Warned of personal liability at a cafe ???

[Adventurer]

Went to a cafe today that is located within a very popular area for outdoor activities. Such as walkers, cyclists, horse riders, runners etc....

Have been going for years to this cafe and see many cyclists.

They have an area to park your bike but it is just a big log with cut outs for tyres. No where to put your lock. If you park it here you cannot lock your bike.
The cafe is indoors and large outdoor area. I put my bike next to where I was sitting outside as you cannot see the bike park area where I was sitting. Around the area there is a large number of bikes stolen as it’s a popular MTB trail area.

On this occasion I went to order and was informed by the server that because I had not parked my bike in the designated area and anyone else was to injure themselves when walking past my bike I would be held personally liable for injuries caused.

Apparently an older person walked past a bike and fell over and broke a limb. I was told that the cafe has been told (due to health and safety) to inform every cyclist that does not park in the designated area that they are personally liable for injuries and not the cafe.

However, the cafe do not provide any secure area to put your lock on if you do carry one. As we know some of the MTBs and road bikes cost more than cars. So no way will they store there bikes where they cannot see them.

The only thing I would say, is the way I was told made me feel uncomfortable and unwelcome, like I was being blamed for another cyclists actions.


Not sure of the real legal issues with the above, any thoughts and have you had similar warnings elsewhere?


Is it just cyclists that all get tarred with the same brush? If someone trips over a dog at the cafe do all the dog owners get a verbal liability warning, or if someone trips over a bag, do all those with bags get issued with a verbal liability warning?

[Pirahna]

Leave a Trip Advisor review and don't go back.

[middleagedmadness]

Wouldn't be birches valley by any chance? If so it's not just outside the cafe there's been a good few taken from inside vans too

[Adventurer]

Leave a Trip Advisor review and don't go back.

Even though I’ve been going since I was a child, I was made to feel very unwelcome. Yes, I probably won’t go again though.

It was just strange, you go to order a coffee and the first thing I was being told was about my personal injury liability responsibilities.

Never known anything like it.

I’m interested in whether this sort of thing has any legal backing? She said that health and safety executive had told her to tell every cyclists verbally of there responsibilities of causing injuries to others and by doing so, thus removes liability from the cafe.

Is this legally correct?

[Adventurer]

Wouldn't be birches valley by any chance? If so it's not just outside the cafe there's been a good few taken from inside vans too

No it not. It’s not birches valley.

I did not want to say which cafe it was.

[johnnystorm]

Wouldn't be birches valley by any chance? If so it's not just outside the cafe there's been a good few taken from inside vans too

No it not. It’s not birches valley.

I did not want to say which cafe it was.

Please do to save us the trouble of going there.

[Ray Young]

Unless the bike fell on the older person causing them to fall I don't see how it was the bike owners fault. If the person walked into the bike then fell the fault was his not the bike owner, doesn't matter where the bike was parked. Just my opinion.

[Adventurer]

Unless the bike fell on the older person causing them to fall I don't see how it was the bike owners fault. If the person walked into the bike then fell the fault was his not the bike owner, doesn't matter where the bike was parked. Just my opinion.

From what I was told by the cafe. An elderly person walked past a bike, they caught the bike, they fell to the floor and broke a limb.

[Alpinum]

Just 1.5 h ago, we were told that we could push our fatbikes (tyres still covered with snow) through the restaurant where we had a hot chocolate and some cake (really, really good apple cake and tasty cream), to get access to the cablecar back down to the valley (not possible to ride a bike down there in winter).
Only to keep us from pushing the bike up some stairs.

15 min ago we got some lovely advice and help from the train conductor due limited space from loads of skis.

Ohh... and for the cable car we didn't have to pay the full price, just 'cause they don't see many fatbikers up there.

This is the place:
https://www.sunnbuel.ch/de/w/wintererlebnisse

After all, it's cheery friday

I hope you get some positive experiences soon too...

[Bearbonesnorm]

From what I was told by the cafe. An elderly person walked past a bike, they caught the bike, they fell to the floor and broke a limb.

Wanna be more f*ckin' careful then, don't thee*

Did the elderly person pay for the damage to the bike?

It all smacks of no one taking personal responsibility ... something we're getting far too good at in this country. What if I fell over a rucksack, walking stick or handbag? Would they then be given a 'safe' place? WTF.

*I've just cleared up 3l of paint Dee's knocked onto the new bathroom floor - being careful is right up there on my list at present.

[Adventurer]

From what I was told by the cafe. An elderly person walked past a bike, they caught the bike, they fell to the floor and broke a limb.

Wanna be more f*ckin' careful then, don't thee*

Did the elderly person pay for the damage to the bike?

It all smacks of no one taking personal responsibility ... something we're getting far too good at in this country. What if I fell over a rucksack, walking stick or handbag? Would they then be given a 'safe' place? WTF.

*I've just cleared up 3l of paint Dee's knocked onto the new bathroom floor - being careful is right up there on my list at present.

I agree.

She actually said that because she had told me of my personal liability verbally it now removed the cafe owners of any liabilty.

So by saying verbally to me that I’m fully responsible of any injuries can it therefore remove another personal legal liabilty.

It’s just a bizarre situation that I’ve never experience before.

If they now have to tell every cyclist verbally, it could reduce the amount of cyclists that feel welcome to go again.

[Bearbonesnorm]

The cafe will have public liability insurance ... it's in place for instances exactly like this. Telling a customer that they'll be liable for something happening to another customer, doesn't remove the liabilty from the cafe for accidents that happen on their property. Trouble with insurance is that no one wants a claim making against theirs, so people will try whatever they can to pass the buck from pillar to post.

[fatbikephil]

'Because of health and safety'
The statement of the dim witted who don't understand health and safety law, hazard identification, risk management, or common sense.

