Steel 29er choices

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whitestone
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Re: Steel 29er choices

Post by whitestone »

I've a Mk1 Solaris - fantastic bike, done everything from Alpine trails to the HT550 on it. Will just take 650b+ wheels/tyres but that wheelsize is partly what led the development of the Mk2, look on the Cotic blog for more detail. At the time I bought it I also considered a Stanton Switchback but got a ride on the Solaris first so it never had a chance :grin:

My wife has a Mk1 Stooge (bought off Mike on here). Again she really likes it, at the moment her Cotic Soul isn't getting a look in. I think the newer frames can take a tapered steerer so you aren't as limited when it comes to choice of forks. I had a short ride on the latest version at the Lakes Bike Fest last month and it felt very stable, the only change I made was setting the saddle height.

There's a lot on here with one, or both, of the above bikes so either they are pretty much sorted or we are all sheep with wool over our eyes :oops: The current generation of British designed hardtails (not all are built here of course), specifically the steel models, are very good and it's a matter of finding one that suits you. I wasn't even looking for a quality HT when I swung a leg over a Solaris but it instantly felt "right" for me.
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Alpinum
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Re: Steel 29er choices

Post by Alpinum »

FLV wrote:Thanks again guys.

Stanton is interesting. I was semi interested in the sherpa from when it came available. I had one of thier first frames (26er switch back?) It was a good bike.
Hi Dave
Same here with the 29er Sherpa. I was close to getting one.

How about the steel Kona Honzo? One, if not the most fun hardtail I've ridden sofar. Size L is long. I'd need a 30 - 40 mm stem and saddle slammed all the way forwards for all day comfort, which would make the bike even more responsive and fun. One of those bikes you feel you have to go fast all the time.

This summer I changed the head angle of two bikes, from 66.6 to 65.1 and from 68 to 66°. It has much improved the general handling as well as the climbing and descending capabilities of both bikes. Any terrain or riding speed. For gravel and road travel it may not be the best choice(?), but for stuff like doctors gate, cut gate etc. I'm convinced pretty much every bike would ride better with a flatter HA. Bold companies have already done so and others will follow. Mix that with short chainstays to get a confidence inspiring stability without loosing playful responsiveness.

Regarding short chainstays; we all have read that long chainstays are more comfy than short ones and that the front rises later... On two bikes (one beeing the new Krampus) I got to try different positions and the only noticeable change was in the handling characteristics, not comfort. Ride was just as 'harsh' (both actually quite soft) in the long setting and if the front would've risen later on climbs I can't tell for I rode/ride them ssp.

What amazed me most though, was how dead the bikes felt in the long chainstay settings. Just a few mm made quite the difference. Due to ssp setup on the Krampus I'm stuck at 450 mm at the moment and it feels horribly lame, but when setting it up with a different cog, it was at 435 mm and I loved it.

<420 mm may be über short, but in the Honzo's case you can adjust it to about 430 mm. Sweetspot on many bikes (including race worthy 160 mm 29er beasts) seems to be around 430 - 435 mm.

All this is highly subjective and you're not me but we both like to let it go downhill and I was much put off by all the bikes I testrode the last 18 months with chainstays beyond 440 mm. They might be super fast on straightish tracks and help on climbs, but they just feel dead. Dead, boring, free of life.

Oh, and if lose control on the rear wheel in a loose turn, a long front end and short back end will respond beautifully to your weight transfer to the front.

I could go on for hours and see much benefit in modern geometries from a practical pov and believe most companies will follow this movement.

Not because it's cool or sh!t, but because in mountainbiking terrain it makes sense.
Even BMC have finnaly realised that long chainstays on their Fourstroke (XC race/marathon full sus 29er) were rubbish.

If I were you, I'd look for mid range reach and head tube length you've felt comfy with lately, then a frame with a head tube capable of taking an angle set head set (many are) and adjustaböe chainstay length or one at <440 mm.

