What's fueling the hate?

Bearbonesnorm · Post by **Bearbonesnorm** » Sat Jul 20, 2019 9:16 pm

Here we go 2, 3, 4.

I don't read papers or watch telly but even I have noticed much more anti-cycle 'noise' over the last few months. Now, I've used the word hate here because in some instances that's genuinely what it appears to be.

Anyway, I got to wondering just what's fueling the seeming surge in unpopularity? Is there a big anti-cycling lobby I'm not aware of. Are cyclists just an easy target for peoples frustrations or do people actually have a genuine grievance? ..... I saw a report yesterday of 2 roadies stopping outside a shop to shout abuse at a bloke in a wheelchair (paraplegic if it makes any difference) who'd parked on double yellows to pick his perscription up from the chemist. I personally know the lad in the wheelchair and he's no nob (again, if that makes any difference). I know that's just 2 riders but anyone who witnessed it is now likely going to think everyone on a bike's a tw@t.

In some ways, it's actually quite disturbing because it seems to be happening hand in hand with measures to highlight road safety with regard to cars / bikes - but it's almost as though these measures are having the opposite effect on peoples perception and opion.

I've no answers I've only questions.

whitestone · Post by **whitestone** » Sat Jul 20, 2019 9:30 pm

The three Is: Ignorance; Impatience; Inconsiderate. Basically the antithesis of "Don't be a dick!"

Lazarus · Post by **Lazarus** » Sat Jul 20, 2019 9:34 pm

its just us and them
almost everyone is a car user or driver or owner

not everyone is a cyclist
Its easy to moan about "them" when you are not one of "them"

sadly many road users, irrespective of mode of transport, are nobbers who flout and ignore the law.its the big heavy boxes who kill the most but lets not focus on us when i saw one of them on the PAVEMENT

middleagedmadness · Post by **middleagedmadness** » Sat Jul 20, 2019 9:39 pm

I see it a Lot commuting to work along the cut , and sadly is more from People my age who seem to think it's ok to be going at a fair old whack on shared paths ,no shouting to let people who are walking you are approaching them( I find a bell a bit impersonal much better a pleasant just coming past mate ) just a bit of abuse after they have scared the life out of them ,I'm not saying the other users are in the right as there's tw@ts in all walks of life but it seems the general rule it only takes a couple of ejits on bikes and we are all classed the same ,plus I really don't see the need to be belting along at 20mph this time a year when shared paths are busy with families and the likes, if your late for work leave f@cking earlier
Also there seems to be much more self entitlement about over the last few years

FLV · Post by **FLV** » Sat Jul 20, 2019 9:42 pm

I think its the expectation of privilege.

So many people seem to believe in the moment that what they are doing at the time is the most important thing that needs doing.

Roadies on the road annoyed at cars for being in the way, car drivers annoyed at bikes being in the way, pedestrians annoyed at traffic / roadies. Ramblers annoyed at bikes, mtb riders annoyed at ramblers and their out of control dogs.

Basically, everyone (a lot of people) deem their current activity to be under compromise by the other people in the way.

It only takes one 'group' to start it and the rest of the groups follow due to a change in overall attitude

People are too busy and have forgotten how to live together!

Just my 2p

slarge · Post by **slarge** » Sat Jul 20, 2019 9:58 pm

I don't get it. I've had quite a few people who know I ride a bike say " I hate cyclists", to which my response is "well that says more about you than anyone else", or "you do realise they are just people don't you". Their hatred seems to be based on petty views and what they read or watch.

I'm not sure what to do about it, other than just keep riding my bike and encouraging more people to ride their bikes. Oh, and never buying the daily mail or watching "cyclists are the scourge" programmes or clicking onto websites etc. I do obey the rules as well.

lune ranger · Post by **lune ranger** » Sat Jul 20, 2019 9:59 pm

The conversation needs to steer away from ‘us’ and ‘them’
Most cyclists have legs and are sometimes pedestrians.
Most adult cyclists also drive cars as well.
Some people are just dicks.
If we look for the similarities with have with others not the differences things will go smoother.

redefined_cycles · Post by **redefined_cycles** » Sat Jul 20, 2019 10:27 pm

I remember one of the patients mentioned to one of my managers once (he was/is called Stu and he's Welsh also) during the managers walkround that he hates cyclists (or something of the sort)...