If you park your bike somewhere (or anything else for that matter) and someone trips over it, there is no blame as there is no negligence. If you own premises and someone parks there bike and then someone else trip over it, guess what there is no blame as there is no negligence.

Its easy and yet so many people seem to struggle with this concept. Some of these numpties should try managing construction projects. then they would quickly learn about hazard and risk management. Vote with your feet, don't go back.

[Bearbonesnorm]

If you own premises and someone parks there bike and then someone else trip over it, guess what there is no blame as there is no negligence.

A company trying to make a claim could argue that not having a designated cycle parking area was negligent and contributed to the accident.

[Lazarus]

I’m interested in whether this sort of thing has any legal backing?

I cannot really see it as the issue Generally one cannot walk into a stationary object, injure oneself as a result, and then blame the inanimate stationary object for the accident.*

The only way I can see is if the object was left recklessly or in manner that caused a risk - say you had to walk into a road or some such but even that is tenuous
I suggest we all ram parked cars, on our bikes, with no occupants in them and start suing the owners
* i am sure you can leave it in a reckless manner or a manner where it can be argued you needlessly endangered others but i think this is going to take effort and still not certain of winning [ if you saw it you need to avoid it if you did not then its your fault], even a bike fully across a path can be avoided.

[voodoo_simon]

Leave a Trip Advisor review and don't go back.

Mail them directly before going down route.

Me? If I’ve been a regular somewhere for a long time, I’d speak with the owner direct and point out how it may affect their business. Perhaps guide them with some suitable bike station that bikes can be locked to.

If I wasn’t a regular there, then I’d probably find somewhere else to eat unless their cake was particularly good

[Jurassic pusher]

When you get a verbal instruction, tell them you don`t speak Engish!

[middleagedmadness]

Stu please please don't start me on people not owning up to their responsibility the thread will turn in to a full blown rant over this feckin claim culture what seems to exist what happened to a feckin accident is a feckin accident ,going to take blood pressure tablets now

[Adventurer]

Is going for a coffee at a cafe worth the hassle of being told I’m going to be responsible legally for another persons accident?

I understood the sad compensation culture but what I experienced today was a step too far

[fatbikephil]

If you own premises and someone parks there bike and then someone else trip over it, guess what there is no blame as there is no negligence.

A company trying to make a claim could argue that not having a designated cycle parking area was negligent and contributed to the accident.

But there is no requirement in law for a visitor facility to have a designated cycle parking facility so they would be pishing in the wind. So not having a bike park might be a bit rubbish but not negligent. Don't forget people have a responsibility to look after themselves (and look where they are going)

[middleagedmadness]

Is going for a coffee at a cafe worth the hassle of being told I’m going to be responsible legally for another persons accident?

I understood the sad compensation culture but what I experienced today was a step too far

It wasn't meant at you mate ,it was meant at the old fecker who didn't look where he was walking , and at the cafe person who is shirking what in my belief is the little responsibility he has , surely if he got caught in a dog lead would the cafe tell all dog owners they are not allowed to be outside the cafe ,when I was climbing and my belayer didn't here me shout take I didn't put a claim in against him (or anyone)for the year I had off work or the bent leg I've got , I wàs up there of my own free will ,so if I fell it was my own bad luck ( or maybe he did hear me and I'd p##sed him off earlier )

[macinblack]

If you own premises and someone parks there bike and then someone else trip over it, guess what there is no blame as there is no negligence.

A company trying to make a claim could argue that not having a designated cycle parking area was negligent and contributed to the accident.

If they really did have a visit from HSE, I would have though their advice would be more along these lines rather than telling staff to give a verbal disclaimer. Surely a real H&S bod would have told them to put signs up if that was their genuine advice.

Quite agree with everyone else, a responsibly positioned cycle is not going to attract any liability as actually there is a limit to what wukfittery the law is sympathetic to.

[ripio]

I doubt very much the HSE got involved, they only tend to deal with serious incidents.
Local councils deal with stuff like this.

[BigdummySteve]

Really? I’d if either tell them to feck off and keep their coffee or if feeling unusually eloquent go on a long diatribe about said coffee temperature, friction coefficient of floor coverings, protruding table legs,risk of tripping over old(er) people and perhaps even a deeply moving conversation about the meaning of life.

FFS (please feel free to insert THE photo)

PS I’d also add them to the list

[In Reverse]

'Because of health and safety'
The statement of the dim witted who don't understand health and safety law, hazard identification, risk management, or common sense.

If you park your bike somewhere (or anything else for that matter) and someone trips over it, there is no blame as there is no negligence. If you own premises and someone parks there bike and then someone else trip over it, guess what there is no blame as there is no negligence.

Its easy and yet so many people seem to struggle with this concept. Some of these numpties should try managing construction projects. then they would quickly learn about hazard and risk management. Vote with your feet, don't go back.

I manage construction projects and disagree with the emboldened bit.

It's the responsibility of the cafe to ensure the safety (as far as reasonably practicable) of the people who work and visit there.

If someone trips over a bike at the cafe the injured party would go to see a personal injury lawyer who would serve notice of a claim against the cafe. The cafe would inform their insurer, the insurer would offer the injured party three or four increasing offers to settle, with the claim most likely being settled before it gets to court. The insurer pays up and the cafe's premiums go up.

The likelihood off the injured party succeeding in a claim against the cyclist is significantly smaller. I'd say it's very unlikely.

I doubt very much the HSE got involved, they only tend to deal with serious incidents.

Agree with this. Suspect the member of staff had get some wires crossed or there's been some Chinese whispers. The "verbal disclaimer" which they'd been told would pass liability onto the cyclist would carry pretty much zero legal weight.

When you get a verbal instruction, tell them you don`t speak Engish!

By far the best bit of advice in the thread.