Why are Grand Departs only for racers....?

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gairym
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Why are Grand Departs only for racers....?

Post by gairym »

The idea seems to come up fairly frequently(ish) on here that the grand depart / mass start of any given bikepacking event is for those who are 'racing' and that those who plan to 'tour' (not happy with that wording so maybe let's call it more 'not racing') should go another time and ITT the route

See the below as an example from another thread:
jameso wrote: Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:23 amThe guys enjoying longer dinners and regular shorter days. No reason why not, though I wonder why you'd line up at a grand depart and not give 100% all the way to the end (or scratch if you decide you'd enjoy touring it more, that's a good/respectable call).
I'm not one to ever trouble the pointy end of an event but I do really like the social aspects of riding with/near/amongst a bunch of like-minded fools over multiple days whilst bikepacking and so I have to disagree with this assertion (with the idea as a whole, not specifically with James - even though I quoted his example).

What do people think in general? I just don't get why the mass starts should be more for those who are going to bugger off into the distance and be less sociable than for those who like to ride in proximity to lots of others doing the same thing at the same time and have a thoroughly nice time whilst doing it?

I've ridden the Tuscany Trail five years in a row now and it's precisely this mentality that I enjoy. I ride my bike, all day every day, putting in significant effort but by no means thrashing myself to death and all the while I'm enjoying nice meals, local wines (evenings only obviously) and the constant chat and banter of the other participants who happen to loosely match my pace.

As far as I can see there's less benefit of the mass start for the 5, 10, 15 or so people flogging themselves to within an inch of their lives out front on their own.

Not for a second, suggesting that they shouldn't participate in any grand depart but out of the two groups (racers vs tourers) I think the latter have arguably more to offer to and gain from mass starting events.

Just a thought and my two cents.

Please feel free to poo poo the idea as I'm genuinely interested in hearing other folks opinions.....
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Re: Why are Grand Departs only for racers....?

Post by Bearbonesnorm »

I'm thinking Torino-Nice. Group start / no racing?
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Re: Why are Grand Departs only for racers....?

Post by jameso »

I guess that's why the TNR is what it is, a social w/o the racing stuff attached. My comment was with the TD or similar in mind and (as is often the way) from my own often-narrow view on it, ie I wouldn't go to a 'race' to tour. I'd feel out of place, or I'd end up racing anyway. People racing past me thinking they'd 'beaten' me would bug me- and that's silly I know. Or, I just wouldn't want to be in a competitive event when riding for other reasons myself .
I have no problem with anyone touring a race event though. Well, a little, in that I think some races should be respected as that and swelling the numbers but not intending to race waters down the event a bit? But that is a narrow irrational view and I wouldn't look down on or judge anyone for it, it's only about keeping an event 'what it is'.

I suppose my Q on this is, why is pretty much every event competitive? If it lists a finish time or order it's competitive and people will race, yet it seems like many(most?) aren't that bothered by the race aspect. Sounds like Tuscany Trail has that touring group thing pretty well covered - almost to the point where it sounds odd to hear of people talking about who won it. I like the sound of it, a lot : )
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Re: Why are Grand Departs only for racers....?

Post by middleagedmadness »

Never done a grand depart as I don't race but I always class any event which states grand depart as a "competition" hence if it's limited spaces I do believe that racers should be given preference ,don't get me wrong I wish there were more events with WRT ethos but I also like to get away on my own (my house is very loud :lol: ).A nice week long event would go down nicely though
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Re: Why are Grand Departs only for racers....?

Post by Lazarus »

the grand depart is a race and if you enter a race you try to do it as fast as you can . If not just ride it whenever you want

If you want to do a social group ride of say the Highland 550 then organise one -I imagine it will catch on.

Personally I generally avoid both types because crowded* countryside and trails is not my ideal bike ride.


* a very relative term considering the often small numbers taking part
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Re: Why are Grand Departs only for racers....?

