Waterproofs, de-lamination and repairs

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jameso
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Waterproofs, de-lamination and repairs

Post by jameso » Sat Sep 28, 2019 10:04 am

I have 2 outer items with de-laminated areas now. A Montane/Pertex jacket that is de-laminated in the hood area but otherwise is fine, bought SH on here that may have been like that from the start as I spotted it first wet ride. The other is my much-liked Endura Helium 3/4 shorts that are 5 years old but been on 5 trips, average of 2-3 days use per trip, now de-laminated and peeling at the seat area. Disappointing durability, but realistically if doing long days on those trips that's ~100 hours use and the pedalling action is bound to damage the fabric there.

Qs -
1) Can you re-laminate with care, protection and a gentle heat iron? Don't care if breathability is lost, just want to stop the wrinkling and deterioration and save 2 items from the bin. Thinking it may re-bond the layers but suspect I'll melt a big hole :lol:

2) The Helium shorts can have the WP laminated layer peeled off and the stretch fabric there would take a silicon+solvent proofing mix I think. Worth a try? Someone here mentioned this as a fix for a leaky tarp and I expect it'd do for a leaky arse-area in the shorts. May need care not to damage nearby fabric with it? I mostly use these shorts on a bike with full guards anyway so they don't get sprayed there.

3) Any idea what causes this? Hood or arse area suggests grease, sweat, friction?

FWIW I never wash these items in the machine, always a cool soap handwash and neither item has been washed in soap so far, just a lukewarm water rinse after trips to get worst of any sweat or road dirt off.

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Bearbonesnorm
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Re: Waterproofs, de-lamination and repairs

Post by Bearbonesnorm » Sat Sep 28, 2019 10:34 am

I'm thinking - most of these materials are made up from multiple layers and delamination is parting of the ways between them and once this begins, friction, etc soon sees the seperating layers fall apart. I reckon that while you can't bond the layers back together (they're probably damaged anyway) you could extend the useable life by 'proofing' with thinned silicone.

Probably won't be pretty and ultimately might not last very long but really, you've nothing to lose by trying.
#corporate shill for hire

redefined_cycles
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Re: Waterproofs, de-lamination and repairs

Post by redefined_cycles » Sat Sep 28, 2019 11:15 am

I reckon i managed to re-seam seal the Madison pants I had and had okish success with my goretex jacket... lemme know if you want a strip of the seamsealing stuff and I can post it on. I bought mine from pennine outdoors (or something like that the shop was called)...

So long as you use a layer between the iron and the material (I think it was suggested somewhere in some instructions to use that greasetype/greaseproof baking paper but I just used standard paper or a cotton cloth) and be careful and it worked out well

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Re: Waterproofs, de-lamination and repairs

Post by redefined_cycles » Sat Sep 28, 2019 11:25 am


jameso
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Re: Waterproofs, de-lamination and repairs

Post by jameso » Sat Sep 28, 2019 12:06 pm

Thanks ^ ... useful to know as that may end up being part of the repair, though the tape sealing is generally OK. It's the actual layers of the 2 or 3 layer fabric that are separating.

RE the WP trousers, I'm also now looking at the tub of cotton wax I used on my 3-finger gloves and thinking that getting some light cotton 3/4 pedal-pushers (BQ style) and waxing them may be worth a try. These lightweight fabrics can't last under pedalling motion for long and as long as I insist on light+packable I'm also just buying short term stuff that won't last? Better to have a bit more weight and bulk but durable kit. And legwear doesn't need to be fully WP, just weather-resistant. I'd not need to carry the knee warmers to avoid the cold clammy fabric feel either.

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Re: Waterproofs, de-lamination and repairs

Post by redefined_cycles » Sat Sep 28, 2019 12:14 pm

Aha... proper delamination. Can't say I've seen that on any gear really... you sure you're choice brand of soap might not be q bit harsh.... i read in one of the alpkit blogs years ago to use only non bio and not standard soap either as it has more abrasive rype qualities (read thia last bit elsewhere or potentially made it up :o ... )

jameso
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Re: Waterproofs, de-lamination and repairs

Post by jameso » Sat Sep 28, 2019 2:40 pm

I use non-bio / natural soap flakes for hand-washing WPs, sort of thing many WP brands recommend but neither of these have been washed in soap yet (though the Montane may have been before I got it). Maybe just the fabrics, doing some digging online and the Pertex stuff seemed to have a bit of a rep for it a while back.

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Re: Waterproofs, de-lamination and repairs

Post by Cheeky Monkey » Sat Sep 28, 2019 4:07 pm

Was it that red one I sold you James? Man alive that must be a few years old now, and no, never washed. Don't think I ever wore it riding either though it might have been stuffed in a bag at times. I went-full tart and flogged it when I got a green one for a good price 😉

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Re: Waterproofs, de-lamination and repairs

Post by jameso » Sat Sep 28, 2019 5:43 pm

CM, I guess so as I can't remember where it came from apart from on here - yes, Montane, red Pertex. Maybe it was my hair gel that did it :grin: It was D-L'd from early use, and yes I've had it ages, now keep it in my Brompton bag for short wet trips between work and the station so it doesn't really matter.

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Re: Waterproofs, de-lamination and repairs

Post by Cheeky Monkey » Sat Sep 28, 2019 8:20 pm

Yeah it was, you asked me for the receipt. Can't remember why we didn't send it back :???:

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Alpinum
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Re: Waterproofs, de-lamination and repairs

Post by Alpinum » Sat Sep 28, 2019 11:28 pm

Bearbonesnorm wrote:
Sat Sep 28, 2019 10:34 am
you could extend the useable life by 'proofing' with thinned silicone.
That's what I just thought. PU or silicone, thinned with solvent.

