How Much !

[Mart]

I can completely understand the frustration of the locals on the likes of the NC500 route as they try to go about their normal daily business.

From what I saw Colin, people in the North West were tapping into the NC500 and the increased tourist numbers its bringing into the region
Its now very popular and making the tourist season long and sustained, they all need food, drink and a bed and its now pretty difficult to avoid the crowds at anything that's not the depths of winter. Residents who provide a service to the tourists are seeing income increase substantially

However £'s are not everything (especially for those not catering to he tourists). The highland roads and infrastructure just isn't geared up to deal with such a surge and the high influx of people. I guess this is where some frustration is coming from

[Bearbonesnorm]

Just following on from Mart's post above. I think it's very true and something of a catch 22 situation. There was a meeting of 'tourist industry types' locally, with the aim of seeing whether they could devise ways of bringing more people to the area. I'm not sure whether they could fully understand my point when I said, the area has nothing to offer except nothing. It's the very lack of people that make the area special and to a degree provides it with a usp. If you start to increase visitor numbers, you've lost the unique appeal and now have even less to offer. An area like ours will never receive a lot of visitors, so you need to better serve those who love the area for what it is and not try and draw new visitors by spoling what you have ... I think that makes sense

[pistonbroke]

I understand your point Stu, having spent over 40 years exploring the area where you live, the ability to spend multiple days out in the hills on the bike or walking and not see another soul is pretty special if that's your thing.
I watched tourist initiatives come and go, I was there working in a seafront pub during the miraculous summer of 1976 when Borth felt like St Tropez and it was 10 deep at the bar from opening time till the early hours. No matter how many attractions are built or £££'s are spent on marketing, it will always be the weather that brings the holidaymakers in in droves.
We've recently managed to get Netflix here and the other day I stumbled across an S4C series called Hinterland which is a detective thriller thing based around Aberystwyth, Devil's Bridge, Borth and Ponterwyd. It has brought back fond memories of the desolate beauty of the area, apart from bouts of shouting at the telly questioning why the police would go out on a call from town to Devil's Bridge and go via Cwmystwyth.
I can remember the mixed feelings I had when the trail centres at Nant yr Arian and Mach were mooted, despite having quite a lot to do with their creation, it always felt that my secret playground had been rumbled. Still, I think there's such a lot of wilderness to go at and it will still be the middle of nowhere long after we're gone.

[ScotRoutes]

I can completely understand the frustration of the locals on the likes of the NC500 route as they try to go about their normal daily business.

From what I saw Colin, people in the North West were tapping into the NC500 and the increased tourist numbers its bringing into the region
Its now very popular and making the tourist season long and sustained, they all need food, drink and a bed and its now pretty difficult to avoid the crowds at anything that's not the depths of winter. Residents who provide a service to the tourists are seeing income increase substantially

However £'s are not everything (especially for those not catering to he tourists). The highland roads and infrastructure just isn't geared up to deal with such a surge and the high influx of people. I guess this is where some frustration is coming from

Quite.

Farmers used to using the "main" road to drive their sheep from one area to the next and now can't because of the chain of Porches and motorhomes.

The owners of land adjacent to the road who can't access fields because of campervans and motorhomes parked across gates.

The transporters of goods whose journeys have been made longer (and more expensive) due to the increased traffic.

The normal commuters, many of whom have too travel a fair distance for work, also held up by increased traffic.

And that's before we get on to other issues like folk (particularly young, low earners) being priced out of the housing market.


I'm not suggesting that there aren't any advantages; The fact that local shops can now actually make enough money to survive and serve the community is a good example. However, folk "racing" through the area (by whatever means of locomotion) are contributing very little to the local economy.

[Bearbonesnorm]

I stumbled across an S4C series called Hinterland

Don't get me started on that ... really bugs me how they manage to make the place look not only bleak but somewhat 'grubby'. Although I do quite enjoy the game of 'name that valley / track / old farmhouse'

Although it's only for 1 week, the Wales Rally casts a similar shadow to the NC500 in as much as people come in their droves, seemingly abuse the place (litter, driving like tw@ts, etc) then bugger off again. Most come fully stocked with beer and food, so put very little into the local economy ... in fact, the nearest shop actually loses out as the visitors don't go and the locals who would usually go, don't go near.

[pistonbroke]

grubby
I thought that the first episode set in the Hafod Arms was exactly how I remember the place and Devil's Bridge in the winter. I agree that playing spot the potential bothy is a good game but they then seem to burn them down.

[RIP]

"Most come fully stocked with beer and food, so put very little into the local economy". That's the thing that would really put my local back up. Nobody's 'obliged' to do anything I guess, but people shouldn't then be surprised if they get a slightly frosty response to "can I park in your pub car park while I scoff my T*sco hamper?".

"nothing to offer except nothing." - what a lovely phrase! Would like to have been a proverbial fly at that meeting .

Right, time for a bath before Will Millard's on Beeb4 at 8 o'clock telling us all about a lead mine in mid-Wales - I'll be in heaven . Maybe Stu's showing him round Ceulan mine..... although it'll presumably be Cwmystwyth where they were poking about in 2000BC apparently.