Post by gairym »

Lazarus wrote: Mon Jul 08, 2019 4:56 pm the grand depart is a race and if you enter a race you try to do it as fast as you can . If not just ride it whenever you want
That's exactly my point. It's not.

The Tour Divide is a 'challenge' against oneself as clearly stated on the website.

The Highland Trail 550 is still not a race but Alan has decided that it essentially is a race in all but name and that's fair enough - he controls who starts and so avoids the whole issue.

BUT.....many of the other events are simply not actually races and so I don't see how people came to the conclusion that you have and why?

Who decided that there being a group start means it's a race? I didn't get that memo and I don't buy into that mentality.
middleagedmadness wrote: Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:52 pm Never done a grand depart as I don't race but I always class any event which states grand depart as a "competition" hence if it's limited spaces I do believe that racers should be given preference ,don't get me wrong I wish there were more events with WRT ethos...
Again, where and when did this get decided?

In my world there are loads and loads of events with the 'WRT ethos' as I consider every event not specifically declared (or at least widely regarded) a race to be a nice friendly open gathering which will have both ends of the velocity spectrum represented and likely everywhere in between too.
jameso wrote: Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:40 pmI suppose my Q on this is, why is pretty much every event competitive? If it lists a finish time or order it's competitive and people will race, yet it seems like many(most?) aren't that bothered by the race aspect.
Are they competitive? Or is that your take based on previous event experience etc...

Until I noticed the attitude/opinion that prompted this thread becoming more and more the norm I considered everything to be a nice personal challenge unless expressly stated (TCR for example - not for me, easy!)

I know that if I turn up for the BB200 that even though it too is certainly not a race the 'ethos' is to get your ass around it as quickly as you can and so I'll only enter again if/when I feel the pull of that sort of challenge but I still feel/felt that these type of events were in the minority until very recently (and only now because of an attitude shift not a change in the events themselves).
jameso wrote: Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:40 pmSounds like Tuscany Trail has that touring group thing pretty well covered - almost to the point where it sounds odd to hear of people talking about who won it. I like the sound of it, a lot : )
Yeah, the year before last (I think) someone said "did you hear so-and-so has just won in 1 day and xx hours" to which I replied "really, I think that I've won as I'm enjoying 3.5 more days than them bikepacking through Tuscany" :-bd

Like I said, in not trying to argue with people about it all but I am a bit perplexed by a growing number of folks who've either decided or been told (and if so by who?) that grand departs mean racing and I think that this concept is worth examining.
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Re: Why are Grand Departs only for racers....?

Post by ScotRoutes »

Echoing much of the above...

I thought Grand Depart was a phrase borrowed from road racing.

For the TDR, doesn't R = Race? Similarly the HT550 is a route, the HTR is a race (at least that's how I've always seen it). Event organisers select entrants and (to keep using the HTR as an example) expect to be selecting the "cream" of the entries.

However.... I can completely see the point in having a non-race Group Start for the vaguely sociable aspect, though the variety of pace might mean only meeting other participants at the start or very intermittently.
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Re: Why are Grand Departs only for racers....?

Post by middleagedmadness »

I can't answer where or why I presume grand depart equals race ,maybe it's because whenever there's a grand depart it's normally limited numbers and prioritized for the quicker ones amongst us ,in every sport, walk of life there's people who like to be competitive against others it's not for me anymore as I can't be arsed with the training any more, I still like to challenge myself but not as in competing against others,maybe I think "grand depart " is a way of getting around all the legalities that comes with the word race ,who knows ,for me these days going further than I've been ,or doing something outside my comfort zone is enough of a challenge
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Re: Why are Grand Departs only for racers....?

Post by whitestone »

Each event/ride/route takes on its own ethos, whether that's by design due to how the originator/organiser plans it or just how it works out because of the attitude of those taking part can be hard to determine.

This weekend's JennRide had a mass start/Grand départ but there was no way it was a race, if you wanted a "time" then it was down to you to record it*. Rich will no doubt confirm/deny it but it's more to generate a "feel" to the whole proceedings since you were able to set off when you want as indeed we and a good number of others did.