Stus response was "cyclists annoy drivers/cars... cars kill cyclists". That was the end of the convo!

I would agree that theres idiots on both sides of the fence (walkers/drivers/cyclists) and as a bus driver I once developed the 'chicken or egg' theory about us (bus drivers) once... Did the grumpy bus driver create the grumpy passengers... or visa versa. I concluded that it was both ways and the most important thing was for me myself not to become the 'chicken or the egg'.. So I stayed kond and respectful and left before I became grumpy...

I suppose whatever we are (drivers/cyclists etc etc) we must let our etiquette/kindness/goodwill and nicety continue to prevaol. That way hopefully we might even convert some already 'others' to reflect their attitufe and give the other party a chance in future...

When riding roads I just ensure i hold my groumd and at times try to make myaelf look bigger... to traffic (as well as hog the road when required) and not let my anger and frustration get the better of me!

Bearbonesnorm · Post by **Bearbonesnorm** » Sun Jul 21, 2019 9:11 am

I've had quite a few people who know I ride a bike say " I hate cyclists",

Weird, saying that to someone you know cycles, is almost like saying it as a way of joining some 'club'.

The conversation needs to steer away from ‘us’ and ‘them’

Very true. I've never found it a helpful attitude unless your intent is to stir up bad feeling and resentment.

Trouble is, it's a difficult thing to instil given that

I think its the expectation of privilege.

and

there seems to be much more self entitlement about over the last few years

exists and is seemingly becoming more deep rooted with each day.

Something that struck me after more pondering was whether things might be better if groups of riders rode in single file ... hear me out ... I know that two abreast is often considered best practice and causes a smaller (shorter) obstacle on the road but motorists just don't see or understand that concept. In their eyes, you'd cause much less obstruction if cyclists formed an orderly line. It's not really about what's right, it's about perception and that appears to be one of the biggest gripes thrown about.

jameso · Post by **jameso** » Sun Jul 21, 2019 9:26 am

Oddly was thinking about this on a ride yesterday. Cause/effect stuff I think. Nothing actually to do with bikes and all to do with projection, emotive/hate politics and the way the UK doesn't seem to be a very happy place - long hours, stress/space/time pressure, 'gotta do well' pressure from a class society, etc. Whatever the reasons, politics is fuelling it all.

We seem to react emotionally ('we' - our media, news, all of it, not exclusively but we accept it at a level where it's influencial over time). Massive generalisation but there it is. Politicians have seized on this in the last 5 years or so. There is a natural suspicion of outsiders; probably within us all at some point, a tribalism that has it's roots in our past and our way of generalising as a way to make sense of the world. That sometimes comes out as racism yet most of us are able to think and realise the fallacy in that way of thinking.
Problem now is we have politics that enable people to hold a divisive view that is compatible with racism yet is safely separate from it and allowing a defensive position. Brexit isn't racist .. but Will Self was right on the links. "Trump is pro-USA, not a racist". Yeah OK. Politicians have tapped into something deep-rooted and enabled it. Boris Johnson is on that line somewhere. If they weren't complicit with all this they would be able to stand against elements of it - see Boris Johnson's reaction to Trump's 'go back to where you came from' comments vs Angela Merkel's, he couldn't condemn him/it outright. They don't need to be racists themselves but they can use that murky world of distrust, tribalism and emotive policy to further their own cause. Chuck some fuel on it and off they go.

ie, all this is the politics of emotion over reason. Politics like this empowers people whose actions or opinions are emotive rather than reasoned. If you look at the countries where politics of emotion / populism seem to have made progress you also see more hate between groups eg what we experience of the roads. The countries where politics seem to be of reason tend to have good cycle culture (and accepting that the further right, populist etc elements see themselves as reasoned arguments and there's elements of that in most countries).

