What's fueling the hate?
Moderators: Bearbonesnorm, Taylor, Chew
- RIP
- Posts: 9077
- Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2014 7:24 pm
- Location: Surfing The Shores Of Sanity Since 1959
- Contact:
Re: What's fueling the hate?
I guess everybody's got wants as well as wishes Stu, and it'd be a bit churlish to dismiss ALL of those wants as "unnecessary", "frivolous", "unfair" etc (not that I'm saying you are) . But yes I agree there's seems to be a lot more "don't care about the consequences" or even "I know about but still don't care about the consequences". It's also the "entitlement", as you said, that seems common now - "I'm entitled to drive how I like, it's my car and I pay road-tax" etc etc.
"Unless he actually tried to fall asleep, rather than tried to stay awake when too tired* ,then it was an accident." - Nah . That's being a bit too understanding and generous IMHO. He made many decisions leading up to the crash which were obviously going to render him too tired to be in control of a vehicle. He could have pulled over many times before he crashed. We come back to responsibility. Now if he'd been struck by lightning and swerved that'd be an accident in my book. If he skidded on a wet road - well he should've been driving more in accordance with the conditions. If we applied the same rules/checks/competencies on private car drivers that we do on lorry/plane/train/ship "drivers"... well..... or are we saying we should reduce those rules/checks/competencies right down to those that [don't] exist for 'motorists'?
I know this "accident" thing is something Stu's interested in so one awaits the next comments . I'm not saying SOME/MANY things aren't accidents, and I'm not saying people should necessarily be fined a zillion pounds for a "mistake", but it's too easy to absolve responsibility in many cases as well and that lack of responsibility needs to be acknowledged/"punished" somehow. If not, let's bin MOT's, pre-flight-checks, flywheel-guards etc and save ourselves a load of cash and wasted time.
"Unless he actually tried to fall asleep, rather than tried to stay awake when too tired* ,then it was an accident." - Nah . That's being a bit too understanding and generous IMHO. He made many decisions leading up to the crash which were obviously going to render him too tired to be in control of a vehicle. He could have pulled over many times before he crashed. We come back to responsibility. Now if he'd been struck by lightning and swerved that'd be an accident in my book. If he skidded on a wet road - well he should've been driving more in accordance with the conditions. If we applied the same rules/checks/competencies on private car drivers that we do on lorry/plane/train/ship "drivers"... well..... or are we saying we should reduce those rules/checks/competencies right down to those that [don't] exist for 'motorists'?
I know this "accident" thing is something Stu's interested in so one awaits the next comments . I'm not saying SOME/MANY things aren't accidents, and I'm not saying people should necessarily be fined a zillion pounds for a "mistake", but it's too easy to absolve responsibility in many cases as well and that lack of responsibility needs to be acknowledged/"punished" somehow. If not, let's bin MOT's, pre-flight-checks, flywheel-guards etc and save ourselves a load of cash and wasted time.
Last edited by RIP on Sun Jul 21, 2019 4:46 pm, edited 9 times in total.
"My God, Ponsonby, I'm two-thirds of the way to the grave and what have I done?" - RIP
The sign outside the asylum is the wrong way round.....
"At least you got some stories" - James Acaster
The sign outside the asylum is the wrong way round.....
"At least you got some stories" - James Acaster
- RIP
- Posts: 9077
- Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2014 7:24 pm
- Location: Surfing The Shores Of Sanity Since 1959
- Contact:
Re: What's fueling the hate?
Sorry, I'm hogging this but I've been allowed out to play after her chores. I find the double-standards amusing too (and yes gawd knows I have plenty of my own). "I pay road-tax so that should all get spent on roads (ie cars)" - we all know there is no road tax, but even if there was this statement is the same as "I pay tax on my fags so that should all go towards smokers shelters" or "I pay tax on my alcohol so that should get spent on more breweries and pubs". Tax doesn't work like that. The one that always makes me laugh is the anti-"speed"-camera vehemence: I've lost track of the number of people who are proud to break these laws, but in the same breath want laws to ban drugs, ban pavement cyclists, and ban sex-on-park-benches.
