Entry to Events

[whitestone]

Not wishing to derail the Braunton 150 thread.

What do folk think is the optimum setup for entering events? There's a few around: on-line "click and forget; qualifying events; postal entry; turn up on the day.

On-line entry whilst convenient for the organiser has become very much a lottery for the more popular events like the 'Ard Moors, Three Peaks CX, even Stu and Dee's Winter event and WRT can "sell out" (in the no tickets left sense) in short order. The big problem is precisely that it's so easy that there's little commitment - enter payment details, tick the "I have read and understood whatever you've written" box and click "Enter". Six months later and the event is looming and some realise that they haven't actually done any training or whatever ...

Postal entry is similar but there's a bit more process required. I'm not sure what the no-show rate for on-line entry is but typically 10% of postal pre-entries in fell races don't turn up on the day.

Qualified entry as done by AlanG for the Highland Trail is probably only manageable for smaller fields. Some of the longer (Three Peaks) and more committing fell races (Jura) do it, you have to have raced a couple of long category 'A' races to be considered. While the numbers are greater than for the HT, the number of runners is still fairly small and a large proportion of the field are "known" in the community so it's usually just checking the unfamiliar names. Sticking with the HT, Alan does like to have a mixture of men, women, ride veterans, first timers, UK and foreign nationals so to some extent there are quotas.

Entry on the day - fine for small events but not practical when facilities are limited and a couple of hundred turn up!

The point about quotas and entry criteria is an interesting one: make it too restrictive and you just end up with the same names and the event becomes stale or seen as elitist. Be inflexible with the quotas and you'll end up with unsold entries.

I think a quota/lottery system is probably fairest: have a limited time period to let people enter, split into male/female, new/returning riders, etc. Reserve some places for past winners, marshalls/helpers from previous years then draw lots for each quota plus some reserves. Notify the successful applicants but they have to confirm their attendance X weeks in advance otherwise they lose their place to one of the reserves. Dunno how easy it would be to do.

[ScotRoutes]

Any larger events I've been involved with just have an accepted DNS-rate and allow over-subscription to cope with this. Like airlines do.

The pre-screened quota system definitely IS elitist but that has some major advantages when the event is likely to be very committing and/or remote as there's then a better chance that the participants will be able to handle the risks.

[Bearbonesnorm]

It really can be a difficult thing Bob and there's so many variables between events that there's probably no one size solution. From my point of view the on-line entry system works as well as any other. The WRT will never sell out because we have the facilities to (largely) cope with any number of riders. The Winter Event can sell out but it's usually over the course of a few weeks rather than days or even hours - if you want to ride it and don't, chances are you were just way too slow / forgetful . The BB200 is a different thing and as people know, will and does fill up in around 4 hours. In theory, we could increase the number of entries available but in practice it's not really feasible ... the facilities aren't there and in truth, I think it would lose a certain something if 80 riders increased to 120, 200 or whatever but as I say, that's one event and others will be different. I don't acrively vet riders for the BB200 but on occassion, I will try and put someone off and steer them towards something else.

I tend to expect a no show of around 12% to 15% at any event but that can vary wildly with weather conditions, etc. Just turning up on the day simply wouldn't work ... firstly, there's no rider commitment, so turn-out would likely be very poor if conditions were bad. Catering would be a lottery with no winner and the chances of being out of pocket would rise considerably.

[whitestone]

It just so happens that today (probably runners still out on the course as I type) there's a local fell race that has grown quite significantly in numbers over recent years. English Nature stepped in and limited the field to 400. The organiser knows from his own figures that there'll be roughly 10% no-show so he allows 440 entries.

I suppose that parking at the community centre is something of a limiter in the case of the Winter Event and the BB200 and apart from the public car park there's not much "overflow" available in the village. Ultimately the ability of any location to handle large numbers of people (and their cars) will limit the size of the event.

EOD only really works if there are no facilities, some of the very low key fell races are like this. Like you say, catering would be a nightmare.

Pre-vetting, qualifiers, etc. is a fine line to tread and there's a bit of judgement involved in deciding if someone's capable of pushing themselves a little bit or they are biting off too much.

[Bearlegged]

I think a quota/lottery system is probably fairest: have a limited time period to let people enter, split into male/female, new/returning riders, etc. Reserve some places for past winners, marshalls/helpers from previous years then draw lots for each quota plus some reserves. Notify the successful applicants but they have to confirm their attendance X weeks in advance otherwise they lose their place to one of the reserves. Dunno how easy it would be to do.

Steve Peat's Steel City DH race does this, it seems to work well.

[Chew]

I think a quota/lottery system is probably fairest: have a limited time period to let people enter, split into male/female, new/returning riders, etc. Reserve some places for past winners, marshalls/helpers from previous years then draw lots for each quota plus some reserves. Notify the successful applicants but they have to confirm their attendance X weeks in advance otherwise they lose their place to one of the reserves. Dunno how easy it would be to do.

I'd agree with you Bob, although it would probably take a bit of organising.

The issue with events which sell out in hours, is that a number of people enter on a whim and then subsequently drop-out, and deny those people who have the ability/commitment the opportunity to participate.

[Bearbonesnorm]

I think for smaller events it'd be reasonably easy to do but deciding on place allocation might be tricky ... how many for vets, how many for new riders, how many for women, etc? Depending which group people fall into, they might feel hard done by. In some respects a free for all seems fairer?

[Chew]

I think for smaller events it'd be reasonably easy to do but deciding on place allocation might be tricky ... how many for vets, how many for new riders, how many for women, etc?

It may take a bit of tinkering with, but something like 60% Vets, 10% Women, 30% new, would probably give you a good split, but as a guess thats wont be too far away from where the split has historically been by just leaving it to chance.

