The Letter of the Law

[voodoo_simon]

Caffeine used to be banned by the UCI but they realised it was daft.

Alan Baxter famously lost his Olympic medal due to Vicks... Apparently the American version contained a banned substance whilst the UK version he was used to didn’t

Rules to me need context, hence why I’ve questioned who set them. If you know the rule setter is a black and white person, then the rules will be easier to follow than say it was set by someone who was chilled and allowed common sense to prevail. Case point highlighted that Bob and Colin can’t agree on whether helping someone to cross a river is within the rules or not.

For what it’s worth, I enjoy the social side of events and so will always offer my sweets etc around, help a rider with spares or tool lends etc and would accept help in the good grace it was offered. That’s just me though.

I’ve lent my tools out at the start of the race, no harm in that (as the race hadn’t started) except if I didn’t have it, then the rider would have had to go into town, wait for the shops to open and then arrive at the start late. At one point does the no-helping rule start...?

[voodoo_simon]

If I was running the event then you'd be a disqualified, see my interpretation of the rules above, sorry It's probably a good job I don't run an event or it would be impossible for anyone to get classified as a finisher as I'm bound to think of something that has upset me and think of a way to dqf them under the rules

l

Id say your rules would possible be the easiest to follow Sean, strict and to the point. No grey area with your interpretations.

[Bearbonesnorm]

If I was running the event then you'd be a disqualified,

You're harsh you are

I suppose in my mind I viewed it as simply using initiative to overcome a problem. That QR would have being available to any rider who asked .... although whether they'd have wanted to part with £20 for a sh1te, rusty skewer is another matter However, you're right Sean - if the absolute letter of the law was uphold, it would be a DNF, good job my knee prevented me from confronting that dilema.

[whitestone]

Not in any sort of event but some years ago Cath and I went on a guided MTB trip to Peru. About half the group were from Europe and half from North America. The differences in attitudes to medication was startling: the American contingent took and were open about taking daily doses of Ibuprofren and other painkillers. None of them talked about having any long term condition that might require it, it was just to deal with minor aches and pains that the Europeans just handled as part of riding a bike.

There's a podcast on the BBC site at the moment about rest and recovery. The interviewee notes that some pro-level athletes have unintentionally fallen foul of WADA because some vitamin supplements (expensive pee) contain trace amounts of banned substances.

Perhaps a good guide to whether something's OK or not is whether you'd hide the fact or not. Hiding or even denying it is probably a reasonable indication that you yourself think it's not OK.

[slarge]

It could be argued that Stu buying a QR off some poor (now less poor) member of the public made that person a commercial outlet...... (so any kit borrowing is OK if you buy it)

For me the Bob Graham distilled ruleset into 4 bullet points make sense. There was an ethos discussed in trailquesting circles years ago where it was stated that "don't do anything that if you saw someone else do it you would complain". So, if you were racing an ITT and saw someone give another racer a tiestrap, then would you grumble at the end if either person beat you?

I would have a grumble about spares etc, but things like water is different - is filling up from a stream any different to filling up from a tap? (apart from the "annoying the homeowner if everyone did it" aspect). I filled up from someone's tap when I did the TCW double - he was only too happy to let me (thought I was mad, but maybe that helped). But there was only me and not 60 other riders hot on my heels. Does that make a difference?

We can get a bit caught up in the rules. The whole thing about these long events is not about the podiums (even though they are nice!), but about challenging yourself......

[sean_iow]

Caffeine used to be banned by the UCI but they realised it was daft.

If I had a condition that required the drug I'm referring to I cant see how I'd want to be doing a bike packing race so I can only think they took it for a performance advantage.

I’ve lent my tools out at the start of the race, no harm in that (as the race hadn’t started) except if I didn’t have it, then the rider would have had to go into town, wait for the shops to open and then arrive at the start late. At one point does the no-helping rule start...?

I lent out my tools before the start of races before, and I'm always happy to share any route knowledge/tips I have with anyone (who'll listen) before the start. Once the race starts then it's a solo effort regarding kit/getting round the route. But if people ask me where the next shop is or how far to a bothy/shelter then I'm happy to tell them, perhaps by my own strict rules I shouldn't

I'm quite a social person so the hardest thing I found when I started was the riding away from people without saying goodbye. It took me while to adjust to the fact that I'd pass/be passed by the same people over and over, especially as the singlespeed is quicker on the hills/slower on the flats than a geared bike.