"My God, Ponsonby, I'm two-thirds of the way to the grave and what have I done?" - RIP
The sign outside the asylum is the wrong way round.....
"At least you got some stories" - James Acaster
The sign outside the asylum is the wrong way round.....
"At least you got some stories" - James Acaster
Re: What's fueling the hate?
A lot of "mm-hmm" here when reading your first epic Reg.
And on a lighter note, I almost heard the voice of John Cleese's J.P.F character in Life of Brian when I read
(Sorry m.a.m.. no reflection on your post, just my own mental mechanics..)
And on a lighter note, I almost heard the voice of John Cleese's J.P.F character in Life of Brian when I read
Its not just people want rights Reg
(Sorry m.a.m.. no reflection on your post, just my own mental mechanics..)
Re: What's fueling the hate?
I think you need to reconcile what the dictionary says the word accident means and what your book say.. Now if he'd been struck by lightning and swerved that'd be an accident in my book
Almost all accidents are avoidable , and often someone is to blame, however the very word accident means without intent.
This does not mean someone is not to blame and could not have acted to avoid the accident, as you clearly explain, it simply means they did not DELIBERATELY try to cause the event.
Either way we both agree its their fault.
-
- Posts: 1799
- Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2017 6:37 pm
- Location: Tir Na Nog
Re: What's fueling the hate?
No need to explain James ,Im not the most subtle person ,so I don't take offense at muchjameso wrote: ↑Sun Jul 21, 2019 4:33 pm A lot of "mm-hmm" here when reading your first epic Reg.
And on a lighter note, I almost heard the voice of John Cleese's J.P.F character in Life of Brian when I readIts not just people want rights Reg
(Sorry m.a.m.. no reflection on your post, just my own mental mechanics..)
- RIP
- Posts: 9077
- Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2014 7:24 pm
- Location: Surfing The Shores Of Sanity Since 1959
- Contact:
Re: What's fueling the hate?
"epic" - I blame Stu, he always comes up with these brill topics and I just can't help myself (oh, that must be my lack of personal responsibility again ). Yeah, fair enough Laz, I was getting a bit too bogged down there maybe .
'And on a lighter note' - ahhh, thanks James, thank goodness for that
'And on a lighter note' - ahhh, thanks James, thank goodness for that
"My God, Ponsonby, I'm two-thirds of the way to the grave and what have I done?" - RIP
The sign outside the asylum is the wrong way round.....
"At least you got some stories" - James Acaster
The sign outside the asylum is the wrong way round.....
"At least you got some stories" - James Acaster
- Bearbonesnorm
- Posts: 23942
- Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 8:53 pm
- Location: my own little world
Re: What's fueling the hate?
Oh yeah, I like a good accident Reg, many of us wouldn't be here otherwise
No, my point about accidents is that the definition is wrong. I believe that many so called accidents aren't really because they could have been avoided somewhere along the line ... just because you had no intent and you didn't act with malice shouldn't be enough to write something of as an accident. What I take exception to is being told that 'Accidents don't happen' like it's black and white and always someones fault when the truth is, it isn't.
ooh, something I learnt on my course the other day was that there's now an offence of 'driving without consideration to other road users'. Seems to perhaps be a lesser charge than 'due care' and a nod towards anti-social / nobbish behaviour.
No, my point about accidents is that the definition is wrong. I believe that many so called accidents aren't really because they could have been avoided somewhere along the line ... just because you had no intent and you didn't act with malice shouldn't be enough to write something of as an accident. What I take exception to is being told that 'Accidents don't happen' like it's black and white and always someones fault when the truth is, it isn't.
ooh, something I learnt on my course the other day was that there's now an offence of 'driving without consideration to other road users'. Seems to perhaps be a lesser charge than 'due care' and a nod towards anti-social / nobbish behaviour.