Depending on seatpost quite a lot of comfort can be had. Modern steel frames come with biggish diam. seat tubes. You could aways use a collar and go with a skinnier and more flexible seatpost for more compliance.
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metalheart
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Re: Steel 29er choices

Post by metalheart »

What size LS geo did you get?
Large, with 35mm stem. Finally a bike that’s the right size for me, not an in between :-bd
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Solo
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Re: Steel 29er choices

Post by Solo »

metalheart wrote:
What size LS geo did you get?
Large, with 35mm stem. Finally a bike that’s the right size for me, not an in between :-bd
Thanks. I am always between sizes it feels.
Pat
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Re: Steel 29er choices

Post by Pat »

I've always had a hankering for a Ritchey P29er......
mtbmarkymark
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Re: Steel 29er choices

Post by mtbmarkymark »

Big fan of the the Salsa El Mariachi
i have a steel XL. A skinny tubeset gives a nice ride, Alternator dropouts makes it versatile. Will take the alternator rack
having said that finding one won't be easy, it took me 6 months
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Re: Steel 29er choices

Post by Solo »

Isn't the El Mar a steeper HA like my KM Ops?
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PaulB2
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Re: Steel 29er choices

Post by PaulB2 »

Would a genesis longitude frame work?
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sean_iow
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Re: Steel 29er choices

Post by sean_iow »

Solo wrote:Isn't the El Mar a steeper HA like my KM Ops?
I used an angleset headset on my Salsa Selma to slacken the HA, all good so far and rides just like my Genesis which had the slacker HA I was copying. In fact I'd say it rides better but there's obviously other things contributing to that as well as the HA.
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Growler
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Re: Steel 29er choices

Post by Growler »

Does it have to be steel? Six months ago I would not have typed that. Ive been a steel fan for 30 years and have munched my way through most of the bikes mentioned here. Solaris is great, the Sherpa brilliant, Swift was fun and sweet looking, various Salsas etc. All have been great bikes. A few months back I got my first alloy frame for over 20 years, a Santa Cruz Chameleon, and was expecting to lose my fillings before christmas. Well, i've done scary steep stuff in the woods with younger lads on 160mm enduro rigs (and surprisingly whupped their asses), done 60 mile XC all dayers, commuted, trail centres and been to the local BMX track and i have to say its been brilliant in every respect. Its lighter, faster, less tiring and seems more efficient than the others I've mentioned. At 120mm with sensible rather than radical geometry it works well in most situations and climbs as well as it goes down stupidly steep stuff. And coupled with decent carbon rims and big volume tyres, its not shaking me to death and rides quite steel- like if that makes any sense. Its also got extra bottle bosses on the down tube, and although i've yet to use it for bikepacking, its clear that was also factored into its design. I'm really quite taken by it and have yet to find any flaws. I really didnt expect to get on with an alloy frame, so maybe worn thinking about?
Gummikuh
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Re: Steel 29er choices

Post by Gummikuh »

I do like the look of the new MasonBikes-InSearchOf, daft name but looks to be about perfect, although be prepared for the volume of the green colour, the grey one looks more sensible.

https://masoncycles.cc/products/insearchof-frameset

At the moment this will be available around December, not a lot of info but https://singletrackworld.com/gritcx/201 ... e-to-help/ has a decent review.

I run a Longitude and just love it, its my go to bike for everything.
kazafaza
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Re: Steel 29er choices

Post by kazafaza »

Mk2 Krampus has a slacker HA and you could fit 120mm boings. 142x12mm at the back, no need for the front mech thingy, has all the mounts for racks etc...

Perhaps the Longitude, the yellow/green one that was offered with sus-corrected alloy forks? That's QR only though, but again rack mounts et al...
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FLV
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Re: Steel 29er choices

Post by FLV »

Hi all,

Thanks for all the responses.

Hi Steven, I will drop you a mail thanks.

Hi Gian, lots of interesting thoughts there mate. I agree with what you are saying. I have a SC Highball at the moment, it does ride well. It doesn't have a massively long reach but does have short ish stays. I use 120mm Pike on it and with the seat down its really nice on descents. Limited a little by its 2.2 max tyre (on the 30mm rims I have) it would be better on 2.4's. I had a Krampus previously too and it was great with a 120mm fork and the back wheel right forwards. It annoyed me almost as muh as it made me smile though and in the end although I enjoyed 29+ off road I didnt get on with enough for the road sections on that bike.
Honzo I always liked the look of, but am in between sizes. The reach is just too big on the L and the seat tube too short on the M, to the point where id need a +450mm seatpost.
I'll look into the angleset as that could be interesting.