Remember the TDR is the "race" version of the GDMBR. Being at the GD start does get you the atmosphere that a "tour" or ITT at any other time would not. In this case "race" just means you intend to push yourself. I'm not sure if TrackLeaders did it this year but in previous years after the first week or so if you hadn't maintained a suitable daily mileage your dot was relegated to touring mode.

* There was a signing out/in sheet but that's more so Rich knows if there's anyone still out riding.
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Re: Why are Grand Departs only for racers....?

Post by Bearbonesnorm »

Very interesting this - I do wonder whether maybe group start / mass start / everyone setting off together is perhaps intrinsic with our greater concept or natural understanding of a 'race'? I purposely removed the group start element from the BB200 in an effort to help eliminate the notion of 'race'.

I think group starts imply a degree of urgency to those taking part, maybe a knock on effect of that is to switch everyone into 'race mode'. A staggered or 'please yourself' start seems to have the opposite effect. Saying that, the WRT is a mass start of sorts but maybe the fact that people disperse in all directions diffuses any racing notion or perhaps everyone's being at it long enough that they know the score?
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Re: Why are Grand Departs only for racers....?

Post by ScotRoutes »

Bearbonesnorm wrote: Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:21 pm Very interesting this - I do wonder whether maybe group start / mass start / everyone setting off together is perhaps intrinsic with our greater concept or natural understanding of a 'race'? I purposely removed the group start element from the BB200 in an effort to help eliminate the notion of 'race'.
Time Trials are still races, yet everyone sets off at a different time. However, I think you have something. What's more, folk who think they might be slower have the opportunity to start first so they don't have that sinking feeling of seeing everyone else shoot off into the distance at the starters gun :lol:

Actually, that bring me back to an event I've been helping with. It's called Ride The North and it's a two-day, 160 mile road event in the NE of Scotland. It is most definitely NOT a race and folk are set off in "waves" with the slowest group first. There are no timing chips, no publicised finishing times.
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Re: Why are Grand Departs only for racers....?

Post by fatbikephil »

There is no requirement to race, just to follow the self supported rules (and remember, they aren't races but impromptu gatherings of a group of people who just happen to be riding the same route :wink: ). People who choose to 'race' do so for their own reasons, not because they have to.
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Re: Why are Grand Departs only for racers....?

Post by RIP »

Bearbonesnorm wrote: Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:21 pm A staggered .......start seems to have the opposite effect.
Dunno, conversely can't a race have a non-grand-depart staggered start at regular, or whatever, intervals? Or is it not a race then?
Bearbonesnorm wrote: Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:21 pm Saying that, the WRT is a mass start of sorts but maybe the fact that people disperse in all directions diffuses any racing notion or perhaps everyone's being at it long enough that they know the score?
The WRT scattering-to-the-four-winds is a big part of the attraction and amusement for me. Yes it probably does diffuse any racing notions! Although I think it was 2016 when just about everybody steamed off up the forest track behind your place at the same time, and that certainly had the air of a race about it at the speed we were going :smile: .
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Re: Why are Grand Departs only for racers....?

Post by postierich »

The signing in and out sheet was purely for the benefit of riders so they could find out if the friends were still out on the trails or in the Brewery,I never even checked the sheet I just go on vehicles left in the field, the start this year had a 50/50 split with people leaving early so they could chill a bit more nice to have a mass start good for the photos . Not a fan of early starts hence the 9.30 departure gives the local traders some trade in Breakfasts.

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Re: Why are Grand Departs only for racers....?

Post by Bearbonesnorm »

Yeah, signing in / out sheet is a bit of a red herring. WRT has one but it's purely a means of knowing who is / isn't back.
Dunno, conversely can't a race have a non-grand-depart staggered start at regular, or whatever, intervals?
No it obviously can Reg. Let's take the TT for example, riders set of at 10 sec intervals but not many people would describe it as anything other than a race. My point was more about peoples perceptions and how a group start seems to signal something within us that indicates we're now entering a racing situation.
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Re: Why are Grand Departs only for racers....?

