You’re bunch of criminals...

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ChrisF
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You’re bunch of criminals...

Post by ChrisF »

...or might be soon.
It looks like the government are considering making wild camping and bivvying a criminal offence:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ple-rights
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Charliecres
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Re: You’re bunch of criminals...

Post by Charliecres »

x( x( x( x( x(
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Bearbonesnorm
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Re: You’re bunch of criminals...

Post by Bearbonesnorm »

I'm fairly certain that this will have absolutely no bearing on what 'we' do.
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Charliecres
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Re: You’re bunch of criminals...

Post by Charliecres »

No but still ... x(
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Bearbonesnorm
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Re: You’re bunch of criminals...

Post by Bearbonesnorm »

Totally agree Charles. Putting laws in place which can criminalise many for the benefit of a few is never right.
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atk
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Re: You’re bunch of criminals...

Post by atk »

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faustus
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Re: You’re bunch of criminals...

Post by faustus »

I don't think this would affect sneaky bivvies, but any kind of criminalisation of trespass and further restriction of freedom to move is a disgrace. This is probably worse than Camerons forest privatisation idea!
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JackT
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Re: You’re bunch of criminals...

Post by JackT »

Wow the consultation is like some kind of weird logic puzzle designed to trip you up.

1. To what extent do you agree or disagree that knowingly entering land without the landowner’s permission should only be made a criminal offence if it is for the purpose of residing on it?

How are you meant to answer that if you oppose any criminalisation of trespass?
ScotRoutes
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Re: You’re bunch of criminals...

Post by ScotRoutes »

...or might be soon.
It looks like the government are considering making wild camping and bivvying a criminal offence:
Viewers in Scotland, look away now.*





" actually, there are discussions going on up here about regulating "wild camping" but they're about campervans and motor homes on the likes of the NC500.
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RIP
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Re: You’re bunch of criminals...

Post by RIP »

Well spotted. Utterly outrageous. A sledgehammer to crack a nut. Yet more infringement of our minimal freedoms. I'd like to agree with Stu, and suspect he's right, BUT.

I like the question about "landowners being afraid to approach trespassers". It's often the other way round!

We must all respond to this.

Here's the link: https://www.gov.uk/government/consultat ... ncampments

I simply said "neither agree or disagree" to each question and put this in the text box:

"This question is badly phrased and an entrapment.

AS A PEACEFUL LEAVE-NO-TRACE WILDCAMPER I STRONGLY DISAGREE WITH AND OBJECT TO THE CRIMINALISATION OF ENTERING LAND. 75% OF POLICE FORCES AGREE WITH ME."

Reg
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psling
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Re: You’re bunch of criminals...

Post by psling »

JackT wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:02 am Wow the consultation is like some kind of weird logic puzzle designed to trip you up.

1. To what extent do you agree or disagree that knowingly entering land without the landowner’s permission should only be made a criminal offence if it is for the purpose of residing on it?

How are you meant to answer that if you oppose any criminalisation of trespass?
That's pretty much what the guy writing the article is saying; if you "agree" then you are discriminating against Gypsies, Romany, etc., residing on private land with the knock-on effect that anyone putting up a tent on private land is comitting a criminal offence and if you "disagree" then you are effectively agreing to all trespass being made a criminal offence.

FWIW, I believe that it has been tested in law (relating to ROWs rather than trespass) that lying down to "rest" under a tarp is not considered to be residing whilst putting up a tent is. On a ROW you can pass, re-pass and rest so tarp good but you cannot reside so tent bad :???:
We go out into the hills to lose ourselves, not to get lost. You are only lost if you need to be somewhere else and if you really need to be somewhere else then you're probably in the wrong place to begin with.
slarge
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Re: You’re bunch of criminals...

Post by slarge »

Luckily a consultation isnt law, but it is a step towards it.

Looks like we really did get the government we deserve this time round. Hopefully a firing squad for the top layer, followed by a humanisation traing for the remainder. Might solve a lot of our problems

( sorry, always said I'd never get political on here, but we're in a really sorry state aren't we)
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Re: You’re bunch of criminals...

Post by Gregsie »

Reckon we should be fine as long as we don't start towing caravans behind our bikes.