Thanks for suggestions on the Vagabond and the Mason, but drop bars off road are not for me. I have a salsa Warbird which is massively underused. I dont like descending on them. Not saying its wrong but its not really for me.

Stooge isnt for me either, I cant get on with the extra top tube width. But thanks.

I still have an El Mariachi too, built with rigid forks. Its a nice bike. But not the fun-factory machine I think I have in mind.

I'll have a look at the chameleon. I was looking at steel as that seems to be the current itch I want to scratch, but i'll not rule it out.

Ritchey has brought back the ultra, that looks nice too.
ianfitz
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Re: Steel 29er choices

Post by ianfitz »

18 have a new hardtail in their workshop series. They are sized by length rather than S, M, L. Designed to be low though, for a dropper post. Available in 4 sizes and both wheel sized.

Not much space for a frame bag but a very fun bike.
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Charliecres
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Re: Steel 29er choices

Post by Charliecres »

Has anyone mentio ed the Stif Morf?

Seems like it might fit the bill
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Alpinum
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Re: Steel 29er choices

Post by Alpinum »

Stif Morf :-bd

If only it also came on 29" wheels...

Not so sure if the thread opener is after a bike with such characteristics though...

Yet, they are incredibly fun, fast, stable and astonishingly and also work on less than stupid steep and fast single tracks. For riders coming from more traditional geo's, it'll take a moment to get the hang of it.
Loading the wheels right on a bike with a slack head angle and short chainstay is quite different from classic XC geo's (or whatever you call them).

I rode a Last Fastforward V2 shortly after they started shipping and heck, what an amazing frame. Rode a version with 45 mm more reach than I'm used to paired with a 32 mm stem (mostly I ride 50 or 40 mm) and loved how it cut corners, had grip in the chatter and felt much more comfy on hits than my more classic geo steel bike.
It was a burly and heavy build (but quite sure the frame is of rather regular weight) but I can't see it being rubbish for long days. Just have to make sure you run a long seat post (better a dropper) and very short stem. Due to the mostly comparably very steep seat angles, you'll not be stretched as much as you'd think from looking at the numbers. The short stem will give a very responsive feel to the front and help with an upright position when seated.

I'd love to have a go on a Pipedream Moxie.
BTR's Ranger looks to be fun too.

Actually, why bother with a Stanton Sherpa when you can have a Stanton Switch9er..?

I used to need a few runs in the bikepark (15 - 20 km & 1800 - 2400 m vert loss) to get back into riding my former DH bike (62.2 ° head angle) right, despite coming from a rather slack 160 mm bike already...

So, if you're not averse of what may seem like freakish geo, it's well worth a organising testride (make it a few days to settle into the feel of the long and low geo) on one of those long things.

I'm waiting to see what Last is up to (likely a Fastforward V3 beginning of 2019). Perhaps it's worth a wait if interested too...
Jamesh
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Re: Steel 29er choices

Post by Jamesh »

I'm counting the days til November as have a Ritchey Ultra on order. Ticks a lot of your boxes geo wise, looks lovely too. Downside is boost only
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FLV
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Re: Steel 29er choices

Post by FLV »

Jamesh wrote:I'm counting the days til November as have a Ritchey Ultra on order. Ticks a lot of your boxes geo wise, looks lovely too. Downside is boost only
It does indeed. I know you can space hubs etc. But that's just annoying.

I also got excited about it being designed for a 120mm fork, but the specs say a-c 507mm which is standard for a 27.5 a-c rockshox reba.
A RS pike at 120mm slackens everything by a degree and reduces the reach 12mm too.