[Bearbonesnorm]

I'm trying to think of another word other than 'Hipster' to describe the intended market but at £450 for 3 days guiding in the Lakes, I can't. Details seem scant bit it does read like you might get a 'campfire tea' but if you'd like a T shirt, that'll be an additional twenty quid. https://www.pannier.cc/product/lakeland ... king-tour/

I appreciate that I may be completely out of touch and without doubt, I do live in a different world but to me, this does seem somewhat over the top - after all, I'm sure Mr Munroe would guide you round the Lakes for an entire week for the price of 4 pints and a bag of scratchings

[whitestone]

Stu, that doesn't sound unreasonable* if you compare it to prices charged by mountain guides. £100-£200 per day for guiding 1 or 2 people seems to be the rate there but if you want to climb the Matterhorn then you are going to need to cough up in the region of €3000 for three days' guiding

*Not that I'd pay it.

[ton]

people pay for fashion. cycling is seen as fashionable. bikepacking is seen as niche fashion. hence the cost of these type of events.

I don't mind paying £25 or so to events like posties Jennride or mtb event, or bb events (and don't attend) but I aint never paying to ride my bike anywhere else.

lost of beer and chip butties some of them events cost.

[Moder-dye]

If you're paying to be guided that's a different thing to a commercial event cost (which usually are too steep for me to consider) surely ?

And you'd expect to pay the going daily rate for some one to guide/nanny you about for a few days and have all the logistics sorted wouldn't you?

Not that I'm ever likely to want to do a guided thing anyway.

[ScotRoutes]

Hey, folk spend thousands of pounds for something to wear on their wrists to let them know what time it is, or the cost of a house just for a means of travelling a few miles each day. I've long since given up comparing my values to others. I'm sure many of my friends look at what I've spent on bikes and other gear and can't fathom it either.

[Bearbonesnorm]

I did say that I might be out of touch ... when I 'retired' from guiding / coaching which was only a couple of years ago, the cost of a 3 day bikepacking trip was £140 inc' in that was as much gear as you needed to borrow, even a bike if required. Perhaps that makes me the idiot in this instance ... or maybe not?

Hey, folk spend thousands of pounds for something to wear on their wrists to let them know what time it is, or the cost of a house just for a means of travelling a few miles each day. I've long since given up comparing my values to others. I'm sure many of my friends look at what I've spent on bikes and other gear and can't fathom it either.

I get that Colin and you're right that cost and value are two different things and really, only the individual can judge for themselves where the line between the two is. Rightly or wrongly,I suppose what chips away at me, is the way that some quarters seem to take advantage of the interest that exists. It shouldn't bother me, I shouldn't give a toss but sadly I do ... wish I didn't.

[ScotRoutes]

Oh I understand where you are coming from. The weaponisation of bikepacking into an income stream isn't something I'm particularly happy with either but then I worry I've become a bit too precious and greedy about an activity I enjoy. Marketing campaigns designed around specific routes and a lack of imagination from folk not making up their own routes probably bugs me more.

[Growler]

It doesnt have to be expensive. We did the Moors100 for free last year. We had 120 names down and around 30 turned up. There are free/ cheap events out there. They just need supporting.

[Bearbonesnorm]

It doesnt have to be expensive. We did the Moors100 for free last year. We had 120 names down and around 30 turned up. There are free/ cheap events out there. They just need supporting.

Aye, this weekend people have paid £25 to ride, for which they'll be able to get themselves lost / found, be fed and watered and receive 'goodies' to the value of around £15 - seems like a fairly good deal to me.

Maybe, in some circles value is seen in direct relation to cost, ie, if something's expensive then it must be good and vice versa? Don't know.

[middleagedmadness]

£30 to enter a organised event where people have put effort into organising it with or without goodies is a fair price in my opinion , if it was a donation then I always feel obliged to add a little extra ,I can't justify paying ££££s to enter any event whether my circumstances were different or not , maybe it's just my way of thinking but having met people who have paid hundreds to enter events the majority haven't entered for the fun of the event but more for bragging rights that they actually enter said event ( not people from here )

[ton]

It doesnt have to be expensive. We did the Moors100 for free last year. We had 120 names down and around 30 turned up. There are free/ cheap events out there. They just need supporting.

and it was vaguely exciting. roll on this years do

[pistonbroke]

a lack of imagination from folk not making up their own routes probably bugs me more.