After this years HT550 scratch I had a hiker hut for a few days and it had 3 beds. I offered the spare beds to other scratched riders as they'd only be going to waste otherwise so I'm quite happy to help people out.

[sean_iow]

I would have a grumble about spares etc, but things like water is different - is filling up from a stream any different to filling up from a tap?

If a tap is on a house/building and directly accessible from the highway/pavement then I would assume that they have it there for people to use so it's ok, like the taps on the southdowns way route.

If you have to ask then strictly that falls foul of the only commercial services rule?

If you just help yourself from an outside tap on a house and you have to enter the grounds than that's a criminal offense so that must be against the rules? You are stealing their water. If that sounds a bit over the top then rememebr on the Island (where I live) our water is metered so even a litre has a monetary value so helping yourself is theft. If someone had a cake on an outside table at the back of their house and no one was around would you just help yourself? I guess that depends on the cake, you could leave a note saying you were a badger and sorry for eating the cake

Of course the issue with all this is that the rules rely on people following them as there is no way to enforce them. They haven't managed to stop doping in professional road racing despite biological passports so what way is there for us to prevent someone accepting a free caramel wafer off a tunnocks rep who happens to be out walking with a bag of samples?

[Bearbonesnorm]

so what way is there for us to prevent someone accepting a free caramel wafer off a tunnocks rep who happens to be out walking with a bag of samples?

Ahh is that real? Do thy really do that? I do hope so.

[sean_iow]

Ever since I typed that I've had a craving for a caramel wafer, and I've eaten one already today.

I don't think any amount of free wafers would take your mind off having paid £20 for a rusty skewer

[Bearbonesnorm]

I don't think any amount of free wafers would take your mind off having paid £20 for a rusty skewer

I pulled out a fiver at first and he just looked at me blankly. The only other money I had was a £20 note. When he saw that, his eyes lit up and the cheeky sod asked if there was anything else I'd like to buy

[jameso]

So I read that at anything else is prohibited. That includes water from houses, food gifts, people offering their sheds/houses to sleep in or even brake pads from a member of the public. I wouldn't use any of these but as I've said perhaps I take the ethics too seriously?

No, I think you apply rules to the ethics and really rules need to be B+W, otherwise they get flexed. Toby Gadd was/is pretty much the fundamentalist on self-supported rules. My only resistance being that way with it is that for me it sucks a lot of the fun, 'magic', chance etc out of it as well as any opportunity to test my own ethics and resolve. I like the grey areas, it's harder that way. Make it very strict and it's more manageable but also less enjoyable for some, as well as more controlled in a positive way for others (for all, I suppose). All part of why I'm not really cut out to be a racer, that's all : ) And I'd go with your take on it if I were to race again.

[dlovett]

Well even if using Sean’s rules, surely you are more than welcome to help people/give them your food/tools as it’s the recipient that’s liable. I have always shared my snacks with people on all ITT’s and using the example of helping people at last years bb200. However if the rules made me liable would I not do it? Difficult question to answer. I mean not sharing my food would more likely be to my benefit as I might run out by being nice and sharing. Helping somebody across a river, again if I didn’t that would get me ahead of them, but at what moral cost. Once I have gone out of sight, how would I know they didn’t slip and drown. I would rather help them and know they are ok before carrying on. However I wouldn’t disclose that I had voluntary if it would disqualify myself, after all I’ve made an effort to compete in the event.

Perhaps Stu could clarify for the BB200 that if you assist in anyway our will not be penalised, only the recipient will, assume they are caught or reported. Doing this would mean it’s ok to help your fellow riders if they need it, without worrying about the repercussions for yourself.

[Bearbonesnorm]

Perhaps Stu could clarify for the BB200 that if you assist in anyway our will not be penalised, only the recipient will, assume they are caught or reported. Doing this would mean it’s ok to help your fellow riders if they need it, without worrying about the repercussions for yourself.

