UK ITTs - the state of the art

Talk about anything.

Moderators: Bearbonesnorm, Taylor, Chew

User avatar
whitestone
Posts: 7847
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2014 10:20 am
Location: Skipton(ish)
Contact:

UK ITTs - the state of the art

Post by whitestone »

Rather than derail the HT550 thread about the relative difficulty of various ITTs, here's one.

For those ITTs that see some traffic/attempts - looking at the EWE here - a suggested league table along with typical finishing times. The ordering within each grouping is just north to south.

Premier League (for Stu's benefit this is a grouping of ridiculously paid football clubs)

Multiple days.

HT550
Big Bear

Championship

Probably take two to three days.

Borders 350
Dales Divide
The Cambrian Trail

Division two

Probably take a day to a day and a half

Cairngorms Loop
Lakeland Loop
YD300
BB300
Braunton 150
South Downs Double

Division Three

A day

Deeside Trail
Capital Trail
Peak 200
BB200

Conference League

Under a day

YD200
The Trans Cambrian


Looking at the finishing times of the 200km ITTs they are almost all sub 24hr for a decent (and increasing) proportion of those who choose to ride them. It's getting that all the 300km rides are also seen as sub 24hr. I'm not sure it's better fitness, perhaps more that there's now more experience and understanding of what is required to post quick times, my times for the YD300 went from 35hrs to 29hrs for example.

In one of his "histories of the bear" posts Stu did discuss why he settled on 200km for the BB reliability trial, at the time 300km was seen as just too much for a weekend. Of course with the ever quicker times the 300km version is now with us.
Last edited by whitestone on Tue Nov 26, 2019 5:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Better weight than wisdom, a traveller cannot carry
touch
Posts: 284
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2012 2:11 pm
Location: Highlands

Re: UK ITTs - the state of the art

Post by touch »

There's a list of ITTs with distances and fastest finish times here to help fill in your table.
User avatar
whitestone
Posts: 7847
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2014 10:20 am
Location: Skipton(ish)
Contact:

Re: UK ITTs - the state of the art

Post by whitestone »

touch wrote: Tue Nov 26, 2019 4:17 pm There's a list of ITTs with distances and fastest finish times here to help fill in your table.
I know - that's where I looked for one or two times, etc. It's also a bit out of date.
Better weight than wisdom, a traveller cannot carry
User avatar
Bearbonesnorm
Posts: 23905
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 8:53 pm
Location: my own little world

Re: UK ITTs - the state of the art

Post by Bearbonesnorm »

According to Mike and Steve, I'd maybe consider moving the Big Bear up a notch ... 2 to 3 days, it probably isn't :wink:
May the bridges you burn light your way
middleagedmadness
Posts: 1799
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2017 6:37 pm
Location: Tir Na Nog

Re: UK ITTs - the state of the art

Post by middleagedmadness »

Bearbonesnorm wrote: Tue Nov 26, 2019 4:40 pm According to Mike and Steve, I'd maybe consider moving the Big Bear up a notch ... 2 to 3 days, it probably isn't :wink:
This, I ain't no racer but it's not a handy ride, (or at least the Eastern and Southern parts aren't) I think Steve's time will stand for a very long time as will Mike's effort, at my leisurely pace I was looking at 6 days albeit with storm hannah ect
User avatar
faustus
Posts: 926
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:30 pm
Location: Newbury

Re: UK ITTs - the state of the art

Post by faustus »

Big bear looks to be promoted, purely from looking at the route!

What's the difference between the cambrian trail and the trans cambrian? Rideway double? That might be div 2, mostly single day by the looks

EDIT - just saw the Cambrian trail is similar to the Sarn Helen route. And a bit of a misnomer as its snowdonia, cambrians, beacons.
User avatar
Bearbonesnorm
Posts: 23905
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 8:53 pm
Location: my own little world

Re: UK ITTs - the state of the art

Post by Bearbonesnorm »

What's the difference between the cambrian trail and the trans cambrian?
The Cambrian Trail runs N to S whereas the TransCambrian is E W and much shorter.

The Cambrian Trail was Ian Barrington's doing, so blame him :wink:

https://cambriantrail.wordpress.com/
just saw the Cambrian trail is similar to the Sarn Helen route. And a bit of a misnomer as its snowdonia, cambrians, beacons.
"Cambrian' has in the past being used to describe all the Welsh mountain ranges / high ground.
May the bridges you burn light your way
User avatar
whitestone
Posts: 7847
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2014 10:20 am
Location: Skipton(ish)
Contact:

Re: UK ITTs - the state of the art

Post by whitestone »

Bearbonesnorm wrote: Tue Nov 26, 2019 4:40 pm According to Mike and Steve, I'd maybe consider moving the Big Bear up a notch ... 2 to 3 days, it probably isn't :wink:
OK, I'll edit the original post.
Better weight than wisdom, a traveller cannot carry
User avatar
faustus
Posts: 926
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:30 pm
Location: Newbury

Re: UK ITTs - the state of the art

Post by faustus »

Bearbonesnorm wrote: Tue Nov 26, 2019 5:13 pm
What's the difference between the cambrian trail and the trans cambrian?
The Cambrian Trail runs N to S whereas the TransCambrian is E W and much shorter.