I'm not sure that's a sound theory but anyway... there are tolerance links. As what I see as the 'politics of stupid' rise, so do the problems that any one group have with other groups. Tolerance is in shorter supply.

The conversation needs to steer away from ‘us’ and ‘them’

I wish we could, but us+them is the exact problem I see causing all this and it's not going away any time soon.

belugabob · Post by **belugabob** » Sun Jul 21, 2019 9:31 am

Bearbonesnorm wrote: ↑Sun Jul 21, 2019 9:11 am ....
Something that struck me after more pondering was whether things might be better if groups of riders rode in single file ... hear me out ... I know that two abreast is often considered best practice and causes a smaller (shorter) obstacle on the road but motorists just don't see or understand that concept. In their eyes, you'd cause much less obstruction if cyclists formed an orderly line. It's not really about what's right, it's about perception and that appears to be one of the biggest gripes thrown about.

I see your point but, (ignoring London commuting) most motorist/cyclist interaction don't involve groups (at least not more than 2 or 3) so I'd say that the single/double file thing wouldn't be the biggest gripe - it's just that entitlement thing (You don't pay road tax/insurance/licence fees/training costs etc. but I DO!)

I do agree with the us/them thing - we should focus on good/bad behaviour, instead of membership of some arbitrary group

lune ranger · Post by **lune ranger** » Sun Jul 21, 2019 9:32 am

I wonder if the proliferation of road sportives is adding to the conflict is some areas.
Around where I live at this time of the year there’s one every other weekend or so it feels.
There are more than a few riders on these events who act like they are on closed roads.
On the other hand there are drivers who take the p1ss overtaking.
I have to admit to being super frustrated by the last one that happened. Driving through a continuous stretch of riders strung out in ones or twos over 20 miles of narrow country roads was just about as much as I could take.

voodoo_simon · Post by **voodoo_simon** » Sun Jul 21, 2019 9:33 am

Perception is a funny one.

When I had driving lessons and took the tests etc, every other road user was called a ‘hazard’, now if that doesn’t give the driver a superior complex...

Can’t help but think it was the wrong choice of words calling other road users hazards, sets a bad example for when people have passed.

Anyways, from experience I’d have to say that the majority of road users are fine, I probably get a bad experience from a mixture of road users about once or twice a week (some are genuine mistakes, others are just twats), not bad for someone who commutes on their bike 5 days a week for the last 13/14 years

Obviously if the roads were as bad as some people make them out to be, I wouldn’t commute on them

redefined_cycles · Post by **redefined_cycles** » Sun Jul 21, 2019 9:55 am

lune ranger wrote: ↑Sun Jul 21, 2019 9:32 am I wonder if the proliferation of road sportives is adding to the conflict is some areas.
Around where olive at this time of the year there’s one every other weekend or so it feels.
There are more than a few riders on these events who act like they are on closed roads.
On the other hand there are drivers who take the p1ss overtaking.
I have to admit to being super frustrated by the last one that happened. Driving through a continuous stretch of riders strung out in ones or twos over 20 miles of narrow country roads was just about as much as I could take.

Yeah... this regular sportive culture (and especially what u describe) can be frustrating... Hope I don't get lynched, but I HATE these crappy closed road events... Thankfully there's not many around up where I live but it really is taking the P when getting around for drivers starts becoming like being in a maize... Bloody cyclists (

)

Bearbonesnorm · Post by **Bearbonesnorm** » Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:02 am

at least not more than 2 or 3

Yes but on narrowish or twisty roads, even 2 riders side by side is enough to upset people especially if they're chatting (as that appears to imply that they're not paying full attention).

