Atlas Mountain Race.

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Alpinum
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Re: Atlas Mountain Race.

Post by Alpinum » Thu Feb 20, 2020 8:38 pm

Lazarus wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 12:39 pm

I think 50% of the peloton have stress induced asthma so no need to signal him out. This is an unlikely high number when compared to the normal population. I thought  they could have 6 uses of an inhaler in 12 hours and 12 in 24  as I am not asthmatic is have no idea if this constitutes abuse or not.

Either way they are all dancing along the edge or using only the "fair" substances [pain killers caffeine etc. supplements shakes protein drinks etc.]That give a performance advantage and not the unfair advantage PED and EPO etc.

As for the rest they do biological passports so they do blood test and it’s odd you criticise a sport with regulations and tests. Considerable efforts  have gone into making  pro cycling clean again - i very much doubt any other sport goes to the lengths they do

IMHO it’s a certainty people are using drugs to do these [though I don’t know who] - whether these are legal and or acceptable [caffeine] or illegal and cheating I doubt we will ever know for sure as I doubt anyone will do a full disclosure
Froome came to mind first and is a case to which I can relate, since I too 'suffer' from EIA. That's why I stated "as one of many, many examples. About 2 - 9 % of the population have exercise-induced asthma. Your stated 50 % (the last number I came across was 40 % and was a few years back, likely from TdF starters) is a prime example where the sport stands. Wasn't my intention to present him as the only one playing "fair" games.

Fair and unfair drugs – it's an illusion. As is drawing a line in certain levels of blood or urine concentrations. Everybody responds to a certain blood level of a drug differently and has a different elimination rate constant. Well… all in all different pharmacokinetics. Knowing a bit about this science shows the immense complexity of drugs and how it's absolutely not a black and white world with fair and unfair drugs. What the regulation bodies are doing is just a mere "try" to control something you can't actually control, sometimes based on just one paper with a clinical trial of too few probands to call it statistical.

This is also displayed by the many drugs and concentrations which are banned by WADA, then just a few years later being released again. Or hormone level values being regularly adjusted… The difficulty not just shows in quantity, but even in quality.

It seems that as long as there's lots of money and fame to be won, a mess on the way there will always be made.

Yes, they do blood tests but apparently, they didn't test him on said substance.

Running blood tests doesn't automatically mean, that you test every possible drug. Even modern blood analysis systems still don't work like K.I.T.T. and Spaceship Enterprise with analysing substances.

What's clean drug? Spiking a diet with beetroot and garlic? Caffeine abandonment to be more sensitive when you race? A drink containing higenamine? CBD oil? Altitude training? Salbutamol? It remains a huge gray area. Then there's also the much (ab)used therapeutic use exemptions, which add more gray area to the issue.

I also have exercise induced asthma. Cold temperatures constrict my breathing significantly, but not in a dramatic way. Meaning I can't use the vital capacity of my lung and once I back off a bit, I get coughing fits for about 5 – 10 min. I sometimes inhale a drug called Seretide (contains salmeterol, very similar to salbutamol, but acts longer) and even though I'm close to the boarderline of EIA, I feel a difference after inhalation. When I was diagnosed with EIA I read through the various options of treatment and after some years Froome's case popped up with his crazy concentrations from which I really do wonder how one can inhale so much to get those concentrations. Concentrations more than twice as high as the max possible concentration achieved by excessive inhalation (during a not statistically relevant trial on which the max concentration level defined by WADA is based). Only with oral administration of salbutamol pills (which are banned by WADA) one can achieve Froome's values.
Scud wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 12:48 pm
obviously i do hope that there is nothing stronger than caffeine and ibuprofen involved, some people can survive on less sleep than others
I see interesting opportunities in the freedom to take what we/they want during bikepacking events/races. Experiments with drugs combined with a very low sleep threshold could brake boundaries in ultra endurance performance and medical possibilities.

I woundn't be surprised if Sofiane is 'clean' (safe for accepted drugs like regular pain killers, caffeine etc.), but would find it admittedly more interesting if he was experimenting with substances beyond the regular.
Fat tyre kicker wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 5:54 pm
6 uses of an inhaler in 12 hours and 12 in 24 is very much overuse,
I've been asthmatic for 31 years and not used that much when I've been
Hospitalised (once) with a severe attack.
Puts my long post into one sentance. Very much my point of view too.