I've always tried to stress that anyone lining up should be carrying enough to be self-sufficient and shouldn't believe that anyone else out there will or should feed / cloth them or do their spannering for them. However, I believe that there'll be no wars, famines or natural disasters caused by someone offering a fellow rider certain assistance when they most need it. Maybe knowing that when push came to shove, you were able to not only get yourself to the finish but maybe also helped someone else do the same, is a prize in itself?

[slarge]

Mike and I did help someone on last years BB300 to fix their puncture. He had clearly had enough and was quite mentally broken. For me this was us helping out a fellow rider, and I would not like to have seen him DQ'd, even if he did take Tubolito tubes..... Anyway, it was Mike's spare tube he had not mine so nothing lost (and Mike's spare tube would have been along in a few minutes if Mike had punctured!! ).

I was keen for the last BB300 rider to be DQ'd for being over the 36 hour time limit - he ended up coming in 1 minute under, so that was lucky as I would have been punched I think for my interpretation of the rules......

[dlovett]

Thanks Stu, I will continue to be happy to help anybody who needs it. I might still nag them for not having the right stuff in the first pace!

Perhaps Stu could clarify for the BB200 that if you assist in anyway our will not be penalised, only the recipient will, assume they are caught or reported. Doing this would mean it’s ok to help your fellow riders if they need it, without worrying about the repercussions for yourself.

I've always tried to stress that anyone lining up should be carrying enough to be self-sufficient and shouldn't believe that anyone else out there will or should feed / cloth them or do their spannering for them. However, I believe that there'll be no wars, famines or natural disasters caused by someone offering a fellow rider certain assistance when they most need it. Maybe knowing that when push came to shove, you were able to not only get yourself to the finish but maybe also helped someone else do the same, is a prize in itself?

[middleagedmadness]

[quote=whitestone post_id=187591 time=1562590041

There's a podcast on the BBC site at the moment about rest and recovery. The interviewee notes that some pro-level athletes have unintentionally fallen foul of WADA because some vitamin supplements (expensive pee) contain trace amounts of banned substances
[/quote]

You'd be surprised Bob what's included on the wada list even 25 years ago any sports supplement we took had to be batch tested there was a list of cold meds we couldn't take and other general meds ,and I wasn't even at the very pointed end but everyone on the squad had to abide by the same rules ,it was a right ballache

[whitestone]

Here's the link to that podcast https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p07fcfds about 50mins worth.

[dlovett]

Assuming there is no testing at the bb200 this year, anybody got a good epo supplier!!

[fatbikephil]

As we've touched on the subject of substances / doping, what would people put in those categories? From what I know of road cycling, things are pretty strict and a certain level of what may seem a mundane or everyday substance would be seen as cheating.

I guess you would have to follow the UCI rules as to what is or isn't doping as they have done the most research on it. Cue can of worms opening and of course there is no way to enforce it so once again comes down to ethics, good will and us all being jolly good sports.

Remember the only real rule - don't be a dick....

[sean_iow]

Assuming there is no testing at the bb200 this year, anybody got a good epo supplier!!

Evening Primrose Oil? You can buy it in Boots

As for river crossings, just because you're not helping someone doesn't mean you can't wait to see if they get across safely. Better still, if you arrive at a river with another rider then send them in first to check how deep/fast it is

[dlovett]

Better still, if you arrive at a river with another rider then send them in first to check how deep/fast it is

I’m liking the way you roll sir!

[chris n]

The problem as I see it is caused by people that insist on racing each other. If you all just went for a bike ride rather than getting competitive none of this would be a problem.

[fatbikephil]

The problem as I see it is caused by people that insist on racing each other. If you all just went for a bike ride rather than getting competitive none of this would be a problem.

[Cheeky Monkey]

... anyone ... should be carrying enough to be self-sufficient and shouldn't believe that anyone else out there will or should feed / cloth them or do their spannering for them. However, I believe that there'll be no wars, famines or natural disasters caused by someone offering a fellow rider certain assistance when they most need it. ....

[gairym]

The problem as I see it is caused by people that insist on racing each other. If you all just went for a bike ride rather than getting competitive none of this would be a problem.