May the bridges you burn light your way
Re: What's fueling the hate?
All accidents can be avoided as stationary objects dont hit anything so something has to be moving. If we all park up all road accidents end,I believe that many so called accidents aren't really because they could have been avoided somewhere along the line
the other point, which is also true, is that culpability can range from - by god you were unlucky* to what were you thinking you mad fool that is all your fault. This is where the sentencing matters and they seem to think everything involving a car is the former and a bike the later.
* My first accident involved me turning into a road, the car collapsing, me seeing my front wheel run down the road, comically giving chase to it and then watching it smash into a parked car and damage it. Dont think I could have done much to avoid that one tbh but i could have checked all my wheel nuts were present before setting off.
Some loon tried to steal my wheel by simply removing three wheel nuts and leaving the locking wheel nut on it .
- Bearbonesnorm
- Posts: 23942
- Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 8:53 pm
- Location: my own little world
Re: What's fueling the hate?
No John, I'm talking in the broader sense and not just traffic.All accidents can be avoided as stationary objects dont hit anything so something has to be moving. If we all park up all road accidents end,
May the bridges you burn light your way
Re: What's fueling the hate?
Epics are cool Reg. In an era of snapshot stuff it's good to read more than an Instagram-caption worth.
(Was the guy in Life of Brian called Reg? I mean Eric Idle's character among the JPF wasn't it? And sorry, no intent to derail a good topic..)
(Was the guy in Life of Brian called Reg? I mean Eric Idle's character among the JPF wasn't it? And sorry, no intent to derail a good topic..)
- RIP
- Posts: 9077
- Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2014 7:24 pm
- Location: Surfing The Shores Of Sanity Since 1959
- Contact:
Re: What's fueling the hate?
I always enjoy yours too James - always plenty of food for thought.
(yep - Cleese though
Stan (Idle): I want to have babies.
Reg (Cleese): You want to have babies?!?!
Stan: It's every man's right to have babies if he wants them.
Reg: But ... you can't HAVE babies!
Stan: Don't you oppress me!
Reg: I'm not oppressing you, Stan. You haven't got a womb! Where's the foetus gonna gestate? You gonna keep it in a box?
etc etc etc)
(yep - Cleese though
Stan (Idle): I want to have babies.
Reg (Cleese): You want to have babies?!?!
Stan: It's every man's right to have babies if he wants them.
Reg: But ... you can't HAVE babies!
Stan: Don't you oppress me!
Reg: I'm not oppressing you, Stan. You haven't got a womb! Where's the foetus gonna gestate? You gonna keep it in a box?
etc etc etc)
"My God, Ponsonby, I'm two-thirds of the way to the grave and what have I done?" - RIP
The sign outside the asylum is the wrong way round.....
"At least you got some stories" - James Acaster
The sign outside the asylum is the wrong way round.....
"At least you got some stories" - James Acaster
-
- Posts: 2129
- Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2012 9:39 am
- Location: Southern Cataluña
- Contact:
Re: What's fueling the hate?
Interesting read this, perhaps for those who look beyond the shores of the UK, I can give another perspective.
I've just spent 4 days cycling around the French Pyrenees watching the TdF and generally pootling about. I've had more close passes, blaring horns and general fuckwittery than I've had in the last year in Spain.
I've found Spanish drivers patient, courteous and even encouraging when you're grovelling your way up a big climb. The only exception is during August as there is an influx of French holidaymakers locally who exhibit none of these traits. Strangely other offenders are those from Benelux countries but a Dutch friend once explained this as them not being used to sharing the road with cyclists who generally have their own parallel cycle paths.
It's fair to say that Spain has a much different traffic density to the UK and generally riders don't have to spend their time dodging potholes but there are times that it's a bit embarrassing to be followed for several kilometers by a driver patiently waiting for an opportunity to pass giving you the mandatory 1.5m clearance. This equally applies to lorries, white vans and buses.