This is the hood of my 5 y old Montane Minim smock.
Image

If I wanted to fix it, I'd probably put thinned silicone on the outside and cover a larger area, than the membrane free spot.

jameso
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Re: Waterproofs, de-lamination and repairs

Post by jameso » Sun Sep 29, 2019 10:13 am

^ Any reason to seal on the outside, rather than the inside in the hope of sealing the edges of the de-laminated inner layers? Preventing wetting-out / absorbtion? I was thinking of peeling the d-l layer then almost trying to replace that layer and seal the edge of the damaged area with the silicon solution being used on the inside. Then re-proof the outer so it beads up as intended.

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Borderer
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Re: Waterproofs, de-lamination and repairs

Post by Borderer » Sun Sep 29, 2019 10:32 am

I seem to go through waterproofs very quickly. Actually most of our kit has a hard life and is very well used so I have resigned myself to having to replace things regularly. It doesn't sit well with my green credentials to keep throwing things away, and I often get frustrated when things only last one trip - til I remember - on a a two-month long trip our gear probably sees more action that most people's do in a lifetime.

Still, be interested to hear how your attempts to rescue things turn out. Please report back!

jameso
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Re: Waterproofs, de-lamination and repairs

Post by jameso » Sun Sep 29, 2019 10:43 am

^ will do - the repairs are more for saving landfill and learning that anything, as you say, we throw out way too much stuff as it is. It's true that our kit can have a hard life but it is all making me re-think the weight savings I get from light gear - I'd rather carry 500-1kg more and have kit that lasts (and perhaps isn't made of plastic either, very on trend eh).

On this repair and durability point .. I've bored people recently on this book but 'Let My People Go Surfing' by Yvon Chouinard (Patagonia founder) is an eye-opener. I dipped into it years back then got distracted onto another adventure book, but recently a few things had me seeing all this with fresh eyes, 2nd time around it's one of the most influential books I've read. Some very interesting reading about impact and lifecycles of products, business priorities etc.

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Alpinum
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Re: Waterproofs, de-lamination and repairs

Post by Alpinum » Sun Sep 29, 2019 12:31 pm

jameso wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 10:13 am
^ Any reason to seal on the outside, rather than the inside in the hope of sealing the edges of the de-laminated inner layers? Preventing wetting-out / absorbtion? I was thinking of peeling the d-l layer then almost trying to replace that layer and seal the edge of the damaged area with the silicon solution being used on the inside. Then re-proof the outer so it beads up as intended.
It just seems easier and more reliable. Also the feeling on the skin will be nicer.

Instead of getting new waterproofs for the 4 and 5 traverse of Iceland's highlands I simply reproofed two (one is the Minim shown above) 5 and 3 y old lightweight smocks and wore both at the same time. Kept me dry (was riding with a slower person, so sweating wasn't an issue), still only about 280 g.

The other thing is, when I ride fast I sweat, so I get damp/wet from the inside. With this, I'm not really concerned with weak performing (keeping the water out) rain gear. There's always exceptions, but this works for most trips.

techno mail
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Re: Waterproofs, de-lamination and repairs

Post by techno mail » Sun Sep 29, 2019 3:25 pm

Alpinum wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 12:31 pm

The other thing is, when I ride fast I sweat, so I get damp/wet from the inside.
What is your clothing system for high effort, wet, cool weather (i.e. UK winter) riding?

I also sweat a lot when exerting myself. I used to use a buffalo in these conditions and am trying to find a more tailored less flappy replacement as I liked the ability to adjust ventilation without removing layers.
The alpkit morphosis looks ok but without the pit vents I think it will be too warm too often.
I have tried a buffalo teclite but that was too loose fitting.....
Image

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Alpinum
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Re: Waterproofs, de-lamination and repairs

Post by Alpinum » Sun Sep 29, 2019 10:21 pm

Anything lightweight & pull ons.
Last few years it was Montane Minimus/Minimus 777. The Montane stuff is well worn and all of them all falling apart, so will probably give the OMM Kamleika or KamLite a try.
I used go with Rab's Demand pull on, but the rate I go through rain gear has stopped me getting more expensive stuff - the difference in weatherprotection and lifespan just was too small to justify the price difference.

For pants I use Vaude Drop Pant (I think version II - but not sure), bum is reinforced, no zip but goes over shoes and have a great cut and reflective elements.
But here too, in the crotch area, along the seam tape the membrane is gone...

I probably should get new stuff :roll:

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Re: Waterproofs, de-lamination and repairs

Post by techno mail » Sun Sep 29, 2019 11:43 pm

Ok, cheers.
I've had one of these for a few years and it works great https://www.mammut.com/uk/en/p/1010-268 ... acket-men/
Cheap enough (in sales) stretchy, reasonably light with long sleeves. It has vents and a hood the will go over my helmet but it's just a bit short at the tail to be perfect.
This feels like Goldilocks and the three bears.
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Rasta
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Re: Waterproofs, de-lamination and repairs

Post by Rasta » Mon Sep 30, 2019 11:14 am

I am on my 4th Patagonia jacket (warranty). The first 3 were H2no membrane. After a lot of fighting, I managed to find out why they kept failing. There was a factory that got something wrong in the process. I heard that it took a couple of years for this to be noticed. But that is kept secret.

Not sure if the factory supplied other brands.

My Marmot did the same. UK Marmot told me to get lost. So I sent it to the US and it got it replaced no charge.

I refused a 4th Patagonia jacket in H2no and they gave me a Gortex one. It leaks.

I've started using baggy/airy plastic tops for £10, like I wore as a kid. They don't leak!
Last edited by Rasta on Mon Sep 30, 2019 10:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Waterproofs, de-lamination and repairs

Post by Rasta » Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:59 pm

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