Post by jameso »

Are they competitive? Or is that your take based on previous event experience etc...
Very little experience really, I've only done a few events. But if they have a timing chip or publish rider's finish positions I'd say there's an element of racing and that's probably skewed by my own view that there is a lot of racing focus in cycling. Too much imo, but maybe less than there was 10 years ago. Thinking about it there are a few more events that aren't timed or have more of a brevet attitude. And it's good to know more people don't see a timed event as a call to race, I'd be more inclined to ride those events in that case.

You're right that the TD is a personal challenge, though I think many that set off at the GD are looking to push themselves via the race element. Not all and it's not a given requirement, just how I always perceived it. In some ways the solo ITT seems odd to me, all the stress of race pace with no-one to race, a good way to spoil a nice tour .. Good job we're all different :grin:

Maybe some of this is about personal challenges and how it's (or, we're) affected by the performance of others. All a load of ego-related bollocks really isn't it, as well as a natural thing to do and a great way of having big, unique experiences.
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Re: Why are Grand Departs only for racers....?

Post by Bearbonesnorm »

Good job we're all different :grin:
Yep, it's just in some folks character. They treat every ride as a race or as training for a race. Personally, I'd find no pleasure in that but a few obviously do.

Also worth considering the cachet that a 'race' has for many taking part and for potential sponsors / spectators ... be honest, how many folk would be drawn to Trackleaders to watch a group of dots bimbling about :wink:
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Re: Why are Grand Departs only for racers....?

Post by whitestone »

The thing is all those overlapping dots on your screen are in reality several kilometres apart and out of sight of one another. Unless the riders check Trackleaders or have someone text them then they won't know otherwise.

On the HT550 Jenny Graham passed me at around Melgarve bothy on the way up the Corrieyairack Pass. Unknowingly I actually passed her twice before catching her up at Fort Augustus on the return leg. Even though the ride/race felt quite sociable for something like 50% of the route (time and distance) I was alone and no sign of other riders.

I've done some routes as ITTs, just a different way of approaching things, some have time limits so there's "pressure" there.
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Re: Why are Grand Departs only for racers....?

Post by Asposium »

I’m doing the tour aotearoa next year; it has a simple “anti-race” rule
In a 24 hour period one can ride a maximum of 16 hours
Also says no less than 10 days, though 300km a day sounds epic. That said, someone did the route in 10 days and 1 second last year.
TA seems to have a different ethos to many other events.
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Re: Why are Grand Departs only for racers....?

Post by Bearbonesnorm »

I’m doing the tour aotearoa next year; it has a simple “anti-race” rule
In a 24 hour period one can ride a maximum of 16 hours
Also says no less than 10 days, though 300km a day sounds epic. That said, someone did the route in 10 days and 1 second last year.
TA seems to have a different ethos to many other events.
Isn't that done from the angle of safety / sleep deprivation?
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Re: Why are Grand Departs only for racers....?

Post by Lazarus »

The Tour Divide is a 'challenge' against oneself as clearly stated on the website
the same website that states the winner for each of these yearly challenges ?

Clearly some riders are riding to win - its not really an unsupported sportive is it?
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Re: Why are Grand Departs only for racers....?

Post by gairym »

Lazarus wrote: Mon Jul 08, 2019 9:50 pm
The Tour Divide is a 'challenge' against oneself as clearly stated on the website
the same website that states the winner for each of these yearly challenges ?

Clearly some riders are riding to win - its not really an unsupported sportive is it?
Fair enough, they do indeed list the fastest times.

I'm not trying to say that nobody does or nobody should treat it as a race. I'm more interested in how/why it's becoming the norm to assume that the racing mindset and ethics should be applied to any bikepacking event with a group start (again, ones which do not specifically claim to be races).

It unnecessarily excludes a large section of the bikepacking community for no gain (imho).