Sorry I don't have any solutions to the UK situation but I was genuinely surprised by my French trip, maybe the recent grumpiness of the Gilet Jeune brigade has changed behaviour or possibly living in Spain for nearly 4 years has made me complacent.
I've just spent 4 days cycling around the French Pyrenees watching the TdF and generally pootling about. I've had more close passes, blaring horns and general fuckwittery than I've had in the last year in Spain.
I've found Spanish drivers patient, courteous and even encouraging when you're grovelling your way up a big climb. The only exception is during August as there is an influx of French holidaymakers locally who exhibit none of these traits. Strangely other offenders are those from Benelux countries but a Dutch friend once explained this as them not being used to sharing the road with cyclists who generally have their own parallel cycle paths.
It's fair to say that Spain has a much different traffic density to the UK and generally riders don't have to spend their time dodging potholes but there are times that it's a bit embarrassing to be followed for several kilometers by a driver patiently waiting for an opportunity to pass giving you the mandatory 1.5m clearance. This equally applies to lorries, white vans and buses.
Sorry I don't have any solutions to the UK situation but I was genuinely surprised by my French trip, maybe the recent grumpiness of the Gilet Jeune brigade has changed behaviour or possibly living in Spain for nearly 4 years has made me complacent.
Re: What's fueling the hate?
That's it, Stan was Idle / Reg was Cleese. Not seen it in years. Saw it at local indy cinema ages ago with intro talk by Terry Gilliam, brilliant.
Pistonbroke, interesting point on the Dutch drivers, fair explanation. I did 1600km across France last summer and the only drivers I could've got irate with for bad passes were Dutch, 3 of them. Didn't understand why at the time. Still, very peaceful trip overall. 160km in SE of UK would see more bad passes than that.
Pistonbroke, interesting point on the Dutch drivers, fair explanation. I did 1600km across France last summer and the only drivers I could've got irate with for bad passes were Dutch, 3 of them. Didn't understand why at the time. Still, very peaceful trip overall. 160km in SE of UK would see more bad passes than that.
- fatbikephil
- Posts: 6543
- Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2014 10:51 pm
- Location: Fife
- Contact:
Re: What's fueling the hate?
In terms of road traffic they are always referred to (by the cops and road safety engineers such as me) as crashes or collisions. They aren't accidents as someone is always, always at fault.Bearbonesnorm wrote: ↑Sun Jul 21, 2019 5:34 pm Oh yeah, I like a good accident Reg, many of us wouldn't be here otherwise
No, my point about accidents is that the definition is wrong. I believe that many so called accidents aren't really because they could have been avoided somewhere along the line ... just because you had no intent and you didn't act with malice shouldn't be enough to write something of as an accident. What I take exception to is being told that 'Accidents don't happen' like it's black and white and always someones fault when the truth is, it isn't.
ooh, something I learnt on my course the other day was that there's now an offence of 'driving without consideration to other road users'. Seems to perhaps be a lesser charge than 'due care' and a nod towards anti-social / nobbish behaviour.
Incidentally regarding Stus original post blue badge holders can park on most waiting restrictions legally.....
- whitestone
- Posts: 7868
- Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2014 10:20 am
- Location: Skipton(ish)
- Contact:
Re: What's fueling the hate?
James - last summer we were in France and almost to a man/woman the drivers were courteous to us on our bikes. Even riding across central Paris.
Better weight than wisdom, a traveller cannot carry
- Bearbonesnorm
- Posts: 23942
- Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 8:53 pm
- Location: my own little world
Re: What's fueling the hate?
Yep, he was quite within his rights to park where he did but I believe the abuse didn't stop even after he'd wheeled himself to the door and shown them his badge ... sadly, bell-ends ride bikes too.Incidentally regarding Stus original post blue badge holders can park on most waiting restrictions legally.....
May the bridges you burn light your way