Had a 'chat' with a very opinionated work colleague (won't go as far as mate) who used to work for the local national park about wild camping. He was saying how morally repugnant it was and how the park discouraged it due to the mess it made.

I argued that it was a minority that made a mess - a bit like saying that everyone that goes in the Peak in their car chucks a Costa cup and McD bag out when they visit and the majority are responsible folks who leave no trace and would be mortified if there was evidence that they'd been there.

Think the law that is for consultation would be a nightmare for local authorities. If you start seizing caravans from travellers you'd end up with homeless families to house which would be a real issue on a cultural level if nowt else.

Anyway enough politics - it doesn't matter who you vote for the government always get in.
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sean_iow
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Re: You’re bunch of criminals...

Post by sean_iow »

As much as I'm opposed to this I can't see it being an issue where I am, I assume other areas will be the same. As a local example...

A few years ago a bike was left in the road behind my house, I called the police to say a bike was abandoned in the road and maybe they'd care to look into it in case it was stolen? I was advised that if they came to collect it they didn't have anywhere to keep it at the station. They asked if I could get the serial number and maybe I could store it securely for them whilst they checked if the number was listed as stolen. So, if they can't store a bike they aren't going to be in a hurry to start confiscating caravans and tents as they haven't got anywhere to put them. It turns out selling off all the land and outbuildings around the police stations and closing all the smaller stations and selling them off wasn't such a good idea after all :roll:

They generally don't attend break-ins here anymore let alone have the man-power to head out into the countryside as someone has put a tent up.
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Cheeky Monkey
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Re: You’re bunch of criminals...

Post by Cheeky Monkey »

I suspect the lifestyle-van crowd will be inadvertently (?) caught by the potential legislation and will be up-in-arms.

Afterall, I bet the law will struggle to differentiate between a romany / gyypsy / traveller parking up and your average camper with their converted VW.

NB: tongue-in-cheek terminology :cool: :cool:
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psling
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Re: You’re bunch of criminals...

Post by psling »

Cheeky Monkey wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:47 pm NB: tongue-in-cheek terminology :cool: :cool:
Good job too, probably accounts for a goodly number of us bloody lot :lol: :lol:
We go out into the hills to lose ourselves, not to get lost. You are only lost if you need to be somewhere else and if you really need to be somewhere else then you're probably in the wrong place to begin with.
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Cheeky Monkey
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Re: You’re bunch of criminals...

Post by Cheeky Monkey »

I know, hence my statement-of-the-bloody-obvious-for-the-internet ;-)

However, I suspect it won't be long before (if there hasn't already been) a back-lash against parking-up. Nowadays round the bit of W.Cumbria I know I see plenty on the fell roads and around the lakes. Have also seen NP staff approach people in vans and campers to check they aren't planning to park-up overnight.

It's a bit of a conundrum. I like the romance of it and at a *certain* density there's not likely to be an impact BUT there will be a tipping point, somewhere. Wouldn't be surprised if some places are close to reaching it.

Not intending to be all "Daily Mail", just kicked off down an avenue as a result of that article.
ScotRoutes
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Re: You’re bunch of criminals...

Post by ScotRoutes »

Yeah, this is the case in a few places. Loch Lomond, Loch Morlich area, NC500, Skye, Western Isles. All have seen a huge increase in campervan/motorhone numbers, with folk parking up in all sorts of inappropriate locations. Some communities are allocating small areas for these visitors, with bins etc.

Police Scotland have a straightforward approach to the use of lay-bys, having made it clear to local councils that they will NOT move on anybody parked up in a lay-by for a night as they'd rather folk didn't drive when tired.
redefined_cycles
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Re: You’re bunch of criminals...

Post by redefined_cycles »

slarge wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:11 pm Luckily a consultation isnt law, but it is a step towards it.

Looks like we really did get the government we deserve this time round. Hopefully a firing squad for the top layer, followed by a humanisation traing for the remainder. Might solve a lot of our problems

( sorry, always said I'd never get political on here, but we're in a really sorry state aren't we)
Yes.. pardon my french.. But it is a bit sub standard isn't it. I used to comment about political parties in my daily life (wont say where in case I get reported by some tosser (sorry again) but since Boris came in I'm kinda not saying anything. He's a right friggin tosser isn't he... sorry again :sad:
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Dave Barter
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Re: You’re bunch of criminals...