I'll not copy it all James but I do think you're on to something. When I initially asked 'what's fueling it' it did seem to me that while not a direct campaign, certain aspects of the 'great and good' did seem quite happy to let things spiral ........... divided we fall perhaps?

Something else which I wonder might be adding fuel to the 'us / them' side of things is the increase in dash / helmet cams. I was on a driving awareness course last week (don't ask, really) and there were a number of people who hadn't been 'caught' by the police but had been 'grassed up' by other road users with video footage. I heard a few comments about 'bloody cyclists having cameras' (although no one there had actually been reported by a cyclist)

In my view, allowing other users to carry out the job of the police is always going to cause issues as spite can easily be brought into play.

ericrobo · Post by **ericrobo** » Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:21 am

Too many rats in a basket and they start biting one another.... ?

Like Spike (Milligan) once said about walking down Oxford Street in London, nobody looks at anybody else... if you do catch eyes with someone they might bite you...

Everybody needs a CERTAIN amount of personal space, and if that’s compromised funny things begin to happen...

Maybe that’s what we’re seeing here ?

But surely not in Wales ? If so it must be the ‘morphonic resonance’ syndrome kicking in .

What d’ya think ?

(don’t bite, I’m sensitive)

ScotRoutes · Post by **ScotRoutes** » Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:40 am

I'm not seeing/hearing/experiencing any of this. Most folk I know who cycle also drive. I know lots of drivers who cycle. The area around me is full of cyclists and thousands of folk come here, with their bikes, on holiday.

slarge · Post by **slarge** » Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:53 am

I do think the media have a huge part to play. There are constant references to "Cyclists" as though they are an object or a different group of people, but rarely is a car driver referred to as a motorist or something that implies they are not a person. The media does seem to segmentise (is that a word) different groups of people, and this is self perpetuating (maybe as racism, sexism, ageism, and all the other ...ism's are now outlawed, this separate group of people called cyclists is now fair game....).

Having said all that, I commute most days about 16 miles each way, and of the hundred or so cars (and drivers) that go past me the vast majority are considerate. I guess only 1 stupid thing happens each week. Also, if I commute in the car every day, I end up being incredibly frustrated and stressed by the end of the week - so imagine that multiplied by the thousands of people driving cars every day. If only everyone rode a bike to de-stress it would make travel a much more pleasant experience!

jameso · Post by **jameso** » Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:00 am

Rats in baskets, yup. On the other hand, in general my perception is that I'm getting more space on the roads these days. Maybe people are more aware of good overtaking practice. Maybe I'm also avoiding the worst roads, might be that I don't dress like a typical mamil sportive type. But I see far more spacious overtaking than I did 5 to 8 years back.

So perhaps the media clickbait atagonistic view isn't the reality, it just skews how we all see it?

Lazarus · Post by **Lazarus** » Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:15 am

I heard a few comments about 'bloody cyclists having cameras' (although no one there had actually been reported by a cyclist)

Sums it up sadly as they just want someone to blame [ clearly not their own substandard driving that has led to this intervention] and they blame"them" even though it was one of "us" that "grassed" them up. You cannot reason with folk this detached from facts and personal responsibility so i dont bother

I'm not seeing/hearing/experiencing any of this.

But you live in a rural area where i assume traffic jams and commuting hell are a rare/non existent thing.

Sheer volume of traffic , where everyone feels their progress is impeded, is what leads to most folk jumping red lights, not giving way at junctions etc
On my drive there is a green light you have to give way at - that is how bad it is you are on green and they are still going - I have given up reporting it to the police..
However i cannot grumble as i get one bad 3/4 mile stretch on my commute, 13 miles off road then a big wide barely used dual carriageway where "punishment passes" are rare - however when they do occur they happen at 50 mph.

The dogs and their owners on the shared use path are the biggest hazard as they appear from bushes and trees and the owners seem to think i have a six sense about whether they do or they do not have a dog,. The only safe response to this is to limit my speed to 10 mph [ two crashes taught me this] rather than get angry at them when this inevitable event happens

RIP · Post by **RIP** » Sun Jul 21, 2019 1:32 pm

Interesting. I would think (or optimistically, "hope"!) that actual "hate" is a small percentage of the situation and varies from that to "mild frustration".