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Dave Barter
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Re: Atlas Mountain Race.

Post by Dave Barter » Thu Feb 20, 2020 8:58 pm

whitestone wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 8:12 pm

I'm not one for caffeine shots, neither would it seem is Dave Barter of this parish - https://phased.co.uk/tour-divide---the-finish/
It's funny you quoted that Bob as I was going to reply that in the TD I was amazed by riders necking 2-3 of those A DAY and also constant Ibruprufen ingestion up to max dosage. I'm firmly in the no pills camp as I've yet to find any that work. I take sleeping pills occasionally as a placebo. They don't work but taking one makes me think it will so I end up stressing less about sleeping so do.

I think the rule should be you take a pill because you have to, not because you want to. That's enough for you to decide whether you are gaining an advantage or not.
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sean_iow
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Re: Atlas Mountain Race.

Post by sean_iow » Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:00 pm

Is there a much higher % of EIA in the pro peleton v's the general population because you have to exercise?

Given how lazy the general population is I'm suprised the % is as high as it is.

As it's induced by exercise, and given the volume and intensity of exercise required to become a pro cyclist, it's likely an occupational hazard?

Not defending the pro peleton, but it just occurred to me as another way of looking at the statistics.
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Re: Atlas Mountain Race.

Post by Bearbonesnorm » Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:05 pm

I think the rule should be you take a pill because you have to, not because you want to.
That's a very good way of looking at it Dave. I too am not a pill person, so couldn't imagine taking something unless I felt there was no real alternative.
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Alpinum
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Re: Atlas Mountain Race.

Post by Alpinum » Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:13 pm

gairym wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 6:19 pm
Am I 'cheating'?

Would it be considered any less acceptable if I was mixing things up at the pointy end of any given event?

What do we think???
For myself I openly talk about what I took in drugs just as with what I eat and rode. It's all part of the experience. No matter at what point in the field.
Bearbonesnorm wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 6:43 pm
Inhaler is a tricky one though, I'm assuming they're only really available on perscription?
No clue about other countries but in Switzerland Ventolin (salbutamol) and Seretide (solmeterol) are prescription only.
Bearbonesnorm wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 6:43 pm
Would I start using one in the hope that it would make me faster - no. If you do then you're a dick.
Same here. Probably why I dislike what's going on in many sports. With most I'm not bothered, but I love cycling and think the amount of lying is a proper shame. Doesn't help that pro's often don't dissociate with positive cases. Weren't they meant to be role models?
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Alpinum
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Re: Atlas Mountain Race.

Post by Alpinum » Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:18 pm

sean_iow wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:00 pm
Is there a much higher % of EIA in the pro peleton v's the general population because you have to exercise?

Given how lazy the general population is I'm suprised the % is as high as it is.

As it's induced by exercise, and given the volume and intensity of exercise required to become a pro cyclist, it's likely an occupational hazard?

Not defending the pro peleton, but it just occurred to me as another way of looking at the statistics.
Also exercise outdoors in all seasons. Yes, it's suggested to play into the percentage being so much higher.

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Re: Atlas Mountain Race.

Post by sean_iow » Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:24 pm

Andy has less than 10km to go :smile:
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Re: Atlas Mountain Race.

Post by Lazarus » Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:25 pm

I think the rule should be you take a pill because you have to, not because you want to. That's enough for you to decide whether you are gaining an advantage or not.
What of you have to take caffeine to stay awak eto ride through the night ?

TBH EVERYONE is hoping it improves their performance, including those who REALLY need it . I get what you mean about only taking a pain killer because you really do have an actual injury rather than its a bit of an effort to do the task you are attempting and this will help.
I dont drink coffee and the one time i took a cafffeine tablet, given to me by the other rider [not an ITT] it had a similar impact on me as taking a small amount of amphetamine would have. Did i need it - yes ,did it improve my performance yes as I would have stopped without it.