Fox 34's are a similar story
27.5 boost is 525mm
29 is 530mm

ah well, probably makes sod all difference in the end :grin:
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In Reverse
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Re: Steel 29er choices

Post by In Reverse »

Also not completely relevant because of boost spacing and mildly different geo, but I am absolutely besotted with this frame. 68deg head angle, tiny chainstay length, looks like SO much fun. :shock: Big soft spot for Kona too.

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Swore to myself I wasn't going to buy another bike this year. FFS. :roll:
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metalheart
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Re: Steel 29er choices

Post by metalheart »

Sorry, double post thing screw up...
Last edited by metalheart on Sat Oct 27, 2018 8:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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metalheart
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Re: Steel 29er choices

Post by metalheart »

metalheart wrote:From Cy at Cotic on wheelbase... (sorry about large text dump but I found it interesting):
A few more people have questioned the wheelbase on the bike. I have always thought that people get a little too hung up on wheelbase. I have never once designed a bike with a wheelbase in mind, or an intention to keep it a particular length. Wheelbase is a dimension that occurs at the end of the process when everything else more important is established and set. It's much, much more important to have the weight balanced between the wheels. Hence the chainstay length to balance the front centre.

The RocketMAX (even in the XL size I ride) feels like you would expect a shorter wheelbase bike to feel, because when you are stood up, you are on the vertical turning axis of the bike. When a bike has a long front centre and really short rear end, the turning axis of the bike is in front of the riders centre of mass, which makes those bikes feel ponderous. The force feedback they give you is that something is moving around in front of you. That kinda 'wheelbarrow' feeling. That's what's given long bikes a bad name in my opinion. I distinctly remember being on a ride early in the life of the 2nd longshot 29er prototype last year (the green RocketMAX with black rear end you might have seen if you saw me out and about over summer/winter 2017). We were at Wharncliffe on some of the really tight, steep, berms over towards where Max, JP and the Tree Tings/Clay Spades guys sculpt their masterpieces. And despite the bike being quite a bit longer and slacker than my first prototype (which I'd never quite got working right), this bike was whipping around these tight berms with hardly any need to 'muscle' it in, felt easy to whip it through these tight turns. It was one of the main lightblub moments on the project. When I realised I had got the weight distribution right, and the bike was suddenly around me instead of 'out front' or 'all at the back'. It didn't feel long, or short, it just felt right.

You can't just focus on one number then say it's rad. It's a whole system. The iteration I tried before the final geometry was settled was a degree steeper at the front and shorter front centre. It should have theoretically made it feel livelier in tight trails, and I'll be honest, I was a little concerned about customer reaction to the geometry I was leaning towards so I pulled it back a little. It felt awful. Like REALLY awful. The front end felt too tall and unconnected. It felt really light on the steering without enough feedback. Really spooky feeling. It was a real wake up call because up to that point, everything Longshot-esque I had built and tried had been really lovely to ride, even if they weren't spot on.
But then again, I’m pretty heavily invested in the LS 29er hardtail thing... :oops:
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Alpinum
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Re: Steel 29er choices

Post by Alpinum »

FLV wrote: Honzo I always liked the look of, but am in between sizes. The reach is just too big on the L and the seat tube too short on the M, to the point where id need a +450mm seatpost.
I'll look into the angleset as that could be interesting.
Seeing there are more inputs on long front ends and some interest in the Honzo I come to think that perhaps it would be worth some time and effort to organise a test ride. I'm sure there's a shop in your neck of the woods that could help you out.
I think you'd be comfy on a size L.

The front length will always be tricky to pin down; seat tube angle, stem length, handle bar sweep, head angle... they all play into how long the bike feels next to reach and top tube obviously.

The issue of the short seat tubes isn't one if you run a 150 mm or longer dropper.
But as said, size L should be just fine.
The Honzo just needs a -2° angle set...
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Re: Steel 29er choices

Post by Solo »

@metalheart
Have ypu completed the Solaris full house yet?
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metalheart
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Re: Steel 29er choices

Post by metalheart »

Have ypu completed the Solaris full house yet?
Nope, in fact I’m one SolarisMAX down :shock:

The lure of shiney proved too much... :lol:
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Re: Steel 29er choices

Post by Solo »

:o :shock: :o
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