to pedal!). You'll get used to it.

I guess my point is that sometimes it's inevitable on a dropbar bike but if they're using the same frame for the flatbar bike I think I'd be pretty confused/concerned to get overlap on flatbar bike if I was your height.

[ton]

I sold a genesis tour de fer on because of the toe/mudguard overlap. it was a pain.
my surly has it but not as bad.

does a bike with a longer wheel base suffer less? and what in a design causes it?

[stevenshand]

does a bike with a longer wheel base suffer less? and what in a design causes it?

A bike with longer wheelbase may suffer less but it's more to do with FC (front centre, BB to front axle) than wheelbase. Wheelbase is the addition of chainstay length and FC (I know, it's not really, due to BB drop but let's pretend that's not an issue right now!). Chainstay length can be pretty much whatever you want it to be and designers tweak this for all sorts of reasons but never really issues connected with fit. FC however is directly connected to fit and specifically TT length. You can still change FC (and as a result, toe-overlap) by keeping the TT length static and changing head angle and fork offset but this impacts handling. So it's really a case of juggling everything around to balance out fit without directly affecting handling negatively.

For custom or one-off frames, this is much easier to do if you are also building the fork. You can push the front wheel out and increase FC (and lessen toe-overlap) by building a fork with more offset. This will impact on the bikes 'trail' figure but you can bring this back in line by adjusting headangle. For big manufacturers speccing the same fork across all sizes it's much harder to do this.

[Al]

Got a second generation alloy Camino size L. I’m 6’1” with size 11 shoes.
Toe overlap only sees a problem with mudguards on. Worse with winter boots. To be fair even then it rarely bothers me, only notice it turning at slow speeds, as in starting off / stopping.
Had much worse bikes in past.

[dlovett]

Having rider men’s my Camino for 15k plus, it’s not an issue for me, unless I am running mudguards. Then you notice it at low speed full lock turning, but not otherwise. Other similar bikes I denied at the time had the same issue

[Cheeky Monkey]

I finally took a pic. That makes it look horrendous to my MTB-calibrated eyes Still great fun to ride but not finding the semi-frequent toe-buzzing a pleasant experience. I foresee either a large or something with less overlap in my future. Shame both the V3 of this and the Arkrose are out of large sizes (and I think I'd better check either for physical fit first )

I know it's a perennial question but can anyone recommend vaguely similar alternatives. Usage - riding whatever I do on my MTB but a bit slower (in the technical situations).

[Jurassic]

I have a large Camino (v2) and am 5'11" tall with size 43 summer shoes and 44 winter shoes. My bike has mudguards on permanently and I've never had toe overlap issues on it (I've had it on "pure" road bikes in the past but it was never a problem tbh).
Your foot does look a long way forward on the pedal compared to how I ride. I know there's a school of thought that it's more efficient with the cleat closer to the ball of your foot but if you do a bit of reading the ball isn't too far back.
Another suggestion might be to try some shorter cranks? That might help a bit and would mean you might be able to stick with your medium frame.

[robbie]

I have a large Camino (v2) and am 5'11" tall with size 43 summer shoes and 44 winter shoes. My bike has mudguards on permanently and I've never had toe overlap issues on it (I've had it on "pure" road bikes in the past but it was never a problem tbh).
Your foot does look a long way forward on the pedal compared to how I ride. I know there's a school of thought that it's more efficient with the cleat closer to the ball of your foot but if you do a bit of reading the ball isn't too far back.
Another suggestion might be to try some shorter cranks? That might help a bit and would mean you might be able to stick with your medium frame.

This It is hard to tell from the angle the pic is taken but maybe check your cleat position as as Jurassic says it looks like foot is very far forward?

[ScotRoutes]

Cleat? I assumed it was flats.

[stevenshand]

Something doesn't look quite right there. Because I have much more boring things to do (VAT return), I quickly drew out a medium Camino based on the specs from the Alpkit website. I had to guess fork length but everything else seems ok. I can't get wheelbase to match what they list with all the other dimensions the same so I assume there is some rounding being done somewhere. The attached picture shows a minimum (if any) amount of toe-overlap based on a 29er 2.2. tyres (736mm diameter), approx size 42 shoe, 175mm cranks and shoe positioned where I would expect it.

Are you sure you do actually have a medium frame? The small lists FC as 20mm shorter.

[Cheeky Monkey]

Interesting feedback chaps, cheers. And Steve, effort beyond, cheers

The cleats are far back and I might try them forward a bit. Doubt it'll take all the lap out. I seized up from my normal to give sock room (winter / wet riding) but even then they're not boats. Twas only half or one euro size IIRC.

Overall I'd prefer more cockpit space so think larger will be better but I'll check the dim's and see if somehow it's a small

[Cheeky Monkey]

Did a bit of measuring last night. I think I've got a medium frame (as expected)

[burty]

I am about 5.9 with a size 10 foot . I ride a large camino, the mudguards have being butchered with a grinder to trim it down so it wont catch my foot ,
mud only really catches the bottom bracket area a bit .