Post by Dave Barter »

They generally don't attend break-ins here anymore let alone have the man-power to head out into the countryside as someone has put a tent up.
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Bearlegged
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Re: You’re bunch of criminals...

Post by Bearlegged »

For anyone who's concerned with the way the questions are posed in the online consultation, note that you don't have to respond via that method.

You can provide a written response by email (UnauthorisedEncampmentsConsultation@homeoffice.gov.uk), or post:
Strengthening police powers to tackle unauthorised encampments consultation,
Police Powers Unit,
6th Floor NW, Fry Building,
Home Office,
2 Marsham Street,
London,
SW1P 4DF

You don't need to respond to all the questions as posed in the online consultation, but if you can link your comments to specific parts of the policy proposals that will help.
frogatthefarriers
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Re: You’re bunch of criminals...

Post by frogatthefarriers »

Dunnit!
Konia kują, żaba noge podstawia...
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Bearlegged
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Re: You’re bunch of criminals...

Post by Bearlegged »

A draft response to the consultation has now been produced by the Ramblers Association. Anyone wishing to respond may find it helpful (and may wish to replace any mentions of "walkers" with "cyclists" or "persons"...).
https://www.ramblers.org.uk/policy/engl ... spass.aspx
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whitestone
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Re: You’re bunch of criminals...

Post by whitestone »

Currently got this in an email (along with a bit of preamble about not filling in the flawed online survey)

I oppose any measures that would deter people from exercising their rights to access the outdoors and are concerned that the current proposals could result in an erosion of people’s rights to access the countryside. Given the misuse of supposedly “narrow” legislation against legal activities, there is the very real risk that the legislation may capture, for example, overnight recreational ‘wild’ camping or inhibit the right to protest.

Walkers and cyclists may have to leave a right of way to get past an obstruction or may stray from it by accident where signage is absent or has been deliberately removed, or they may have sincerely held beliefs that they have a right of access. To complicate this further, not all rights of way are on the definitive map. Legislation could criminalise those users if they were on a well-used right of way believed to be public but which was not on the definitive map. Non-aggravated trespass on foot or bike on ordinary land should not be made a criminal offence under any circumstance. Exploring the countryside should not put people at risk of committing a criminal offence.

My wife and I regularly “wild camp” and adhere to the “Leave no trace” principle but this legislation would criminalise that.

Noting that 84% of police forces do not support these measures and that three quarters believe that their current powers in relation to unauthorised encampments are sufficient and/or proportionate these proposals are unnecessary. Placing extra burden on the police force is also unnecessary.

The government should be seeking to increase access to the countryside not restrict it.

-----

Owt else I should say?
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fatbikephil
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Re: You’re bunch of criminals...

Post by fatbikephil »

whitestone wrote: Wed Feb 26, 2020 2:33 pm Currently got this in an email (along with a bit of preamble about not filling in the flawed online survey)

I oppose any measures that would deter people from exercising their rights to access the outdoors and are concerned that the current proposals could result in an erosion of people’s rights to access the countryside. Given the misuse of supposedly “narrow” legislation against legal activities, there is the very real risk that the legislation may capture, for example, overnight recreational ‘wild’ camping or inhibit the right to protest.

Walkers and cyclists may have to leave a right of way to get past an obstruction or may stray from it by accident where signage is absent or has been deliberately removed, or they may have sincerely held beliefs that they have a right of access. To complicate this further, not all rights of way are on the definitive map. Legislation could criminalise those users if they were on a well-used right of way believed to be public but which was not on the definitive map. Non-aggravated trespass on foot or bike on ordinary land should not be made a criminal offence under any circumstance. Exploring the countryside should not put people at risk of committing a criminal offence.

My wife and I regularly “wild camp” and adhere to the “Leave no trace” principle but this legislation would criminalise that.

Noting that 84% of police forces do not support these measures and that three quarters believe that their current powers in relation to unauthorised encampments are sufficient and/or proportionate these proposals are unnecessary. Placing extra burden on the police force is also unnecessary.

The government should be seeking to increase access to the countryside not restrict it.

-----

Owt else I should say?
Cite the Scottish model which works extremely well?
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