I think there's room for both and certainly wouldn't try to tell people they shouldn't personally give it everything they've got to go at fast as they can but.....to refer to people helping each other out during a dangerous
river crossing and not DQF themselves from a friendly bikepacking event as 'cheating' is something I just can't relate to in the slightest.

If someone at the pointy end of an event uses a sail to coast across a big flat section of a route then clearly their time shouldn't be entered onto the super serious 'winners' list but if Johnny/Janey Midpack had that idea during a nice ride with other people then fair play to a moment of genius. I've got no interest in denying the other 99% of his/her bike ride because of it.

If/when the friendly and helpful aspect of bikepacking is no longer present then I'll happily and gladly move on to pastures new as I don't want any part of events where I can't offer a competitor I'm chatting with a haribo for fear of rendering their trip void in the eyes of some.

We should be competing to have the most fun and longest lasting great memories not for the smallest chronological number compared to others, nobody gets happy doing that (again, that's my take, not saying everyone should think that)!
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Re: Why are Grand Departs only for racers....?

Post by ScotRoutes »

ones which do not specifically claim to be races
The problem here is that many of the events that are races specifically avoid mentioning that due to legal reasons. The truth is that if times are published some/many will choose to race anyway.

Overall, I agree with your point. I'm not a racer. A challenging, but social, event would be more up my street. I'm considering the Autumn group start of the Cairngorms Loop as a few folk on here have made it clear they are definitely not racing it either. Given the popularity of the Jennride I'd say there's more room for that approach in addition to the racing too.
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Re: Why are Grand Departs only for racers....?

Post by gairym »

The Cairngorms loop thingy sounds great.

Maybe we're just at a point where events will split into one of the two categories but until now I assumed both factions were equally represented and so am resistant to the increasingly serious racing mindset that seems to be taking over.

I'm all for more events that simply celebrate the joy of riding a bike over big daft distances with a load of others just because it's a bloody good thing to do :-bd
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Re: Why are Grand Departs only for racers....?

Post by sean_iow »

gairym wrote: Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:53 am
Lazarus wrote: Mon Jul 08, 2019 9:50 pm I'm not trying to say that nobody does or nobody should treat it as a race. I'm more interested in how/why it's becoming the norm to assume that the racing mindset and ethics should be applied to any bikepacking event with a group start (again, ones which do not specifically claim to be races).
Is the issue here that due to the legality of 'racing' that the events don't say in black and white that they are races? I have assumed that any event that lists the finishers in time order is a race, e.g. HT550, Dales Divide etc.

But there are other events with a 'group start' which don't list the times and these are not races, e.g. Dorset Gravel Dash, Moors 100, Jen Ride.

Perhaps there should be more 'social' group start events. But is there the demand for them? The Moors 100 struggled for entries last year, although now I've ridden on the Moors I'm adding it to my must do list as for me that part of the Dales Divide was the highlight and I'd like to ride there at a social pace.

The events on the Self Supported website are all races? The site lists the rules for racing and I assume that people who submit a route to it for inclusion do so as they want people to ride them as fast as they can and post a time.

As has been said, there's nothing to stop people organising a non-racing group start on any of the routes, but whether you'd see more people this way is hard to tell. On the HT550 last year there were 60 ish starters. Most of them finished between 4 and 7 days so there was a 3 day spread of people along the route by day 4. I finished in 5 but after the first day I only saw 5 other racers as the field spread out and for my last 2 days I only bumped into 2 who happened to be the pizza place at Fort A. Having spoken to people who have toured the route some of them take 10+ days. So if the same number started, and assuming the fastest finished in 5 days then by day 5 there's a 5+ day spread so I think you'd be less likely to see other people. So the best way to get to ride socially would be just for a group of friends to organise to ride the route together, which is what happens. When I rode the HT550 I met several groups who were touring it. It turns out when you ask around and speak to locals/shop keepers that many more people ride the route than do the group start but they are under the radar as they're not racing it and not on trackleaders.
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