My view fwiw, is coloured by living a long way from the UK both physically and in terms of the reliance that can be placed on mapping. It's only when you start properly exploring an area such as that where I now live that you realise how great OS mapping is. We have detailled mapping down to 1:10,000 and I've got all these within a 50km radius of here. The problem is the lack of defined rights of way so a track may trundle along for several km then you meet a locked gate or fence with a snarling dog on the other side and have to back track.
One of the main reasons I put together the C2C ride is to give people the chance to ride a route that I know is challenging and remote without having to guess whether several hours riding up a big hill might finish up at a dead end. There aren't many trails that have 1 gate in 1,000km!
Of course this doesn't happen by accident and requires considerable time and effort in recceing. Some people might consider recouping the cost of running about but I decided early on to suck it up and enjoy the exploring.
There's a bikepacking event that is 700km down the length of Cataluña which offers a sag wagon, gps tracking, transfer to the start as it's a linear route and a riding shirt, the entry fee is €400 and it seems to be growing in popularity with about 50 riders taking part. There will always be the money rich time poor brigade that go for this type of thing.
I realise it's a big commitment in terms of time to plan a weeks trip abroad but the lacklustre response to me asking for interest in this year's trip has been disappointing. Maybe the post Brexit meltdown that's been predicted is a factor but whatever happens I'll be there in Tarragona in May even if it's only me I've got for company.(I'm used to shouting at myself)

[middleagedmadness]

There 2 reasons I haven't signed up for either c2c or tnr (and I'd love to be back in Spain riding)
1- family has to come first ,I have to ensure the family has holidays and not just me
2- I am way to slow to ride in a group and it would a diminish my enjoyment (feeling under pressure to speed up ) and also other people's feeling a slight need to wait for me either at lunch spots or along the route once the family has grown up and left home and I have more time on my hands , hopefully I'll be able to keep at nice pace and feel adequately able to ride in such groups

[Bearbonesnorm]

My view fwiw, is coloured by living a long way from the UK both physically and in terms of the reliance that can be placed on mapping. It's only when you start properly exploring an area such as that where I now live that you realise how great OS mapping is. We have detailled mapping down to 1:10,000 and I've got all these within a 50km radius of here. The problem is the lack of defined rights of way so a track may trundle along for several km then you meet a locked gate or fence with a snarling dog on the other side and have to back track.
One of the main reasons I put together the C2C ride is to give people the chance to ride a route that I know is challenging and remote without having to guess whether several hours riding up a big hill might finish up at a dead end. There aren't many trails that have 1 gate in 1,000km!
Of course this doesn't happen by accident and requires considerable time and effort in recceing. Some people might consider recouping the cost of running about but I decided early on to suck it up and enjoy the exploring.
There's a bikepacking event that is 700km down the length of Cataluña which offers a sag wagon, gps tracking, transfer to the start as it's a linear route and a riding shirt, the entry fee is €400 and it seems to be growing in popularity with about 50 riders taking part. There will always be the money rich time poor brigade that go for this type of thing.
I realise it's a big commitment in terms of time to plan a weeks trip abroad but the lacklustre response to me asking for interest in this year's trip has been disappointing. Maybe the post Brexit meltdown that's been predicted is a factor but whatever happens I'll be there in Tarragona in May even if it's only me I've got for company.(I'm used to shouting at myself)

Touching on something I said earlier, I'd be very interested to see what would happen if you began charging a not inconsiderable fee, dangled a few baubles and called it something with 'trans', 'divide' or the total number of route miles ... all 3 would be good. 'The Spanish 500 trans divide adventure ride'

[ScotRoutes]

My view fwiw, is coloured by living a long way from the UK both physically and in terms of the reliance that can be placed on mapping. It's only when you start properly exploring an area such as that where I now live that you realise how great OS mapping is

Oh - I should have made it clear in my comment that I was talking about the UK. I completely get that trying to make a route in an unfamiliar country with unfamiliar maps and different access legalities is a whole different ballpark.

Spain is very definitely on my to-do list, having done some riding in the Ronda area. It'd be a bit more relaxed pace than your C2C I reckon. Not sure I'm (currently) at the required level of fitness. Still, I'm in the fatfighters thread so let's see how 2019 pans out.

[restlessshawn]

I tend to equate the price of events to how many hours I will have to sell my soul to 'the man' to afford to enter...this usually results in me not entering. To be honest in general I would rather spend evenings pondering over maps then going and see how it goes, that's all part of the fun.

Would love to do TNR but currently too unfit and I've abandoned any riding in groups as I hate lagging behind

[pistonbroke]

Don't think I haven't considered it Stu! In fact quite by accident my route could rightfully be described as The Spanish Divide. The route runs parrallel to the Rio Ebro which is the longest river totally in Spain and flows out into the Med near here, rising 800km NW in the Cantabrian mountains near Santander, during the 3rd day we ride in the Alto Tajo Natural Park, the RioTajo becomes the Tagus when it gets to Portugal and flows into the Atlantic at Lisbon, it's the longest river on the Iberian peninsula , we spend day 5 along the Rio Duero which is the river that Porto is on, again flowing into the Atlantic so it's a definite watershead ride. My problem is my aversion to social media, I think of Twatbook and Instascam like pissing in the wind, you only have to be pointing the wrong way or for the wind to change to be covered in something not very pleasant.
Colin, you've no worries on the fitness front, we had 70+ year old last year and he was fine, it's all about determination and positive attitude, there's plenty of time to get it done.

[voodoo_simon]

^^^
Why is every bike event now called Pan, Trans or Divide?!

If a race doesn’t have those words in the title, does it even exist?!