In some respects a free for all seems fairer?

Only fair if they have the ability to enter in that 4 hour window.

There could be certain sections of society who wont have access to the internet at that time. Admittedly thats probably a small number of people.

[jameso]

A timely and helpful thread and it's interesting how different events that are largely free of commercial obligations manage themselves. I'm currently (and part-time, tbh) trying to decide how to handle the 4th TNR entry so some good points here.
Last year's event had about 15% drop out rate, accounted for that when the number limit was set and if all had showed up it should have been OK anyway. Not bad for a free event but I did/do make point of repeating the self-policing, self-sustaining nature of the event and how a place taken and unused is a place taken from another rider. It worked last year and no reason not to believe it'll continue to work, especially as these things often fade in popularity in time.

Entry-wise I guess it's different for commercial events who need the convenience and early assurance of numbers, for some other events that are less commercial and better off limiting numbers there's potential to get creative with it. But I've not come up with anything 'creative' that also isn't hoop-jumping or likely to seem like a PITA or even some sort of show-boating because you can. Postal entry in the days of facebook messenger etc seems enough - I've been told even email is old-school now (though prob not to the types who still use forums!). A draw for numbers after that if there are more entries than the event can handle, seems fair.

[whitestone]

There's definitely a pressure with some events to get an entry "whatever" hence the rush when entries open. It's possible that an "entry of intent" for want of a better phrase along with something like a week's window for entry would remove that.

Blackballing those who enter but don't turn up, or even contact you to say they won't attend, by denying them entry for a year or two would put a message out to only enter if you are going to ride. A bit tough for those who have genuine reasons but it would hopefully get the message across not to be so selfish. (deliberately provocative )

James - FB Messenger, et al. are even less committing than email, just panders even more to the trivial nature of some people. If someone can't be arsed to write a letter then they probably aren't committed to riding something like the TNR.

[Bearbonesnorm]

Only fair if they have the ability to enter in that 4 hour window.

Maybe but a entry draw seems so unfair to those people who are naturally unlucky

Blackballing those who enter but don't turn up, or even contact you to say they won't attend, by denying them entry for a year or two would put a message out to only enter if you are going to ride. A bit tough for those who have genuine reasons but it would hopefully get the message across not to be so selfish. (deliberately provocative )

Granted, it's a small incentive to most people but I make a point of holding a percentage of the entry fee back for anyone withdrawing and make no refunds within 2 weeks of the event in an effort to prevent the weather watchers. Anyone simply not turning up without warning will likely find themselves with a place on future events ... mainly because it's just rude and ignorant and I've no time in my life for that bollox. Anyway, although free to enter, something like the TNR has the advantage in this respect as many people will have booked flights, time off work etc which could be a serious amount of money for some.

[Roobell7]

I have a job that is unpredictable as to when I’ll be away. In the past I’ve paid hundreds of pounds to enter events up to a year in advance and then been left out of pocket when unable to attend. In rare cases I’m lucky and have been able to defer to a later event. Now I just don’t bother with such and instead go for those that have late entry, or I can justify foregoing the fees.

In 2017 I had plenty of opportunity to ride my bike and landed back into the UK the day before the BB200 and rode well. In 2018 I’ve done 3,000 km less riding and even given the conditions felt I’d robbed someone better of the place when I bailed at midnight.

I entered the Winter Event whilst overseas but unsure when I’d next be away. The job slipped 3 weeks and I again find myself overseas with no chance of being back. I’ve already advised Stu that my entry is free to resell, or pass on. I’m happy to forgo my entry cost knowing that it will be put to good use.

My work may be unusual but is no way unique. And in the current economic environment more people are finding it difficult to plan their year ahead.

It’s understsandable why Event organisers wish to have garenteed entrants for all the reasons stated before. I’m just saying that not all no shows are because it was done on a whim, or the weathers too bad.

Andy

[jameso]

Andy, I had a few riders drop out of the TNR for similar reasons, like you they emailed a month or even a week ahead to explain and it was appreciated. I don't think anyone on the organisation side of events would ever have a problem with that, it happens and the communication is always welcome.

[boxelder]

The issue with events which sell out in hours, is that a number of people enter on a whim and then subsequently drop-out, and deny those people who have the ability/commitment the opportunity to participate.

One solution to this, for paid entries, is to have a very restrictive refund policy but email all entrants a couple of times in the approach to the event explaining that there is a reserve list and refunds are available for the next xx number of days to free up space for the reserves.

For free events, having a couple of triggers would encourage entrants to review their commitment - like having to register on Trackleaders for HT550.

[Bearbonesnorm]

It’s understsandable why Event organisers wish to have garenteed entrants for all the reasons stated before. I’m just saying that not all no shows are because it was done on a whim, or the weathers too bad.

Sorry if I implied that all riders dropping out were acting on a whim Andy - never my intention. I do realise that there are genuine and unavoidable reasons why some can't attend and they are generally the ones who let you know as early as possible ... such as yourself.

[whitestone]

Folk who can't attend and let the organiser know aren't really a problem. It's those who just assume that they don't have to who are the problem, it's just plain rude.

As boxelder says a restrictive/sliding refund policy can help.

[Roobell7]

Thanks for the replies. I didn’t take any any criticism form the earlier posts. I just wanted to put across and alternative view.

As we well know. On the BB forum pandas rule

[postierich]

Using Eventbrite for me has helped with Comms and being able to offer out any places last minute, usual no show rate is about 20% from experiences,no big deal for me as there is limited costs as such a few loos for the camping field I got it wrong last year on the #jennride18. Which event are you trying to enter Bob?

[whitestone]

Not trying to enter an event as such Rich, this thread is a sort of spinoff from the Braunton 150 one where it was starting to digress on to this subject.