I blame thatch. No, hang on, not the reeds-based bucolic country cottage roof-covering material. No that would be silly. I blame Thatch (" my name's Ben Elton, goodnight"). And Murdoch. And Dacre. Thatch encouraged the self-centred "no such thing as society" and "loadsa money" culture/outlook which has continued to this day, and the Press love stirring up a good fight as others have said above.

Add to that an increase in population, an increase in the "speed of life", an increase in different viewpoints; then some people perceive their physical AND mental space as "invaded" ( space invaders

) . They've lost control of their situations and feel powerless so they start to exert what little power they have left more strongly but over "weaker"/vulnerable individuals (eg drivers over bikers) ( hence the Press and others winding us all up about "taking back control" - it's impossible now, too much Corporate or Governmental power, reduce one and you get more of the other - small people can never win and from now on will have minimal control over anything. We're being sold a gigantic lie. Unless you totally step away from main-stream society perhaps ).

Further add the possibility that most people are now far far removed from their "environment" and surroundings - whether out of fear or corporate/governmental/societal coercion - headphones on all the time, double-glazing, total separation from the means & responsibility of goods and food production (click on Amazon for anything you "want", buy your dead food animals in a plastic tray without having to kill them yourself etc). Cars are now sealed boxes – very quiet inside, tinted windows, very safe (for the occupants at least), too easy to use. Add to that drivers being told “there is a war on motorists”, encouraging a Mr Toad attitude, and road builders/planners being totally unaccountable (nobody ever says, “OK that’s enough roads thanks, you’re all sacked”) resulting in an overly car-biased culture and society.

All this adds up to less “responsibility” – both to oneself and others. People want “rights” without obligations. I saw my neighbour drive his car 200 yards to Morrisons this morning simply to buy some bread rolls. He could/should have walked, saving fuel, energy, congestion, noise, etc etc. Nope, he just wanted what he wanted and asap. To be fair there is an increasing backlash against this type of thing - young people have much less interest in "private motorised transport", and some planners are at least attempting to redress the balance.

There will always be a small minority of “haters” in any walk of life – so that’s the drivers and cyclists who are pathologically unable/unwilling to be any other way – you WILL get carved up by them or be stuck behind them. Drivers hating cyclists will be hating EVERY other road user. Less extreme drivers/cyclists may cause problems not "deliberately": because they’re just having a bad day; because they’re literally desperate to get to a job to earn money to buy their next meal or pair of shoes; or at the other end of the scale because they are desperate to get to a job to earn money to waste on their next patio-heater / leaf-blower / driveway-jetwasher / pink-half-of-the-drainpipe.

So, “free will” is not that simple. I’d say most people try and stay sane and calm but a lot is stacked against them these days. Our pace of technology, movement, and communication has run ahead of our evolutionary ability to handle it all.
Many drivers can’t make decisions fast enough for their speed – hence close overtaking of cycles etc. Conversely many roadie cyclists have absolutely no idea how to communicate with other road users – apart from the single/double file thing, much worse and more of a wind-up for drivers is they never look behind, never get eye contact, never signal. They don’t communicate. Riding double-file is rarely a problem if the bikers acknowledge the driver behind them - even just a tipped finger, "sorry mate I empathise, but you'll soon be on your way again" etc etc.

Stu’s example of the roadie and wheelchair might have been a genuine mistake too – that’s another reason. The biker objected to a yellow-line-parker (I “hate” them too

;-) ) but realised too late the reason why.