The Cambrian Trail was Ian Barrington's doing, so blame him :wink:

https://cambriantrail.wordpress.com/
just saw the Cambrian trail is similar to the Sarn Helen route. And a bit of a misnomer as its snowdonia, cambrians, beacons.
"Cambrian' has in the past being used to describe all the Welsh mountain ranges / high ground.
Fair enough! Looks a good route for sure, another N - S variation
User avatar
Bearbonesnorm
Posts: 23905
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 8:53 pm
Location: my own little world

Re: UK ITTs - the state of the art

Post by Bearbonesnorm »

OK, I'll edit the original post.
I was going to say, see what noth Mike and Steve say Bob, they've done both.
Fair enough! Looks a good route for sure, another N - S variation
Probably the toughest of all the N-S Wales routes.
May the bridges you burn light your way
User avatar
Charliecres
Posts: 1453
Joined: Tue Oct 01, 2013 1:28 pm

Re: UK ITTs - the state of the art

Post by Charliecres »

What about GBduro? I know it’s a slightly different animal (with more road than the others, for a start) but should it be in the list?
slarge
Posts: 2641
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2011 4:49 pm
Location: MTB mecca (Warwickshire)

Re: UK ITTs - the state of the art

Post by slarge »

The Big Bear is a cracking route, unfortunately it seems not many ride it which is a shame as there are numerous start points and easy food and overnight options. If you crack on its 3 days, if you take your time its more like 4-5 days. More people should have a crack.
User avatar
Bearlegged
Posts: 2292
Joined: Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:00 pm

Re: UK ITTs - the state of the art

Post by Bearlegged »

Not really an ITT at the moment, but I'd guess we'll start seeing FKTs for stuff like the Great North Trail?
Thisisnotaspoon
Posts: 86
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2018 1:36 pm

Re: UK ITTs - the state of the art

Post by Thisisnotaspoon »

What about GBduro? I know it’s a slightly different animal (with more road than the others, for a start) but should it be in the list?
The route could be an ITT, but the event isn't, it's 4ITT's back to back with the clock stopping in between and an overall 10 day limit. Different in that those at the sharp end are sleeping considerably less in the race than events with similar elapsed times.

Dunno what the rules on kit are either, I couldn't see anything about having caches at the campsites. I.e. you could have a supporter go ahead with a tent, mattress and cooking kit then do the race with little more than a warm jacket. Or you could sacrifice the race and do it as an ITT, getting to the end first, but with a slower time (because you're sleeping more on the road).
User avatar
stevewaters
Posts: 217
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2019 9:23 am
Location: Dark Peak

Re: UK ITTs - the state of the art

Post by stevewaters »

For ITTs where the rider is not intending to stop and is not carrying that kit is it even Bikepacking ? - It seems more like a very long mountain bike ride?
ScotRoutes
Posts: 8144
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 9:56 am

Re: UK ITTs - the state of the art

Post by ScotRoutes »

stevewaters wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2019 3:13 pm For ITTs where the rider is not intending to stop and is not carrying that kit is it even Bikepacking ? - It seems more like a very long mountain bike ride?
I've had this thought previously. The first GS of the Capital Trail was very much touted as a bikepacking event but many just cycled straight through and I was, for some reason, a bit disappointed . Still an ITT of course. On my only BB200 to date I included an overnight stop, mainly because I didn't want to drive all that way and cycle through half of Wales in the dark.

I've a plan to do the West Highland Way in a day and will likely carry a Sol Escape bag but I wouldn't refer to that as a bikepacking trip.
User avatar
sean_iow
Posts: 4269
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2014 12:08 pm
Location: Isle of Wight

Re: UK ITTs - the state of the art

Post by sean_iow »

People are now pushing the boundaries of how long they can go without sleep, with I think riding through 2 nights in a row now being done? It's only on bike comfort that currently stops me from riding longer.

This means that on Bob's list only on the events over 3 days will everyone have to sleep for a least some time, so on the list only the HT550 and Bigbear would be bikepacking ITTs.

But even on the shorter events some will chose to sleep, which is fine, if you ride the route for personal satisfaction there is a lot to be said for doing most of the riding in the light and seeing the sights.
Adventure without risk is Disneyland - Bikemonger
User avatar
stevewaters
Posts: 217
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2019 9:23 am
Location: Dark Peak

Re: UK ITTs - the state of the art

Post by stevewaters »

The others are still Bikepacking ITTs if the individuals choose to treat them as such.