I dont doubt i could easily ride through the night by necking those
I do doubt i could do it without them - though I am rarely that interested in that level of type2 fun and would rather enjoy it a little more [ and its definelty physically beyond me to do that for 4 days even if i wanted to].

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Re: Atlas Mountain Race.

Post by Lazarus » Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:39 pm

Everybody responds to a certain blood level of a drug differently and has a different elimination rate constant.
Well yes and no. There is a range, as there is in everything, but its not like if we all took a certain amount of EPO none of us would be affected just that we would not all be identically affected in % gain.
If we drink alcohol we will all get pissed - granted me after two pints and other after 10 + but we will all get pissed. Next day we will all have affects though again a range. This range does not mean its impossible to predict the affects of consuming alcohol
it's absolutely not a black and white world with fair and unfair drugs
I think however you do this the boundary will always be as you say, fuzzy unclear and constantly changing and tested. However at the extremities its clear there is a big difference between a blood transfusion ,epo and testerone jabs and recovery drinks, enzymes and a massage.
People will push at the boundaries and it would be better if everyone just adopted Daves rule but the will to win means that wont happen

IIRC with Froome there were weird readings either side of his test and they argued it was a result of an infection that distorted his readings stating his kidneys were not working then when they did work they spewed out a lot on the day they worked.. IMHO its inconceivable a pro rider, who knows he will be tested, would go that far over a limit - no cheat would be that incompetent. I am not saying Froome is cheating i am just saying if he was he would not be that bad at it.

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Re: Atlas Mountain Race.

Post by Bearbonesnorm » Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:46 pm

if everyone just adopted Daves rule but the will to win means that wont happen
I tend to think that bikepacking at any level, so I'll include group starts and races should be about the journey not simply the destination - I vote whoever gets back first loses and those who present the nicest pictures or write something inspiring or interesting about their journey should be pronounced winners ... there we go, I fixed the potential problem just like that. The UCI know nowt :-bd
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Re: Atlas Mountain Race.

Post by Karl » Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:49 pm

But I don't either Stu, what does that make me?

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Re: Atlas Mountain Race.

Post by Bearbonesnorm » Thu Feb 20, 2020 10:05 pm

You don't either what Karl? Take pictures or write stuff?
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Re: Atlas Mountain Race.

Post by jameso » Thu Feb 20, 2020 10:13 pm

Interesting thread... Dave's 'have to not want to' is fair. As is the idea that you're in a contract of honour or something like that with the other riders. Anyone taking something non-prescribed that is a bit unusual (ie you can't buy it legally along the route, could be my view of unusual) belongs outside of racing.
Personally I can't stomach that 5 Hour Energy or Red Bull stuff but Proplus, why not. I like coffee. All that probably makes about as much difference as riding with or without a phone or other minor ethic or style choices based around established normal stuff. That's why the longer races become a fairer test, things even out more. You can't just keep necking energy shots for 2 weeks unless you're so used to it that it's making little real difference.

and

Last km for Andy now :-bd

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gairym
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Re: Atlas Mountain Race.

Post by gairym » Thu Feb 20, 2020 10:22 pm

Great riding by Andy - solid performance on what looks like a doozy of a route!*

(*at some point if nobody else suggests it first I'll probably suggest a BB non-competitive group start if folk are interested but I need to get my back functioning again first :-bd )

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Re: Atlas Mountain Race.

Post by pistonbroke » Thu Feb 20, 2020 10:25 pm

Top result Andy 51/2 days. :-bd

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Alpinum
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Re: Atlas Mountain Race.

Post by Alpinum » Thu Feb 20, 2020 10:33 pm

Lovely to see Ian back at it (Rovaniemi) and Andy going strong as usual.
Neil (composite) is back enjoying riding long distances too :-bd

Feeling really happy about our little Wales C2C attempt group :grin:

Parforce as we would say in Switzerland (like superb performance).

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Re: Atlas Mountain Race.

Post by Bearbonesnorm » Fri Feb 21, 2020 9:39 am

Well done Andy - sterling effort :-bd

Have we just witnessed the catalyst for a shift in mindset with regard to racing?