On balance I’m on the cyclists “side” – apart from the aforementioned poor communication with other roads users. Too much is stacked against us – oh, there’s me doing an “us” / “them”, ho hum

.

fatbikephil · Post by **fatbikephil** » Sun Jul 21, 2019 1:57 pm

Traffic congestion? A large proportion of society need (or have been convinced they need) to use their cars to access normal services. Traffic delays are at their peak currently having risen to this level over many years. Bikes are therefore just seen as another thing causing congestion (in their minds) and therefore a target for their frustration. The media just pick up on this on a slow news day knowing it will get plenty of hits as so many people relate to it.

The media need taking to task on this as its totally f***ed up- example:

Last year some guy on a bike sans brakes in London collides with a ped and the ped ends up a fatality. This makes headline news country wide and the story runs for many days during the court case etc.

Same week in Elgin (nice wee place in Moray, NE Scotland) a youf in a car overtakes a line of stationary traffic in the town at 50+ the car at the front turns right youf's car goes onto footway and kills small child right in front of his Dad. This makes local news only. Car drivers killing pedestrians on footways is actually a significant problem and there are many more instances of this than reported cyclist / ped collisions of any type. But does it make the news? Is there a national campaign?

RIP · Post by **RIP** » Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:04 pm

Yes HT it's interesting this double-standards or whatever you might call it. On the face of it the Press and people's reactions to your example (and there are many more of just that type) are totally skewed. Why? Maybe it is just the Press - surely 99% of normal people will form a sensible view of which was "worse"? Those examples make one want to hire a load of advertising hoardings across the country with each one showing the cyclist/ped story/reaction on one side and the yoof/child one on the other. There'd be some sort of statement or question underneath pointing out the lunacy of it. The language used in these cases is also interesting - car crashes are always "accidents", cyclist crashes are usually "crashes". Again I think it comes back to the massive pro-car bias - nothing must be seen to be taking away "motorists" "freedom" or to be criticising them. An example, years ago a land rover (*) drove off the M62 (A64?) onto the East Coast railway causing the predictable result. Despite the driver falling asleep at the wheel - in no way an accident - all sorts of rubbish and excuses were peddled - why wasn't the railway fenced better, why don't the trains have crashed-car-detectors etc etc. A cyclist hits a pedestrian and the cyclist is ALWAYS "reckless".

(*) Oh! Now I've unconsciously fallen for the propaganda myself!! I should have said a DRIVER not a VEHICLE - how can a "car" cause an "accident". But of course the Press always say "car accident" and "reckless cyclist". Subtle.

Lazarus · Post by **Lazarus** » Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:59 pm

Despite the driver falling asleep at the wheel - in no way an accident - all sorts of rubbish and excuses were peddled

Unless he actually tried to fall asleep, rather than tried to stay awake when too tired* ,then it was an accident.

It also highlights the other problem all drivers have driven when tired or when dazzled by the sun or whatever so they can "understand" why a driver would do this and it "not be their fault" [ it is their fault ]. They dont see this with cycling as they dont do it and think anyone who would is a lout etc.
Road users are people and some will drive responsibly and some will drive at 50mph in a 30zone overtaking cars and crash into pedestrians. the problem is always the people, not the mode of transport, though some are much more dangerous than others due to the higher speeds involved and weights .

Re the media i can never quite decide if they hate us or they report it because its so uncommon.

* I am not saying this was an unwise decision or this made it not their fault.

middleagedmadness · Post by **middleagedmadness** » Sun Jul 21, 2019 3:15 pm

Its not just people want rights Reg ,I think people just want, full stop ,not caring about the consequences ,it's just a want society ,, which in turn is making everything disposable , the tribalism jameso mentioned is true of all races ,not just you Brits ,lived in Spain for many years , didn't live with the expats and didn't work for the expats , lived with the Spanish and worked for vw and then Scania ,I wasn't accepted by the Spanish for months to them I was a "giri" ,and was hated by the expats for accepting the Spanish culture , we moan about Diversity and people not intergrating with our society (which is a problem) but lookin other countries where we have settled and see how many of us intergrate with their culture ,I can say it's not many, which then causes lack of understanding which in turn ,turns to a us and them situation

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