It's not all black and white either - For example, I did the Trans-Cambrian in a day earlier this year, but I carried all the gear and then camped near Machynlleth just after finishing and then rode back to Knighton on the quiet mountain back roads the next day. - A nice bikepacking weekend round trip but with a "Non-Stop" ITT within.
User avatar
sean_iow
Posts: 4269
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2014 12:08 pm
Location: Isle of Wight

Re: UK ITTs - the state of the art

Post by sean_iow »

stevewaters wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2019 4:19 pm The others are still Bikepacking ITTs if the individuals choose to treat them as such.
I'm not saying they're not bikpacking, just an observation on how the distances covered non-stop have progressed.

When I rode the B150 in 2017 I carried a sleeping bag, bivi bag, tarp and poles.... but rode through and didn't use them :lol: In 2019 I didn't take any sleep kit apart from an emergency foil/plastic bivi bag. I'd already decided I'd ride straight though.
Adventure without risk is Disneyland - Bikemonger
User avatar
stevewaters
Posts: 217
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2019 9:23 am
Location: Dark Peak

Re: UK ITTs - the state of the art

Post by stevewaters »

slarge wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2019 12:10 am The Big Bear is a cracking route, unfortunately it seems not many ride it which is a shame as there are numerous start points and easy food and overnight options. If you crack on its 3 days, if you take your time its more like 4-5 days. More people should have a crack.
Could someone please point me towards information about the Big Bear ?
User avatar
Bearbonesnorm
Posts: 23905
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 8:53 pm
Location: my own little world

Re: UK ITTs - the state of the art

Post by Bearbonesnorm »

Email sent.
May the bridges you burn light your way
User avatar
whitestone
Posts: 7847
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2014 10:20 am
Location: Skipton(ish)
Contact:

Re: UK ITTs - the state of the art

Post by whitestone »

An ITT only has to subscribe to the basic rules, as seen on selfsupported.net, to be an ITT, it's up to the individual whether they "bikepack" the routes. They aren't bikepacking routes per se, that's just how we (as a group) tend to view them.

The point is that it's how fast you ride the route. How you choose to do that is up to you.

On this year's TDR Sofiane Sehili rode for several days without stopping in a "block" riding style before having a good night's rest and then repeating. I believe this method was originally developed by Mike Hall. This would see routes like the Big Bear and possibly the HT550 being done with maybe just a power nap or two. I think Alex Pilkington did the Dales Divide without sleep.
Better weight than wisdom, a traveller cannot carry
User avatar
Bearlegged
Posts: 2292
Joined: Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:00 pm

Re: UK ITTs - the state of the art

Post by Bearlegged »

whitestone wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2019 7:50 pm The point is that it's how fast you ride the route. How you choose to do that is up to you.
Thank goodness. I was beginning to worry that pub stops were going to be outlawed.
jameso
Posts: 5036
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:48 pm

Re: UK ITTs - the state of the art

Post by jameso »

People are now pushing the boundaries of how long they can go without sleep, with I think riding through 2 nights in a row now being done? It's only on bike comfort that currently stops me from riding longer.

This means that on Bob's list only on the events over 3 days will everyone have to sleep for a least some time, so on the list only the HT550 and Bigbear would be bikepacking ITTs.
Is that just a question of style though? eg sleep 1-2 hr with basic sleep kit vs no sleep but likely to be slowing down due to fatigue. A 2 night / 3 day ride would be (imho) odd to consider as not 'bikepacking' only because some would ride it w/o sleep. Or, we could just call it self-supported or long-distance racing/ITT and forget the sleeping-not sleeping aspect.

I'd go as far as saying anything that generally takes a faster rider 2 full days without sleep is still a valid 'BP' route, since the sleep dep aspect of racing isn't one I see as a good thing to be promoting. Call me grumpy, sure. I'm tired : )
User avatar
sean_iow
Posts: 4269
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2014 12:08 pm
Location: Isle of Wight

Re: UK ITTs - the state of the art

Post by sean_iow »

My comments about only the HT550 and Bigbear being bikepacking was particularly tounge-in-cheek :wink:

But the initial question is interesting, if you don't plan to sleep or carry sleeping kit is it bikepacking?

I'm of the opinion that if you carry any stuff on your bike in luggage it's bikepacking. I've ridden to my workshop before and packed my working clothes and steel toecap boots on the bike and I would class that as bikepacking.

As for the sleep deprivation, if you weren't a very fast rider (me) you could always sleep less, but now there are riders who are very fast and don't sleep either :roll:
Adventure without risk is Disneyland - Bikemonger
Post Reply