I've read a few comments on social media where people are saying how 'this isn't racing' and that a winner shouldn't be decided by the ability to forgo sleep. Personally, I'm of the opion that it is part of racing as has just being proved but I can understand peoples concerns as there must be some safety implications ... these concerns obviously (in my mind) grow when a race is conducted on public roads.

As I said yesterday, I believe we'll see a two tier system emerge. It won't be official but will probably see 5% of riders battling for a podium using low no sleep / rest tatic with the remainder of the field resting as and when required - same as they do now.

Some people just have a natural ability to function on limited sleep - most of us don't. Should those who can be penalised? Should someone with the natural ability to run 100m in record time be made to do so with their legs tied together to give me a better chance?

What we've seen over the last week was a remarkable show of human endurance. Yes, look on in amazement and wonder how that's possible but should it be stiffled simply because most of us couldn't do the same? No I don't think so.
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Re: Atlas Mountain Race.

Post by whitestone » Fri Feb 21, 2020 10:27 am

Stu, it may be that more events mandate a rest period each day in the way that the Tour Aotearoa does, I believe there's a 6hr block in each 24hrs that must be non moving for that. Certainly for events that use road to a greater extent it would make sense.

For off-road events it's less clear cut. I tend to ride until I start making "silly" mistakes that I wouldn't normally be making: riding off the track when it's straight and easy going for example. Then again that might just be self-preservation on my part and "not wanting" to race in the same way as the pointy end would. From memory I think Neil Beltchenko was planning to ride for two days straight on the 2017 HT550 but in the end stopped for a couple of hours' power nap on the first night - he still only stopped for less than ten hours total.

Long, as in >36hrs, stints have been part of races like RAAM for a good few years so it's probably that mindset moving to ITTs rather than anything new. More publicity about it and internet chatter like this I suppose.
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Re: Atlas Mountain Race.

Post by jameso » Fri Feb 21, 2020 11:18 am

I've read a few comments on social media where people are saying how 'this isn't racing' and that a winner shouldn't be decided by the ability to forgo sleep.
... a fairly daft thing to say about a single-stage distance race isn't it :grin: it's an evolving sport. One day an established 'block' rider will be beaten by a strong 'rhythm' rider. No one tactic is best. All that counts is total average speed.

may be that more events mandate a rest period each day in the way that the Tour Aotearoa does, I believe there's a 6hr block in each 24hrs that must be non moving for that. Certainly for events that use road to a greater extent it would make sense.
Realising this isn't your point, though T-A isn't a race as far as I understood it? But I agree - those events that do put a mandatory downtime in per day will be the ones most likely to get the Pro road team guys in and become the next Ironman/etc to sell out for big bucks, which let's face it is what many event organisers will be looking at - eg sell to Life Time and HumanRace, companies that buy up events
https://www.velonews.com/2019/12/gravel ... nza_503021
And there will always be those who see the simple, open, single-stage event as the purest form of distance racing. If anything the evolution of some will support the devolution/back to the roots spirit of other events.

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Re: Atlas Mountain Race.

Post by Bearbonesnorm » Fri Feb 21, 2020 11:29 am

If anything the evolution of some will support the devolution/back to the roots spirit of other events.
This I believe is very true.
Time and HumanRace, companies that buy up events
https://www.velonews.com/2019/12/gravel ... nza_503021
Ooh wonder if they'd like to buy the BB200. I could remain in my role as chief b'stard. :wink:
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Alpinum
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Re: Atlas Mountain Race.

Post by Alpinum » Fri Feb 21, 2020 11:59 am

Bearbonesnorm wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 9:39 am
Well done Andy - sterling effort :-bd

Have we just witnessed the catalyst for a shift in mindset with regard to racing?

I've read a few comments on social media where people are saying how 'this isn't racing' and that a winner shouldn't be decided by the ability to forgo sleep. Personally, I'm of the opion that it is part of racing as has just being proved but I can understand peoples concerns as there must be some safety implications ... these concerns obviously (in my mind) grow when a race is conducted on public roads.
Must be?
Mike Hall is dead.
Sometimes I wonder if I'm the only one who believes such accidents like Mike's could've been prevented.
He knew about the risks and went on doing what he loved.
Cool in a way. seeing it in an extreme form with Ueli Steck for his very commiting way of life. He never made a fuss about death and openly spoke about how he'd never grow old, even next to his then girlfriend (now widow). Yet Ueli didn't endager others the way a traffic participant does.
Racing on road you're not just setting yourself at risk - which is absolutely fine and even fun (for some) - but also others - in this case the other taking part in traffic. Like it or not, you're being a dick riding in traffic really tired. Even more riding on busy roads and with fashionably clothing in muted colours. There, I did it again; calling a name.

Road heavy races shouldn't be run like the Red Bull X-Alps. Mandatory rest blocks and one or two jokers to pull an all-nighter.

Once down to less than 10 % (or perhaps 20 %) of road riding (minimising the chance of making a mess)
Bearbonesnorm wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 9:39 am
As I said yesterday, I believe we'll see a two tier system emerge.
Already has.
Bearbonesnorm wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 9:39 am
Some people just have a natural ability to function on limited sleep - most of us don't. Should those who can be penalised?
Nope. They're better, let them be just that. It's my "problem" if I can't keep up. After all, I don't seem to want it enough (I never went anywhere close to my limits with not sleeping - so I don't know how much is inherent). Easy to accept that and wonderful to marvel at how Sofiane Sehili and the late Mike Hall, Josh Kato, Jay Petervay, Lael Wilcox and many others have this kind of drive and ability.
Bearbonesnorm wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 9:39 am
What we've seen over the last week was a remarkable show of human endurance. Yes, look on in amazement and wonder how that's possible but should it be stiffled simply because most of us couldn't do the same? No I don't think so.
Exactly. Did Sofiane ride with no helmet again?
As much as I find this stupid, like riding on the road on little sleep, motorway, what not - I feel inspired by him. I don't know why, but for me he's moved the boundaries like no one else has in the last 3 years - except perhaps for Jenny Graham.

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Re: Atlas Mountain Race.

Post by Bearbonesnorm » Fri Feb 21, 2020 7:58 pm

Looks like Shona, Rich and Nigel should be finished tomorrow :-bd
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Lazarus
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Re: Atlas Mountain Race.

Post by Lazarus » Fri Feb 21, 2020 8:29 pm

No one tactic is best
Not sleeping really cannot be beaten. No one who had 18 hours sleep [6 per day] could beat sofiane as the average speed required is not possible.
They may adapt how they do this tactic but not/barley/hardly sleeping is clearly the best tactic.

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Re: Atlas Mountain Race.

Post by redefined_cycles » Fri Feb 21, 2020 8:47 pm

Dave Barter wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 6:48 pm
Go Andy

And is it just me that wants to completely rewrite that mapping site.
I clicked on it a couple times during the start but couldn't make any swnse of it so gave up... Is the race over?? Has Sofiane won??...

Regards, what goes through his head at 50+ hours... According to (AFAIR) last years 'ride or die' podcasts, it seems he hallucinates alot. Anyway, utter madness forgoing sleep for that long and undoubtedly he'll be seeing repercussions (I imagine) to health in the years to come...

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Re: Atlas Mountain Race.

Post by jameso » Fri Feb 21, 2020 9:13 pm

Not sleeping really cannot be beaten. No one who had 18 hours sleep [6 per day] could beat sofiane as the average speed required is not possible.
They may adapt how they do this tactic but not/barley/hardly sleeping is clearly the best tactic.
Not / hardly sleeping seems to be OK for a 3-5 day event, maybe for 2 blocks of 3-4 days? Your average speed drops at night and when you get more tired you'll make bad choices more often, plus you're not recovering. I don't know but I think it'll only work for a while, to create a gap, or for a select few riders. But regular 2-4 hour sleeps might maintain the ability to ride at the 15km/h that Christian Meier was keeping up vs 13km/h that Sophiane was riding at. +2km/h allows 3hrs kip to cover the same ground in 24hrs. If you're getting 3hrs kip a night average the guy on almost no sleep will crack eventually or need a longer stop. Seems very possible to be fast enough to sleep more and win.

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